Season 4 Impressions

[Annara Snow]

...because he had just rotted in a dungeon cell for god knows how long brooding on his impending execution? I mean, your father setting up a fake trial to get rid of you for good and even having your former lover testify against you in front of everyone is a bit different from said father simply saying hateful things to you all throughout your life, wouldn't you say?

Again, I'm not exepecting anyone to change their minds on this, it's pretty obvious that people liked the Tysha bit from the books and weren't happy that it got changed, so it's not like I am going to convince anyone on anything. I simply wanted to point out that Tyrion's 'plan' was equally contrived and equally idiotic in both the show and the book.

And he had "god knows how long" to get used to the idea and not be shocked by it. If they had wanted him to look furious, desperate, vengeful, whatever, when he was in the cell, and when he went up, they did a really bad job with it, especially since Dinklage wasn't playing it like that at all.

Also, someone who only saw the show would have good reasons to wonder "Why didn't he go to confront Cersei? She definitely wanted him dead and tried to get him executed."

[sj4iy]

Also, someone who only saw the show would have good reasons to wonder "Why didn't he go to confront Cersei? She definitely wanted him dead and tried to get him executed."

In fact, my sister, her husband, my mother-in-law and her husband all watch the show but haven't read the books. I asked them about this very subject without giving them any hint whatsoever as to the Tysha storyline because I was curious. None of them had any problem at all grasping the fact that Tyrion wanted revenge against his father- they weren't at all confused about his reasoning.

Of course, my knowing four people means nothing as far as the general population, so I won't presume to speculate about the wider believability of the scene. But in my experience and theirs, it made sense.

As I said before, though, I have no wish to continue to debate the subject. It is what it is. Some people were fine with it, others weren't. Can't be changed now.

[Dragon in the North]

In the show, there's no previously established canon of Tyrion knowing how to navigate the tunnels of the Red Keep, nor is there sufficient motivation without the truth about Tysha or Jaime's involvement.

When Tyrion and Varys are preparing for the Battle of the Blackwater, Tyrion learns of secret tunnels underneath the Red Keep, IIRC.

[Woman of War]

When Tyrion and Varys are preparing for the Battle of the Blackwater, Tyrion learns of secret tunnels underneath the Red Keep, IIRC.

Varys even gives him a map of the tunnels which Tyrion may have memorized as preparation for defending the city.

I guess that Marauders' Map may show up later in the story again .......

[CaptainTheo]

Also, someone who only saw the show would have good reasons to wonder "Why didn't he go to confront Cersei? She definitely wanted him dead and tried to get him executed."

Exactly. Although I've read the books it would still have made a lot more sense to me if he had confronted Cersei, as she and not Tywin is the one who accused Tyrion and masterminded the sham trial. Tywin did mainly play along with Cersei's wishes, although he did offer Tyrion an 'out', if an univiting one.

[Dragon in the North]

Exactly. Although I've read the books it would still have made a lot more sense to me if he had confronted Cersei, as she and not Tywin is the one who accused Tyrion and masterminded the sham trial. Tywin did mainly play along with Cersei's wishes, although he did offer Tyrion an 'out', if an univiting one.

You have to keep in mind that Tyrion didn't go to Tywin's chambers to kill him. He was about to leave the capital and probably never see his family again, so it was his last chance to confront Tywin about the horrible treatment he's given Tyrion and for Tywin to finally answer for the atrocities he's committed.

[Tolsimir]

You have to keep in mind that Tyrion didn't go to Tywin's chambers to kill him. He was about to leave the capital and probably never see his family again, so it was his last chance to confront Tywin about the horrible treatment he's given Tyrion and for Tywin to finally answer for the atrocities he's committed.

This also makes no sense. Just imagine Tyrions conversation with Tywin if there was no Shae there (and Tyrion had no idea she would be).

''Hey dad, I know you wanted me dead my entire life, I just thought I would ask you why before I escape.''

''Reasons.''

Now Tyrion would have two choices, either he would try to change Tywins mind (lol) or he would....leave? Only now Tywin would be aware that Tyrion is loose and he would end up back in his cell.

Some people might say that in the books Tyrion was also doomed to fail if he didn't kill Tywin. And it's true. Except that it still makes sense in the books because Tyrion genuinely doesn't care if he ends up back in his cell. Which is clearly not the case in the show (Jaime, I thank you for my life!). So if he cares about his life, why take the risk and waste it for nothing?

[Mr Fixit]

...because he had just rotted in a dungeon cell for god knows how long brooding on his impending execution? I mean, your father setting up a fake trial to get rid of you for good and even having your former lover testify against you in front of everyone is a bit different from said father simply saying hateful things to you all throughout your life, wouldn't you say?

Again, I'm not exepecting anyone to change their minds on this, it's pretty obvious that people liked the Tysha bit from the books and weren't happy that it got changed, so it's not like I am going to convince anyone on anything. I simply wanted to point out that Tyrion's 'plan' was equally contrived and equally idiotic in both the show and the book.

I can't believe this is even up for debate. My father, after hating me my entire life, arranged a "trial" that found me guilty of a crime I didn't commit and now plans to publicly execute me. Gee, why on Earth would I want to confront/kill him? Yeah, I got nothing. If only my brother had revealed a longtime secret that involved my ex-wife... then I'd be surely all pumped up for some righteous vengeance. Alas, since that didn't happen, I must admit my murderous motivations were somewhat weak. I'll be sure to note that the next time I read about a family murder in the newspapers. I'll visit the killer in prison and tell him that his crime was illogical and hard to believe. I mean, he probably doesn't even have an ex-wife! These guys... they can't even stick to the script when going on a rampage.

[sj4iy]

I can't believe this is even up for debate. My father, after hating me my entire life, arranged a "trial" that found me guilty of a crime I didn't commit and now plans to publicly execute me. Gee, why on Earth would I want to confront/kill him? Yeah, I got nothing. If only my brother had revealed a longtime secret that involved my ex-wife... then I'd be surely all pumped up for some righteous vengeance. Alas, since that didn't happen, I must admit my murderous motivations were somewhat weak. I'll be sure to note that the next time I read about a family murder in the newspapers. I'll visit the killer in prison and tell him that his crime was illogical and hard to believe. I mean, he probably doesn't even have an ex-wife! These guys... they can't even stick to the script when going on a rampage.

:lmao:

[Annara Snow]

I can't believe this is even up for debate. My father, after hating me my entire life, arranged a "trial" that found me guilty of a crime I didn't commit and now plans to publicly execute me. Gee, why on Earth would I want to confront/kill him? Yeah, I got nothing. If only my brother had revealed a longtime secret that involved my ex-wife... then I'd be surely all pumped up for some righteous vengeance. Alas, since that didn't happen, I must admit my murderous motivations were somewhat weak. I'll be sure to note that the next time I read about a family murder in the newspapers. I'll visit the killer in prison and tell him that his crime was illogical and hard to believe. I mean, he probably doesn't even have an ex-wife! These guys... they can't even stick to the script when going on a rampage.

While you're so full of righteous vengeful anger that you're willing to kill your father at the expense of losing your life instead of getting away, make sure to look calm and mildly curious a la Peter Dinklage while climbing to his father's room. That would make it extra convincing that you're going on a rampage.

Also, it would be nice if you find your ex-lover/prostitute in your father's bed, kill her, while still not looking particularly angry, and then confront your father, making absolutely clear to him that it's not your lifelong abuse that you're killing him for, but for calling your ex-lover a whore, which you've also called her, but that's different, and you are just defending her honor, after having killed her minutes before.

[Beric175]

Actually I think the frustration was set up at different points during the season but it was subtle enough that viewers might need to ewatch cetain scenes involving Tyrion and Jaime: in episode 4 he talks about the 'Golden son' who can do no wrong in his father's eyes, which is the start of Tyrion beginning to complain about his treatment at the hands of his family and he makes Jaime responsible partly because of reasons that are beyond the latter's control. Then in episode 6 he explodes at the end of the trial and it is important to note that in the show it's Tywin who calls in Shae, not Cersei so Tyrion has much more reason to hate his father on the show because Tywin is not just content with finding Tyrion guilty, he cruelly wants to humiliate him and at this point it should be clear that he knows what Shae is going to say and her testimony is not actually needed anymore because they have created a big enough impression of his guilt in the minds of everyone already. Then in episode 7 he muses about the idea that if jaime were to fight the family line would be ended, all to hurt his father where it hurts him the most and most importantly very selfishly without regards for his brother's wants and value as a person. Finally, in episode 8 Tyrion mentions all different kinds of homicide, including patricide. So the fact that Tyrion wants to hurt his father and even contemplates his murder before the moment when the Tysha reveal was supposed to come in makes it clear that the show's version of the events hinge on Tyrion's already existing feelings concerning his father and hence there is much more of a through line as to how this was eventually going to turn out and I think you could say that he wants to murder him in cold blood or not on the show but that ambiguity is actually more interesting because it creates a debate as to the show version of these events. the fact that Shae is in Tywin's bed is just seemingly the final straw but there is another difference that is noteworthy: in the book Tyrion feels a sense of satisfaction when he kills his father, not so in the show because he silently just drops the crossbow and that's it. Ultimately the point that is being made is that justice and revenge do not taste as good as you think they might, which then harks back to Oberyn who thought that killing the Mountain would gain him something but fact is the only thing that would have happened would have been that the Mountain was dead and his sister would not actually come back to life.

The hypocrisy of killing Shae and then blaming Tywin for it is actually quite obvious but it's also consistent with the way he's been feeling about his father and it's so obvious that it's most likely intentional and people not calling him out on it should maybe rewatch the scenes more closely. Him looking calm says nothing about his thoughts or feelingsbecause god knows we have so many murderers in popular culture who kill without any emotion whatsoever.

[Tolsimir]

Actually I think the frustration was set up at different points during the season but it was subtle enough that viewers might need to ewatch cetain scenes involving Tyrion and Jaime: in episode 4 he talks about the 'Golden son' who can do no wrong in his father's eyes, which is the start of Tyrion beginning to complain about his treatment at the hands of his family and he makes Jaime responsible partly because of reasons that are beyond the latter's control. Then in episode 6 he explodes at the end of the trial and it is important to note that in the show it's Tywin who calls in Shae, not Cersei so Tyrion has much more reason to hate his father on the show because Tywin is not just content with finding Tyrion guilty, he cruelly wants to humiliate him and at this point it should be clear that he knows what Shae is going to say and her testimony is not actually needed anymore because they have created a big enough impression of his guilt in the minds of everyone already. Then in episode 7 he muses about the idea that if jaime were to fight the family line would be ended, all to hurt his father where it hurts him the most and most importantly very selfishly without regards for his brother's wants and value as a person. Finally, in episode 8 Tyrion mentions all different kinds of homicide, including patricide. So the fact that Tyrion wants to hurt his father and even contemplates his murder before the moment when the Tysha reveal was supposed to come in makes it clear that the show's version of the events hinge on Tyrion's already existing feelings concerning his father and hence there is much more of a through line as to how this was eventually going to turn out and I think you could say that he wants to murder him in cold blood or not on the show but that ambiguity is actually more interesting because it creates a debate as to the show version of these events. the fact that Shae is in Tywin's bed is just seemingly the final straw but there is another difference that is noteworthy: in the book Tyrion feels a sense of satisfaction when he kills his father, not so in the show because he silently just drops the crossbow and that's it. Ultimately the point that is being made is that justice and revenge do not taste as good as you think they might, which then harks back to Oberyn who thought that killing the Mountain would gain him something but fact is the only thing that would have happened would have been that the Mountain was dead and his sister would not actually come back to life.

The hypocrisy of killing Shae and then blaming Tywin for it is actually quite obvious but it's also consistent with the way he's been feeling about his father and it's so obvious that it's most likely intentional and people not calling him out on it should maybe rewatch the scenes more closely. Him looking calm says nothing about his thoughts or feelingsbecause god knows we have so many murderers in popular culture who kill without any emotion whatsoever.

Tywin calling in Shae doesn't matter. He is the main judge, he calls in everyone. Why should Tyrion assume that Tywin made Shae testify? It could be Cersei or even Shae herself. And yes, he explodes at the end of the trial and then during the beetle scene he is whining about his own helplessness and we see how gentle he is when he lets the beetle go, which is a complete turn from the state he was in at the trial. How you got that he contemplates Tywin's murder in that scene is beyond me. Oh wait, I know, you are just twisting how things happened to suit your argument, and then you also have the guts to call other people out and tell them to rewatch the scene.

[Beric175]

@Tolsimir: He lets the beetle go because it's a metaphor for himself so he might be hoping for mercy from the gods as well...and I don't see why he has to be constantly fuming and roaring. Actually he mentions matricide, nepiticide, and of course...patricide and other forms of homicide. It's like LF saying 'people die at their dinnertables, they die in their beds, they die squating over their chamberpots'. Tyrion would probably be predisposed to thinking that his father called in Shae just to humiliate him because he has the opportunity to do so. Does not mean he's right but it's very likely that that's what he's thinking. What I was saying is that the thought of his father's murder was already something that had entered his mind by that point, which could make the scene in episode 10 of season 4 much more premeditated than even he might realize at first. Instead of randomly going back he uses the opprtunity and goes back to confront his father, finds shae and then looks at the crossbow. The word 'whore' is just an excuse he needs to shoot Tywin because he already is thinking of killing him in that moment and all the past resentment makes it just that much easier to kill him.

Honestly, I don't care if people agree with me and hence I have no incentive or interest to twist anything just to suit some argument about a bunch of fantasy books and a tv show. Please recall that I did not ascribe devious intentions to other people and generally do not do so if I don't know them and you should probably do the same. All I said was that different interpretations of these events exist with the show and I used some examples to back up my point. I could care less whether or not you share my viewpoint. What I do care about is civil discourse instead of the passive-aggressive exchanges that happen here now and again.

[GoldHandTheGood]

While I don't think the beetle scene was the creme de la creme of tv writing, I don't understand the sheer amount of hatred it seems to get. I also think a few people missed its point when I hear them say stuff like "it just ran on and then was left without a point". The lack of a point, in many ways, was the point, as Tyrion finds himself unable to wholly comprehend Orson's reasons for the beetle massacres, as much as he cannot wrap his head around the reasoning behind determining a man's fate by trial by combat. He very much at that moment feels as insignificant and helpless as a beetle, and hits on a very nihilistic truth about the random, pointless, and futile nature of life and death, ergo the lack of a satisfactory point to the rambling, as Tyrion is perplexed by the tragic absurdity of Orson's actions, as much as he is by the tragic absurdity of the situation he finds himself in. What I love about that scene is its multiple meanings, metaphors etc, and its awkward humor, considering the scene it's approaching.

I get why people don't like it though, as those minutes could have been used for Tysha, but it gets a ridiculous amount of hate.

[PatrickStormborn]

While I don't think the beetle scene was the creme de la creme of tv writing, I don't understand the sheer amount of hatred it seems to get. I also think a few people missed its point when I hear them say stuff like "it just ran on and then was left without a point". The lack of a point, in many ways, was the point, as Tyrion finds himself unable to wholly comprehend Orson's reasons for the beetle massacres, as much as he cannot wrap his head around the reasoning behind determining a man's fate by trial by combat. He very much at that moment feels as insignificant and helpless as a beetle, and hits on a very nihilistic truth about the random, pointless, and futile nature of life and death, ergo the lack of a satisfactory point to the rambling, as Tyrion is perplexed by the tragic absurdity of Orson's actions, as much as he is by the tragic absurdity of the situation he finds himself in. What I love about that scene is its multiple meanings, metaphors etc, and its awkward humor, considering the scene it's approaching.

I get why people don't like it though, as those minutes could have been used for Tysha, but it gets a ridiculous amount of hate.

Yes, the lack of point IS the point, which is why for so many of us it seems pointless when the time could have been spent elsewhere - namely, on the injustice that happened to Elia and her children, which is what the climax of the episode is supposed to be about.

[Janicia]

I am fine with how the Tysha story works in the books. But I don't understand why people are so strongly attached to it as the trigger for Tyrion confronting Tywin.

So Tyrion learns that he met his ex under different circumstances than he thought, and that lights the spark that causes Tyrion to risk his escape, murder another ex, and kill his father? Bearing in mind that Tyrion knew Tysha for a total of 2 weeks more than 10 years ago, that Tywin forced Tyrion to participate in her gang rape, and that Tyrion has had a lot of sex since then.

Tyrion in the book isn't triggered by learning that Tysha died, or learning about her gang rape, finding out her whereabouts. He just learns that Jaime didn't set up their meeting. Given how rich Tyrion was, Tysha still had ample reason to pretend to love him, and again, their entire relationship lasted two weeks and Tysha is long gone.

It isn't just that Tysha isn't even a character on the show. It is also that this small reveal about the Tysha story doesn't make a ton of sense as the motivation for murder.

The list of Tywin's crimes against Tyrion:

-Mean, absent parenting

-Refusing to give Tyrion his birthright

-Forcibly divorcing Tyrion from his wife

-Having the wife gang raped in front of Tyrion and sent away

-Putting Tyrion in the vanguard to die in the battle against Stark forces

-Relegating Tyrion to a closet under Pycelle's ministrations after Tyrion successfully defended Kings Landing

-Telling Tyrion that Tywin's greatest sacrifice in life was not murdering him

-Threatening to hang Shae, which forced a painful break-up

-Forcing Tyrion to marry Sansa

-Heading up a show trial against Tyrion for a murder that Tywin knows Tyrion didn't commit

-Putting Shae on the stand to condemn and humiliate Tyrion

-Allowing Cersei to use the Mountain as her champion and buy off Bronn

But the only plausible reason Tyrion could have for going to confront Tywin during the escape could possibly be that Tywin made Jaime lie about how Tyrion met Tysha? ...ok

[Marcus Agrippa]

Yes, the lack of point IS the point, which is why for so many of us it seems pointless when the time could have been spent elsewhere - namely, on the injustice that happened to Elia and her children, which is what the climax of the episode is supposed to be about.

THIS^ sorry but I have to put an emphasis on this- these 5 and half minutes were WASTED- just like crasters keep, and like some of the weird stuff in season 3. I know some readers defend the show but I find the whole thing wholly ineffiecent. Season 3 was the worst of these offenders but season 4 had a few scenes that were absymal and that were pointless.

[sj4iy]

THIS^ sorry but I have to put an emphasis on this- these 5 and half minutes were WASTED- just like crasters keep, and like some of the weird stuff in season 3. I know some readers defend the show but I find the whole thing wholly ineffiecent. Season 3 was the worst of these offenders but season 4 had a few scenes that were absymal and that were pointless.

You only think the time was 'wasted' because you didn't enjoy it.

[Dragon in the North]

I think the beetle scene wouldn't have been as negatively received if it:

a. was a little shorter

b. had gotten to a definitive point.

[Mr Fixit]

While you're so full of righteous vengeful anger that you're willing to kill your father at the expense of losing your life instead of getting away, make sure to look calm and mildly curious a la Peter Dinklage while climbing to his father's room. That would make it extra convincing that you're going on a rampage.

Also, it would be nice if you find your ex-lover/prostitute in your father's bed, kill her, while still not looking particularly angry

Yes, and?

There are countless accounts of people committing extremely horrific and savage murders seemingly without any perceivable reaction. ("Why did you do it?" "I don't know." Or rather, they do know, but it's such a maze of conflicting emotions and deep-seated issues that the mere notion of trying to parse out their own motivations is so painful that they either: a. completely shut down and try to forget everything or b. relive the moment again and again in an attempt to make sense of the events and of cause and effect that led them to their breaking point). We are talking about people that are either mentally disturbed or that are completely broken by their experiences. I can very easily believe that a disfigured and widely-hated person with self-esteem issues who was sentenced to death by his own father, and sister indirectly as well, on account of a testimony given by someone he loved, and who awaited execution that was to occur in a few hours, might be well past the point of caring for his life and only wanted the answer to one simple question: why? And then, when Tyrion killed Shae, he just imploded, which was pretty evident from his blank facial expressions.

confront your father, making absolutely clear to him that it's not your lifelong abuse that you're killing him for, but for calling your ex-lover a whore, which you've also called her, but that's different, and you are just defending her honor, after having killed her minutes before.

Don't be so literal. He didn't kill Tywin *just* because Tywin called Shae a whore; that was the trigger, a word that reminded him that Shae, when all was said and done, really was just a whore. You know, it's much like how many people are especially sensitive and angry when they recognise their own flaws in others. If you have a cowardly streak, for instance, especially if there was a moment in your life where it really hurt someone or that you've never forgiven yourself for, some people will flip out when they see something similar in those close to them. It's shame and anger and self-loathing in one explosive and nasty package.

Tyrion pulled the trigger not because he was "defending Shae's honour", but precisely because she was a whore, and Tywin's whore to boot. It's that, in Tyrion's eyes, Tywin didn't have the right to mock her since he was the one that turned her into a whore in the first place. Just like with Walder Frey and the Red Wedding or the Mountain and Elia and her children, Tywin used Shae as a means to dispose of another inconvenience and now, with a crossbow pointed at him, he had the temerity to deny everything ("You are my son. You think I would let Ilyn Payne take your head? You are a Lannister!") and lay blame at another's feet. In that moment, Tyrion probably saw his father as a hypocrite who spent his whole life covering and overcompensating for his weaknesses. What gall to call someone a whore when Tywin was in bed with every whore in the Seven Kingdoms that was willing to do his dirty work for him!

So yeah, Tyrion killed him right then and there. Because of whores, literal and metaphorical, and life-long abuse, and even Orson's goddamn beetles. Because what the fuck did he deserve to get to this point? How did it come to this? And what's worse, does it even matter in the end? Is there a good answer?

ETA: Good posts by Beric175 and GoldHandTheGood. Wholeheartedly agree.