Season 4 Impressions

[Frey Pies]

"It's not going over well, either". With whom? From what I've read of reviews and fan reactions, there isn't too much of a consensus over Sansa (just like in the books, mind you). There isn't a uniformly positive response to her storyline, yes, but neither is there a uniformly negative one as I think you're suggesting.

BTW Paper Waver, do you think that LF's drunkenness in AFFC was a ploy of some kind?

From what I've seen, amongst the majority of show only fans, Sansa's development in TMatV was received very positively. I've never seen so many "Wow, Sansa was cool!" comments before." I was scouring through IGN, Facebook, AV Club, etc, and I must have read hundreds of them. I think it was generally received quite positively.

[Woman of War]

I've seen a lot of disappointment and indifference about Sansa, yes, but there are also a lot of people who are only now interested in her. Did you mean more specifically about certain sectors of the Sullied community or show viewers more generally?

Actually the show managed to get me truly interested in Sansa's story while I was rather lukewarm about her character before, I did not even bother to dislike her.

And now I am eagerly awaiting her future devlopment. Maleficient cunning Sansa had a huge part in it, before her character felt like "pity is death to fascination".

So the show must have done something right here.

[Annara Snow]

Actually the show managed to get me truly interested in Sansa's story while I was rather lukewarm about her character before, I did not even bother to dislike her.

And now I am eagerly awaiting her future devlopment. Maleficient cunning Sansa had a huge part in it, before her character felt like "pity is death to fascination".

So the show must have done something right here.

Makes me think of this Tumblr post tag:

http://thekrakensonions.tumblr.com/tagged/if-you-couldn%27t-handle-her-as-a-victim-you-don%27t-deserve-her-as-a-survivor-and-winner

# IF YOU COULDN’T HANDLE HER AS A VICTIM YOU DON’T DESERVE HER AS A SURVIVOR AND WINNER

[Woman of War]

Well, Sansa's character is not in the the story because we readers "deserve her", she is not served as politically correct reward to pacify some fans. She is one character among many who has a maybe important role to play in the story as whole, her development is not more and not less than a part of Martin's general concept.

And I am sure that Sophie Turner the actress thoroughly enjoys the new possibilities her character promises.

[Annara Snow]

Bottom line: I hate it when people think that characters must be "badass" or "kick ass" from the first moment they appear on screen to be interesting and worthwhile.

[Stannisaurus2]

Makes me think of this Tumblr post tag:

http://thekrakensonions.tumblr.com/tagged/if-you-couldn%27t-handle-her-as-a-victim-you-don%27t-deserve-her-as-a-survivor-and-winner

That opinion (and especially the "if you couldn't" tag) is ridiculous, especially considering that liking or finding a character interesting is subjective.

[Ran]

I do think that there's something to be said about the trend in some quarters for appreciation of characters being directly related to perception of their being "strong" or "bad ass" or what have you. Namely, it's a bad trend. You can like what you like, absolutely, but when people keep being attracted to affirmative figures and talk down more ambiguous ones, or see in a character of limited power or ability simply "weak" or "uninteresting", they encourage creators to produce homogeneous, "strong" characters. It reduces the discursive possibilities.

[sj4iy]

It's not about people saying "ooooh, Sansa is badass, I like her now!" It's about people saying "oooh, Sansa's actually doing something for herself, she's finally interesting!"

The two are not the same thing. And Sansa isn't an "ambiguous" character before Lysa's death...she's a perpetual victim, partly because of her own actions, partly because of circumstances beyond her control. It's frustrating and disheartening to watch season after season (or read book after book). She finally has the chance to break the cycle of abuse and disappointment, and when she does, the audience realizes that she hasn't just been a pushover the entire time- she's soaked up all if those lessons happening around her. I think people are focusing more on her costume than her performance.

[PatrickStormborn]

It's not about people saying "ooooh, Sansa is badass, I like her now!" It's about people saying "oooh, Sansa's actually doing something for herself, she's finally interesting!"

The two are not the same thing. And Sansa isn't an "ambiguous" character before Lysa's death...she's a perpetual victim, partly because of her own actions, partly because of circumstances beyond her control. It's frustrating and disheartening to watch season after season (or read book after book). She finally has the chance to break the cycle of abuse and disappointment, and when she does, the audience realizes that she hasn't just been a pushover the entire time- she's soaked up all if those lessons happening around her. I think people are focusing more on her costume than her performance.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to remember Sansa "actually doing something for herself" multiple times in the books before she becomes Alayne Stone. In particular, she puts her life at risk to meet someone who promises to help her escape, and then she continues to put herself at risk by planning her escape. Later, she finds a better alternative (Highgarden), so she again does something for herself by allying with the Tyrells. When that falls through and she is informed of her forced marriage to Tyrion, she first attempts to escape (doing something for herself, surely), and then refuses to kneel for him. She then continues to plan her escape with Dontos.

But please tell me why allying with Littlefinger (the man who was responsible for her father's death) counts as "actually doing something for herself", if allying with Dontos and the Tyrells doesn't.

[Le Cygne]

It's victim blaming, she was a hostage in wartime, and she's survived a lot longer than many characters, she must have been doing something right. Her strengths in the books were quiet ones, her courtesy armor, and goodness, and intelligence, those are the strengths that last. Her story was interesting before she put on a dress and came on to Littefinger, they just didn't show it.

She bonded with Sweetrobin over a shared love of stories (earlier, she bonded with Sandor for much the same reason, and indeed there are parallels there in the books). She's showing an interest in Lothar Brune and Mya, she spotted that he loves her before Myranda did. This is all about her being true to herself, there are many ways to be strong.

And everything Patrick Stormborn said, too. There's a reason she wasn't "interesting" on the show, they cut much of her own story.

[Ran]

Indeed, the show elided a good deal of her resistance.

[OldGimletEye]

It's victim blaming, she was a hostage in wartime, and she's survived a lot longer than many characters, she must have been doing something right. Her strengths in the books were quiet ones, her courtesy armor, and goodness, and intelligence, those are the strengths that last. Her story was interesting before she put on a dress and came on to Littefinger, they just didn't show it.

Yeah, I wonder how many POW's are seen as being "worthless" because they didn't escape from capture.

[sj4iy]

Saying that Sansa isn't an interesting character isn't the same as "victim blaming", and I find it offensive that someone would accuse me of such when talking about something like this. She's a fictional character in a fictional universe that we are supposed to care about..but she's just not that interesting story-wise as some other characters who have the ability to go out and do something. She doesn't. She's trapped for 4 seasons. Her story doesn't develop like the stories of characters around her. It's no different than people complaining about Jon Snow's storyline because he doesn't get to do the interesting stuff other characters do. He's trapped, too, and some people find that boring. I like his character, but I can easily see why others would not. Same with Sansa.

It has nothing to do with my thinking "well, she should have gone something!" She clearly couldn't. She was clearly trapped and unable to do anything. But that doesn't mean I have to find her storyline interesting.

[Stannisaurus2]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to remember Sansa "actually doing something for herself" multiple times in the books before she becomes Alayne Stone. In particular, she puts her life at risk to meet someone who promises to help her escape, and then she continues to put herself at risk by planning her escape. Later, she finds a better alternative (Highgarden), so she again does something for herself by allying with the Tyrells. When that falls through and she is informed of her forced marriage to Tyrion, she first attempts to escape (doing something for herself, surely), and then refuses to kneel for him. She then continues to plan her escape with Dontos.

But please tell me why allying with Littlefinger (the man who was responsible for her father's death) counts as "actually doing something for herself", if allying with Dontos and the Tyrells doesn't.

Both the Tyrell proposal and Dontos' (LF's) plans do not originate from Sansa. She doesn't act, she re-act against what other characters do, and in fact she does so in a completely predictable (in-universe) way, dancing to the tune of others and being a complete pawn without realizing it - rarely taking initiative. Other pawn-characters at least try to act on their own accord . But hey, she refused to kneel to Tyrion, what a thrilling tale - I am shivering with excitement.

It's victim blaming,

Yeah, I wonder how many POW's are seen as being "worthless" because they didn't escape from capture.

How we went from "I don't find Sansa's arc interesting so far" to "she is worthless" and "victim blaming" is something which I believe shall remain a mystery for all the years to come....

Anyway, just because I find this particular "non-badass" character boring does not mean that every character needs to be badass to be interesting to me. I like other characters who aren't kicking arse and taking names.

[PatrickStormborn]

Both the Tyrell proposal and Dontos' (LF's) plans do not originate from Sansa. She doesn't act, she re-act against what other characters do, and in fact she does so in a completely predictable (in-universe) way, dancing to the tune of others and being a complete pawn without realizing it - rarely taking initiative. Other pawn-characters at least try to act on their own accord . But hey, she refused to kneel to Tyrion, what a thrilling tale - I am shivering with excitement.

Allying with Littlefinger does not originate from Sansa either - he took her to the Vale against her will, and he is keeping her there despite promising to take her home. She is again reacting against what other characters do, except this time they're Lysa, Littlefinger and the lords of the Vale.

Sansa has been acting on her "own accord" since A Clash of Kings, where she put her life at risk to meet Dontos in the Godswood and began plotting her escape. She did the same with the Tyrells. In both instances, she did everything in her power to change her situation.

Just to clarify: Sansa in the show is now even more of a pawn than ever before, because she truly doesn't realise how much Littlefinger is misleading her. She just willingly allied with the guy who had her father killed and she has absolutely no idea about it.

[Annara Snow]

Both the Tyrell proposal and Dontos' (LF's) plans do not originate from Sansa. She doesn't act, she re-act against what other characters do, and in fact she does so in a completely predictable (in-universe) way, dancing to the tune of others and being a complete pawn without realizing it - rarely taking initiative.

I agree, a hostage surrounded by enemies who are watching her every move should be taking "initiative" and going around and asking: "Ser, would you like to betray the king and queen and help me escape to my family? Yes, the Starks, the "traitors"..." Yeeeees, that makes so much sense. :rolleyes:

And I agree, it would be totally boring to watch a hostage attempt to escape for 2.5 seasons; it would be totally boring and unimpressive to see this girl run into the godswood in the middle of the night to meet an anonymous person who's promised to help her escape, carrying a knife to threaten or use it if it turns out to be a trap (meh, everyone in that position would do it, riiight?) and continue to meet this person and plan her escape for a long time while maintaining the same facade in front of her captors.

Just like it would be so meh and boring to see a young girl comfort a big scary warrior guy when he tells her about his childhood trauma, by touching him and telling him his brother who burned him was "no true knight". It's so much more better to see the same girl be told that story by some other guy who says "don't tell anyone or he will kill you" and react to it just by saying fearfully: "I won't tell anyone!" I mean, it's not like the former is much more interesting and revealing and shows strength of character and qualities in that girl that the latter is not showing at all!

Other pawn-characters at least try to act on their own accord .

Please enlighten me, who are those?

But hey, she refused to kneel to Tyrion, what a thrilling tale - I am shivering with excitement.

Yes, watching a young girl go through a forced wedding and show as much defiance as she can to her captors is so boooo-ring. It's much more interesting to watch the same story as a story about how awesome the husband she's forced to marry is for not raping her, and how bad it is for the poor guy when his mistress gets angry at him, and about how great it would be if the girl and the guy she was forced to marry could learn to get along and joke around together, woo-hoo!

I can only imagine what it would be like if GRRM or the show ever had a major common folk character and showed things more from their POV. This may be why they don't do it. They're just perpetual victims in the war with no chance to affect the "game of thrones". I'd love to read a commoner's POV, but the majority of the fandom would be shouting: "BO-RING!"

[Le Cygne]

Just to clarify: Sansa in the show is now even more of a pawn than ever before, because she truly doesn't realise how much Littlefinger is misleading her. She just willingly allied with the guy who had her father killed and she has absolutely no idea about it.

Hence the she went to the dark side perception among the audience that's so prevalent.

They (Benioff and Weiss) are also romanticizing Littlefinger, she knows she is a "second chance at the woman you loved" and they even said "he has protected her in his own way, she's never come to serious harm with him" - really, because she almost killed herself, was almost raped, was forcibly married, almost killed, and so on... because of his actions.

[Annara Snow]

Hence the she went to the dark side perception among the audience that's so prevalent.

They are also romanticizing Littlefinger, she knows she is a "second chance at the woman you loved" and they even said "he has protected her in his own way, she's never come to serious harm with him" - really, because she almost killed herself, was almost raped, was forcibly married, almost killed, and so on... because of his actions.

I don't know which corners of the fandom you're mostly lurking in, but that's definitely nowhere near being the majority of people. I'm pretty sure it's a tiny minority.

There will always be people who romanticize villains, book readers do the same. I've seen posts by those who adore LF and defend him and his actions in a similar way. There's also been a bunch of fanfiction for ages not just about Sansa/LF but also Theon/Ramsay, for instance, and a bunch of even weirder non-canon ones (I don't follow fanfiction, but someone on Tumblr was talking about horrible fanfics that, for instance, pair Sansa up with people like Tywin, Euron, Ramsay or Gregor). With the show watchers, this is likely to increase in the case that the actor is at least remotely attractive - you get a bunch of those "I ship it because this guy is hot!" (which is also a reason that there are so many Ramsay fangirls now) and it has absolutely nothing to do with the storyline. LF is very obviously a creep and a villain in the show, and the majoity of people who "ship" him with Sansa are doing it because they find Aidan Gillen hot and don't care about much else.

[Le Cygne]

To clarify,

BENIOFF AND WEISS are also romanticizing Littlefinger, she knows she is a "second chance at the woman you loved" and they even said "he has protected her in his own way, she's never come to serious harm with him" - really, because she almost killed herself, was almost raped, was forcibly married, almost killed, and so on... because of his actions.

Also, GRRM never romanticized Littlefinger, not at all. They are very different characters in the show and the books. To expand on this, book Littlefinger is all about obsession, and the reader knows why he is obsessed, but never sympathizes with his obsession. What we are seeing on the show is very oddly presented.

[mormont]

[mod] Keep it civil, folks. [/mod]