Relic Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 yeah, yeah we know, people on here hate the show. Moving on. Go ahead then. Move on. This thread is here to discuss the show, the good with the bad. It's not to give it a blow job. If you can't handle that i suggest hitting up a different forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Go ahead then. Move on. This thread is here to discuss the show, the good with the bad. It's not to give it a blow job. If you can't handle that i suggest hitting up a different forum. :bowdown: :cheers: Especially now that nitpick thread was closed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beric175 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Yeah well, since you so kindly told me to get out I will, if you'll allow me, play the malcontent for a second and comment on the state of affairs as I currently perceive it, shall I? I think I might go to another forum that allows for more differences of opinion where people don't think they're smarter than everyone because they've managed to read these books twice (congratulations by the way, you managed to read a book, that does not give you the right to question other people's fandom if they have not read the books as often as you or at all, noone has to prove anything to you to get an ASOIAF fandom ID card) and where they don't look down in cynical fashion on people who like the show and where civil conversation and not the constant passive-aggressive and confontational tone is the rule. I remember getting into a big argument over s4e8 with Ran and it basically came down to him saying that the bad editing of the last scene of the episode made it one of the worst episodes of the show given the expectations he had, disregarding entirely what had preceded that scene, and just like with the RW there is the idea that the minority will supposedly prevail in terms of overall consensus because everyone else is just wrong for having a different opinion of these things. This plays into another aspect: people on here harp on the 'faults' of the adaptation and at best mention the good parts in passing and that results in a lot of negativity coming off this site. And it's not just about the show. If you say your honest opinion about Martin's prowess as a writer (whose prose for instance I don't enjoy) or ASOIAF, including criticisms of the books (like the whole bunch of underdeveloped and mostly uninteresting POVs from AFFC onward, dragging and slow plot, overlong books, soap-opera-style plot twists that make the books gimmicky) you get people shouting you down and telling you how wrong you are for feeling this way in a way that makes them feel smart and superior in their eyes and arrogant and self-congratulatory in mine. I am glad I was not in any LOTR fan community when the films came out because that would have frankly ruined them for me without any real reason because on their own they are still cinematic masterpieces that have stood the test of time and so I'll probably do it like Sean T. Collins from Rolling Stone: I'll shut off all the ASOIAF fanboy talk surrounding the show next year, especially from people who say "changes = bad", while the show airs so that I can appreciate it on its own terms without having someone else's whining in my ears all the time. I say this with the best intentions in mind, though, because noone wants to have a conversation in an atmosphere or context that encourages people to exchange blows over details of intrpretation and god forbid you interpret these books without including every single syllable of every single word that Martin has uttered. And god help those showrunners if they don't interpret the characters like you do (ex. Stannis). I usually make it my point to take the author's intention out of the equation completely because everyone's relation to the books is individual and different and there are so many different POVs anyway that any attempt of the author to have a broader theme and comment on something himself has been lost since the beginning because when all of your characters have different opinions on sometimes the same events guess what, you as an author end up having none or it is so densely buried that esentially anyone can take anything from it and so I would not presume to tell others what to think while watching the show or reading the books but I guess some people just can't help themselves. You end up with thousands of characters, a convoluted plot and a slow pace instead. It might feel realistic but it does not have anything particularly deep to say. There is indeed something to be said about that hipster attitude that tends to dislike anything that makes their fandom accessible to more and more people byond the small boundaries that have been established for a while now. Yeah, you'll have to accept people who are less versed in the books than you into your fandom and those that won't read the books might indeed lose out on a lot of worldbuilding details: deal with it and be welcoming of them because why on earth wouldn't you? I thought the whole point was to get different perspectives but I don't think that I'm telling you anything new here when I say that generally it appears to people on the Internet that this site is particularly harsh in the way that it constantly second-guesses the showrunners' intent in a way that it does not with the author of the books, no matter how much of a letdown he produces (AFFC, ADWD). I could question why he had Jaime waste all of his POV chapters in Riverrun without doing anything interesting or particularly revealing about his character but these are things that usualy go unmentioned becaue that calls into question the big plan that the author supposedly has mapped out after deciding he wasn't gonna make it into a trilogy anymore and hence it creates doubt in the readers' mind as to the quality of the last books. I won't second-guess his intent or attmept to read his mind though, which is the opposite approach of what other people here are doing because I don't know either Martin or D&D and I wished most people would admit that they don't either and that they also have nio clue where the stoy is going, it's all conjecture. I don't need to refer to the books if something on the show does not work. If it turns out that elements like LS and Aegon are just windowdressing without going anywhere will you change your mind about these books in retrospective? This is a nice bubble but it would do some people on here a lot of good to get out of that bubble sometimes and take these books and themselves less seriously. You might care a lot but that love for this fantasy world is wasted if you make hate out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 I'm not arguing that those seasons don't feature mis characterization, just that season 4 is (way) worse. Season 2 Sansa and to a lesser extent Cersei were pretty amazing.Cat isn't really a good argument since she was out of the show this season, so obviously they couldn't screw her up.I've been unhappy with some of the decisions made in season 2 and 3 , but season 4 is what made me lose faith. Season 4 was worse for Jaime, no doubt - they really fucked up, and that's after his really good portrayal in season 4. It was also, IMO, worse for Brienne. Daario was too dull and subdued. And that's pretty much it. A few characters got better treatment this season (Jon in particular, also Sansa, Sandor), one major new character got excellent portrayal (Oberyn) and everyone else was pretty much the same as before. Sansa was great in season 2, I agree... when she actually got screentime. Some 70% of her ACOK storyline got cut in season 2, and that was the beginning of the show problems with her storyline, which got particularly bad in season 3. Cersei was amazing in Blackwater and occasionally in a few other scenes, but she spent a lot of season 2 being unable to have any power next to Joffrey, whining about not being able to control Joffrey, and talking about Joffrey being gods' punishment for hers and Jaime's incest. Almost all of the changes you listed for seasons 2 and 3 were totally understandable, minor or "corrected" later. What a convenient answer. Tell how exactly each of them was understandable (in the sense "this change made sense and was a good idea" rather than "I can see why they did that, but they were completely wrong and screwed up"), minor or corrected later. There are some of those that were good or acceptable, but most of them were not. At least not any more than those in season 4. Someone could just as well say that all those changes you listed in season 4 are "totally understandable, minor, or were/will be corrected later". They almost didn't have any impact to the future seasons. So Robb/Talisa and the portrayal of Robb's relationship with Cat did not affect how those characters were portrayed in season 3? Cutting Dontos's offer to take Sansa home, and cutting most of Sansa's storyline, didn't affect Sansa's plots in future seasons? Cutting Dontos also didn't affect how LF was portrayed in season 3, when he was too obvious and enough of an idiot to approach Sansa directly? Tyrion's whitewashing didn't continue? Shae's characterization didn't affect her characterization in season 4 and didn't make her overall portrayal incredibly inconsistent? Cersei didn't continue to be both depowered and whitewashed? The Loras/Cersei marriage is not still on the cards in season 4? Jorah didn't continue being portrayed as much nicer than he is in the books? Jaime and Brienne getting to King's Landing weeks before the Purple Wedding didn't affect how their characters were portrayed and what they did in season 4? Yara going on a rescue mission to save Theon didn't affect season 4, when she actually gets to Dreadfort? The only major ones were Robb's, Daenerys', and to a lesser extent, Arya's storylines in S2.IMO, Season 2 was the most different in relation to the book, but it was much less bad than season 4. The season worked as a whole, despite all that. Season 2 was awful, with some exceptions (Blackwater was great). There is no single storyline they fully did justice, and they completely botched a few (Dany, Jon, Robb). And not just from the book reader perspective - the majority of the Unsullied hated Dany's storyline and almost lost patience with her character, many thought Robb and Talisa were boring, and Jon was thought to be a clueless moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Sophie Turner hints Sansa is going to use her sexuality to manipulate Littlefinger: "She’s gonna try to play out her sexuality as much as she can to manipulate him. So that’s what she’s gonna do." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZeHrrtAmPs They hinted the same on the Inside the Episode, here's Weiss: Then in episode 7 when he kisses her, he's teaching her a lesson about his own weakness, and about her own strength relative to him, about how she can exercise control over him... And when she tells him that she knows what he wants, that's a pretty bald statement of saying I know where your raw nerve is, I've figured out what I am to you, the confusing mix of daughter and second chance at the woman you loved, and I am prepared to use that against you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3vgeMijCc He's a brothel owner who trained women to use their sexuality to manipulate men - remember this? And they cut Sansa's story where she explores her own sexuality (yet now they hint they are going to make her story about Littlefinger's sexuality). So it's not like she's even in touch with her sexuality that she's going to use to manipulate the master manipulator who has taught women to manipulate men using their sexuality. She certainly wasn't in touch with Loras' sexuality. And then they give her this dress that earned her an entry in the Evil Costume Switch page on the tropes site: Sansa in Game of Thrones plays this trope straight. For three seasons she tries to be what everyone expects of her, and the result is the complete ruin of her life. Throughout, she dresses in proper ladies' dresses and behaves like a little girl. By the fourth season, she's had enough and decides to throw her lot in with the man who has proven to be the only one with true power; Littlefinger. First she lies with stunning conviction to protect him. The next time we see her, she's wearing a black, figure-hugging dress that exposes a generous amount of chest. Even Littlefinger is stunned. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilCostumeSwitch And of course, it's not just the dress, or the cleavage, but the way she played the scene, this is all part of the trope. It's about what the trope represents, it's classic, she looks like the Evil Queen in Snow White and the Huntsman, hence they are calling her that, and Maleficent and Darth Sansa and the like (Turner even indicates this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Brienne is still wearing the armour he gave her, wearing his sword and going on the mission he assigned her. That's enough for me to indicate her dedication to Jaime. Should she have talked about how much she fancied him to Pod? I'll just ignore the Jaime stuff, but since you ask, how they show someone "fancies" someone on film, just have them think about and talk about the person often. And if they don't have someone to talk to, have someone mention them and do a closeup, or use props. Also their decision never to show flashbacks or dreams is a problem, you don't want to overuse those, but they could use the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 He's a brothel owner who trained women to use their sexuality to manipulate men - remember this? And they cut Sansa's story where she explores her own sexuality (yet now they hint they are going to make her story about Littlefinger's sexuality). So it's not like she's even in touch with her sexuality that she's going to use to manipulate the master manipulator who has taught women to maniulate men using sexuality. She certainly wasn't in touch with Loras' sexuality. She is not going to use her sexuality to manipulate him. That's just the (incorrect) term that people use ("sexuality" instead of "sexual attractiveness/sex appeal"), although it's clear what they really mean. She is going to use his sexuality to manipulate him. In other words, his attraction to her. So, one could say she will be using her sexual attractiveness/appeal to manipulate him, aka the attraction he feels for her - not her sexuality, since this really has nothing to do with her sexuality. Just as (spoilers for the Mercy chapter) Arya luring Raff the Sweetling by pretending to be a pre-teen prostitute had absolutely nothing to with Arya's sexuality, and everything to do with Raff's sexuality and Arya's intelligence/resorcefulness/gift for role playing/determination to kill him. LF is not training prostitutes to manipulate men. He's training them to give the men what they want. For money. Because it's their job. It has nothing to do with manipulation. It has nothing to do with those women having any power - they don't. And it has really nothing to do with their own sexuality - they're just faking it. Which is the only similarity those two situations have. But the differences are vast. Sansa doesn't have to learn anything about sex to be able to manipulate LF, she doesn't have to learn anything about making herself sexually desirable to men to manipulate LF, and she sure as hell doesn't need to learn anything about having sex. Unlike those prostitutes, she doesn't have to have sex with him or anyone in order to manipulate him - in fact, it would work much better if she doesn't give in and give him what he wants. She doesn't even need to lure him - he's already attracted to her and obsessed with her, and he will be creeping on her one way or another, just as he already has. She just has to play on that, tease him and keep him at arm's length while still making him think he's got a chance and that she might eventually become his lover/wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 And of course, it's not just the dress, or the cleavage, but the way she played the scene, this is all part of the trope. It's about what the trope represents, it's classic, she looks like the Evil Queen in Snow White and the Huntsman, hence they are calling her that, and Maleficent and Darth Sansa and the like (Turner even indicates this). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Please don't cause another thread to be closed because of this ridiculous Sansa's dress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Please don't cause another thread to be closed because of this ridiculous Sansa's dress. Tell that to the person who caused that thread to be closed by starting to post personal attacks on me. I tend to respond in kind when people do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beric175 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Two wrongs don't make a right and two personal attacks don't resolve a disagreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Two wrongs don't make a right and two personal attacks don't resolve a disagreement. And? Don't start posting personal attacks and the thread and won't be closed. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Beric, Your one-liner post was basically an attempt to shut down discussion you didn't like by making people feel ashamed or whatever about not being happy with aspects of the show. You don't have a place to then tell people you want to be in a place where differences of opinion can be discussed, when you just attempted to shut down differences. People are sharing their views. That's what the place is for. If you can't handle it, yes, go elsewhere to that place where "differences of opinion" also happen to be within your comfort zone. Me, I say we have room for hipsters ... and homers ... alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BastardlyRock Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 She is not going to use her sexuality to manipulate him. That's just the (incorrect) term that people use ("sexuality" instead of "sexual attractiveness/sex appeal"), although it's clear what they really mean. She is going to use his sexuality to manipulate him. In other words, his attraction to her. So, one could say she will be using her sexual attractiveness/appeal to manipulate him, aka the attraction he feels for her - not her sexuality, since this really has nothing to do with her sexuality. Just as (spoilers for the Mercy chapter) Arya luring Raff the Sweetling by pretending to be a pre-teen prostitute had absolutely nothing to with Arya's sexuality, and everything to do with Raff's sexuality and Arya's intelligence/resorcefulness/gift for role playing/determination to kill him. Spot on. That's the best I've seen it worded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 It is madness to mess with LF like that. Sansa will rue it if she goes that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 He's the brothel owner who trained women to manipulate men with their sexuality, and he's the master manipulator. Yet she's going to pull one over on him. By very obviously sexually manipulating him! Even though they cut her exploring her own sexuality - she expressed an interest in Loras, but failed to pick up his sexuality, despite very heavy hints - but her sexuality was explored in the books, on her own terms. Her story is all about Littlefinger. Sansa is in prop territory again. It's not going over well, either. As in, it's so over the top, many are laughing (Darth Sansa, Maleficent, etc.) instead of taking it seriously. I laughed. Here are Elio and Linda's reviews, where they talk about it: Mountain and the Viper review, around 43:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_zgaSY3BV8 Season 4 review, around 54:00: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4cL3hUYq8w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 "It's not going over well, either". With whom? From what I've read of reviews and fan reactions, there isn't too much of a consensus over Sansa (just like in the books, mind you). There isn't a uniformly positive response to her storyline, yes, but neither is there a uniformly negative one as I think you're suggesting. BTW Paper Waver, do you think that LF's drunkenness in AFFC was a ploy of some kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BastardlyRock Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 It's the little things that started getting the axe under the pretense of "we can't include everything" that in the long run have left the "big" storylines as holy as swiss cheese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 He's the brothel owner who trained women to manipulate men with their sexuality, and he's the master manipulator. Yet she's going to pull one over on him. Again, he didn't train women to manipulate men. He trained them to give men exactly what they want, for money. That's a pure transaction, services for payment, no manipulation involved. LF has also never sexually manipulated anyone other than Lysa, who was already crazy about him since they were children. He's used sex to get what he wants, but that doesn't mean he would know how to make anyone fall for him. And regardless, the fact that he's not been successful in making Sansa fall for him makes this irrelevant for their relationship. You can't sexually manipulate someone who's not sexually interested in you. But yes, he is a master manipulator. Who's manipulated lots of people through his lies and scheming; that's what he is really good at. If you think he's so brilliant and that Sansa can never be nearly as good and can't pull one over him - well, then there's no hope for her, except to hope she gets saved by someone else, right? Not really a great arc to look forward. His one certain weakness is the obsession he's had with Catelyn and now Sansa. Sansa, on the other hand, feels no such thing for him. Playing with that and using his weakness for her seems like the most obvious way to manipulate him. If you believed that Sansa is a better schemer and manipulator or that he is not that good, so that she could manipulate him even without using his weakness for her, I could understand your position better. But you're saying that he's such a brilliant manipulator, and Sansa can't pull one over him... so what do you think she should do? She shouldn't be trying to use the most obvious weakness he has? Even though they cut (to date, prior to launching this plotline) her exploring her own sexuality - she expressed an interest in Loras, but failed to pick up his sexuality, despite very heavy hints from multiple characters, incuding Loras himself, but there was a very extensive story about her doing this very thing in the books, on her own terms. When? She never picked up on Loras' sexuality in the books any more than she did in the show. She just picked up on the fact he wasn't interested in her when she had the first actual conversation with him and realized he didn't remember giving her the rose at the Hand's tourney. The same thing she did in the show, only that time it was expressed by a disappointed look on her face, rather than the words "He doesn't remember me. It meant nothing, and she had believed it had meant so much, that it meant everything" because we don't have her narrating her internal thoughts. And Sansa is in prop territory again. You seem to be the only person in the world to think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 "It's not going over well, either". With whom? Widely discussed elsewhere. Do it yourself, look around, and you'll see on various forums and social media sites, it's quite the topic. Depending on the nature of the site, this ranges from some hoping to see her boobs this season to the concerns I addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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