Season 4 Impressions

[GoldHandTheGood]

I think the beetle scene wouldn't have been as negatively received if it:

a. was a little shorter

b. had gotten to a definitive point.

The definitive point being perhaps present in Tyrion's lack of a point. Orson kills beetles mindlessly, and life in general is rather random and mindless, ergo, Tyrion ends the monologue with no answer, as there is no answer. He'll never find out why Orson killed beetles the same way he'll never understand why life is so damn cruel. Is it a particularly mind-blowing monologue? No, the show has had better moments, and I do agree that it could have been shorter and placed elsewhere, leaving room for more pertinent plot points. I just don't understand why people hate the actual writing so much, considering it was a rather subtle and interesting scene on a show that tends to avoid not leaving the audience with a definitive answer (Sledgehammer style often).

Yes, the lack of point IS the point, which is why for so many of us it seems pointless when the time could have been spent elsewhere - namely, on the injustice that happened to Elia and her children, which is what the climax of the episode is supposed to be about.

I did think the scene might have been better placed elsewhere, so I don't disagree with you, I just don't get the hatred for the writing behind the scene. I'd have been interested to have seen what the reaction to it might have been if it had of been in a different episode, and we got Tysha, and Elia.

[GoldHandTheGood]

Yes, and?

There are countless accounts of people committing extremely horrific and savage murders seemingly without any perceivable reaction. ("Why did you do it?" "I don't know." Or rather, they do know, but it's such a maze of conflicting emotions and deep-seated issues that the mere notion of trying to parse out their own motivations is so painful that they either: a. completely shut down and try to forget everything or b. relive the moment again and again in an attempt to make sense of the events and of cause and effect that led them to their breaking point). We are talking about people that are either mentally disturbed or that are completely broken by their experiences. I can very easily believe that a disfigured and widely-hated person with self-esteem issues who was sentenced to death by his own father, and sister indirectly as well, on account of a testimony given by someone he loved, and who awaited execution that was to occur in a few hours, might be well past the point of caring for his life and only wanted the answer to one simple question: why? And then, when Tyrion killed Shae, he just imploded, which was pretty evident from his blank facial expressions.

Don't be so literal. He didn't kill Tywin *just* because Tywin called Shae a whore; that was the trigger, a word that reminded him that Shae, when all was said and done, really was just a whore. You know, it's much like how many people are especially sensitive and angry when they recognise their own flaws in others. If you have a cowardly streak, for instance, especially if there was a moment in your life where it really hurt someone or that you've never forgiven yourself for, some people will flip out when they see something similar in those close to them. It's shame and anger and self-loathing in one explosive and nasty package.

Tyrion pulled the trigger not because he was "defending Shae's honour", but precisely because she was a whore, and Tywin's whore to boot. It's that, in Tyrion's eyes, Tywin didn't have the right to mock her since he was the one that turned her into a whore in the first place. Just like with Walder Frey and the Red Wedding or the Mountain and Elia and her children, Tywin used Shae as a means to dispose of another inconvenience and now, with a crossbow pointed at him, he had the temerity to deny everything ("You are my son. You think I would let Ilyn Payne take your head? You are a Lannister!") and lay blame at another's feet. In that moment, Tyrion probably saw his father as a hypocrite who spent his whole life covering and overcompensating for his weaknesses. What gall to call someone a whore when Tywin was in bed with every whore in the Seven Kingdoms that was willing to do his dirty work for him!

So yeah, Tyrion killed him right then and there. Because of whores, literal and metaphorical, and life-long abuse, and even Orson's goddamn beetles. Because what the fuck did he deserve to get to this point? How did it come to this? And what's worse, does it even matter in the end? Is there a good answer?

ETA: Good posts by Beric175 and GoldHandTheGood. Wholeheartedly agree.

:cheers:

[Marcus Agrippa]

You only think the time was 'wasted' because you didn't enjoy it.

That might be the case. I didn't dislike until I watched it the third or forth time. Thought my Aunt did point out it kept Bran in the story. The beetles I hold deep contention with because it takes away from Elia. They should have been highlighting her more this season. That's just my opinion. Things are going to be moving quickly and where Oberyn will become a rallying cry the whole thing with Elia is what started this blood feud. On the side note tywin/ Arya was better then Bolton/ Arya- thought they served different purposes completely. The writers used it to highlight tywin. Martin used it to highlight Bolton unethical (only scratching the surface) behavior.

[Dragon in the North]

The definitive point being perhaps present in Tyrion's lack of a point. Orson kills beetles mindlessly, and life in general is rather random and mindless, ergo, Tyrion ends the monologue with no answer, as there is no answer. He'll never find out why Orson killed beetles the same way he'll never understand why life is so damn cruel. Is it a particularly mind-blowing monologue? No, the show has had better moments, and I do agree that it could have been shorter and placed elsewhere, leaving room for more pertinent plot points. I just don't understand why people hate the actual writing so much, considering it was a rather subtle and interesting scene on a show that tends to avoid not leaving the audience with a definitive answer (Sledgehammer style often).

I personally didn't have a problem with that scene. I was just speculating why other people would.

[Annara Snow]

Yes, and?

There are countless accounts of people committing extremely horrific and savage murders seemingly without any perceivable reaction. ("Why did you do it?" "I don't know." Or rather, they do know, but it's such a maze of conflicting emotions and deep-seated issues that the mere notion of trying to parse out their own motivations is so painful that they either: a. completely shut down and try to forget everything or b. relive the moment again and again in an attempt to make sense of the events and of cause and effect that led them to their breaking point). We are talking about people that are either mentally disturbed or that are completely broken by their experiences. I can very easily believe that a disfigured and widely-hated person with self-esteem issues who was sentenced to death by his own father, and sister indirectly as well, on account of a testimony given by someone he loved, and who awaited execution that was to occur in a few hours, might be well past the point of caring for his life and only wanted the answer to one simple question: why? And then, when Tyrion killed Shae, he just imploded, which was pretty evident from his blank facial expressions.

Yes, and?

I don't care what you can easily believe. What I care is what's actually on screen. And on screen, Tyrion hugged Jaime and thanked him for his life. On screen, Tyrion was happy to survive and grateful to Jaime, had a heartfelt goodbye from his brother, and didn't learn any new or shocking information about his father or anything else. On screen, Tyrion went up to the Tower of the Hand with a look that showed nothing but curiosity; no rage, no despair, nothing that would remotely suggest that this man either 1) intends to murder his father for all the wrongs he had done to him, or 2) intends to throw his life away by arguing with his father about his treatment of him (which was nothing new), even though it was unlikely Tywin would have let him go instead of calling the guards, if Tyrion does not kill him. On screen, Tyrion going up there instead getting the fuck out of KL ASAP made no sense.

Don't be so literal. He didn't kill Tywin *just* because Tywin called Shae a whore; that was the trigger, a word that reminded him that Shae, when all was said and done, really was just a whore. You know, it's much like how many people are especially sensitive and angry when they recognise their own flaws in others. If you have a cowardly streak, for instance, especially if there was a moment in your life where it really hurt someone or that you've never forgiven yourself for, some people will flip out when they see something similar in those close to them. It's shame and anger and self-loathing in one explosive and nasty package.

Tyrion pulled the trigger not because he was "defending Shae's honour", but precisely because she was a whore, and Tywin's whore to boot. It's that, in Tyrion's eyes, Tywin didn't have the right to mock her since he was the one that turned her into a whore in the first place. Just like with Walder Frey and the Red Wedding or the Mountain and Elia and her children, Tywin used Shae as a means to dispose of another inconvenience and now, with a crossbow pointed at him, he had the temerity to deny everything ("You are my son. You think I would let Ilyn Payne take your head? You are a Lannister!") and lay blame at another's feet. In that moment, Tyrion probably saw his father as a hypocrite who spent his whole life covering and overcompensating for his weaknesses. What gall to call someone a whore when Tywin was in bed with every whore in the Seven Kingdoms that was willing to do his dirty work for him!

Tyrion saw his father as a hypocrite? Tywin was a major hypocrite. But guess what: in the show, Tyrion is also a real hypocrite! Tywin did not turn Shae into a whore, Tyrion had hired her as a whore much before that. And just two episodes earlier, Tyrion was calling Shae a whore himself, saying he was crazy to believe that a "whore" could love him. So, it's OK when Tyrion does not, but not when Tywin does? If the idea behind the scene was to make Tyrion into a hypocrite, great, they've succeeded.

It's almost admirable how much energy you're willing to invest into defending the show all the time on every possible occasion. But sometimes I find it hard to believe that even you believe that the show is so perfect as you're trying to make people think. Tyrion's parts of the finale were very badly done and unconvincing, and your attempts to rationalize it aren't convincing and keep skirting around the problems that I've already spelled out.

[Annara Snow]

That might be the case. I didn't dislike until I watched it the third or forth time. Thought my Aunt did point out it kept Bran in the story. The beetles I hold deep contention with because it takes away from Elia. They should have been highlighting her more this season. That's just my opinion. Things are going to be moving quickly and where Oberyn will become a rallying cry the whole thing with Elia is what started this blood feud. On the side note tywin/ Arya was better then Bolton/ Arya- thought they served different purposes completely. The writers used it to highlight tywin. Martin used it to highlight Bolton unethical (only scratching the surface) behavior.

Tywin/Arya served no purpose except to give Charles Dance more screentime and to have scenes of two characters meeting and talking even though they never do in the books and having "cool" and "fun" conversations. But they were pointless, illogical, out of character for Tywin entirely, made no sense with the actual class structure that the world of Westeros is supposed to have, and were the reason why Arya's Harrenhal arc was so watered down in the show. Instead of moving around the castle almost anonymous, being beaten up and treated like shit, watching horrible things happen to the smallfolk, eventually learning that the "bad guys" are not just on one side, feeling like a "mouse" and learning to keep her mouth shut to survive, and being forced to grow up so early and to use stealth and lie, manipulate and murder; show!Arya continued to be just a lovable tomboy that everyone finds super cool (and I mean, in-universe, by other characters). Not only she gets to have a plum and comfortable serving job for no reason at all (except that she's a girl, I guess?), but she can talk back to Tywin himself and he'll just find it so charming, as opposed to telling her to shut up or he'll have her tongue cut (Roose's reaction to Arya even asking him something; which is most likely closer to what someone like Tywin would do if he was written in character). And the actual dialogue was not that great either, giving us such gems as Arya saying: "Most girls are stupid". :bang: You'd think that they confused Arya with Cersei, who is the one with internalized misogyny in the books; but this is actually typical of the show, which constantly has "strong female characters" (i.e. those who use swords and physical violence) express contempt for other women ("regular" women, who are, presumably, weak and stupid).

I could go on about how OOC Tywin was, but here's a post by a major Arya fan on Tumblr who summarizes most of what's wrong with those scenes: http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/95748094877/hi-i-know-this-message-is-kinda-late-really-late-but

and another post also about the problems with Arya's arc in general as well as (the lack of) showing how awful war was on the smallfolk: http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/74908357659/aryas-chapters-in-acok-horrified-me-i-watched-the

[Annara Snow]

I am fine with how the Tysha story works in the books. But I don't understand why people are so strongly attached to it as the trigger for Tyrion confronting Tywin.

So Tyrion learns that he met his ex under different circumstances than he thought, and that lights the spark that causes Tyrion to risk his escape, murder another ex, and kill his father? Bearing in mind that Tyrion knew Tysha for a total of 2 weeks more than 10 years ago, that Tywin forced Tyrion to participate in her gang rape, and that Tyrion has had a lot of sex since then.

Tyrion in the book isn't triggered by learning that Tysha died, or learning about her gang rape, finding out her whereabouts. He just learns that Jaime didn't set up their meeting. Given how rich Tyrion was, Tysha still had ample reason to pretend to love him, and again, their entire relationship lasted two weeks and Tysha is long gone.

The two weeks that Tyrion kept going back to in his mind, because that was the only time when he experienced love from a woman and had a real romantic relationship. Tyrion is very strongly attached to his Tysha memory. "Having a lot of sex since then" means nothing, since he was paying for all that sex. Even during his relationship with Shae, Tyrion tries to convince himself that Shae loves him, but at the same time keeps reminding himself that she is just there for his gold. But when he is on the brink of death after the BW battle, it's his memories of Tysha that he comes back to. Even though he thought she was paid to "pretend" to love him, those memories contradict that - she sounds completely genuine and loving.

It's that flashback that convinced me that Tysha really loved Tyrion when I read ACOK - even though I still thought at the time that Jaime had initially paid her to sleep with Tyrion, since there was no information provided to contradict it. (I mean, even if he had, she was, what, 13-14 and a virgin, so it's not like she could have had any experience as a prostitute; if he had paid her, it would just have meant that she was a poor orphan girl in need of eating something.) So Jaime's revelation in ASOS made perfect sense. But even with Tyrion thinking that Tysha was paid to pretend she loved him, somewhere deep inside something must have been telling him that what they had seemed far too genuine for that to be true, which is why his mind went back to her, instead of to Shae, who never acted like she loved him even when she was trying to sell the "girlfriend experience". That flashback of Tysha was a sharp contrast to the way book Shae interacts with Tyrion.

"Given how rich Tyrion was, Tysha still had ample reason to pretend to love him,"

Oh, please. It's utterly ludicrous to think that a 13/14-year virgin with no experience in prostitution was so incredibly adept at manipulating men and putting such a perfect performance of being in love with someone. By contrast, Shae, who was a few years older and was an experienced prostitute, was never really able to put on a good performance of having genuine feelings for Tyrion (she only managed to make it look like she enjoyed sex with him, which was probably what the prostitutes were required to learn to do; I doubt that "make him feel you love him" is often the request the prostitutes get).

And if we are to assume that, by some incredible set of circumstances, Tysha had been given an extensive lesson by her crofter parents on "How to catch a highborn lord and make him think you love him" (which they, obviously, would have known so much about), surely they would have also taught her this essential truth: you should only be his mistress, this will provide all the gold, comfort and security, but don't try to marry him, because that would not go well with his father or other lords or anyone of his class. Of course, few people would guess how far Tywin would take it; but most lords would react by either annulling the marriage and sending the girl away, or disinheriting the son if he sticks by it (more likely, just threaten to disinherit him, at which point most lordlings would become obedient). Only a naive adolescent would have thought that this could ever end well, or maybe would not think about the consequences and the reality of class structure because they're both very young and in love.

I think that the only reason Tyrion bought the story about Tysha having been a prostitute and pretending to love him was because he was so insecure, because Tywin managed to convince him that he was unlovable. GRRM himself, in a recent interview, put it as "Tywin thought nobody could love Tyrion, because he didn't love him".

But I guess since show Tywin is down with chillin' with serving girls and telling them his life story, maybe show Tywin is not supposed to be a guy who would go to drastic measures if his son, no matter how he felt about said son, married a common girl...

It isn't just that Tysha isn't even a character on the show. It is also that this small reveal about the Tysha story doesn't make a ton of sense as the motivation for murder.

The list of Tywin's crimes against Tyrion:

-Mean, absent parenting

-Refusing to give Tyrion his birthright

-Forcibly divorcing Tyrion from his wife

-Having the wife gang raped in front of Tyrion and sent away

-Putting Tyrion in the vanguard to die in the battle against Stark forces

-Relegating Tyrion to a closet under Pycelle's ministrations after Tyrion successfully defended Kings Landing

-Telling Tyrion that Tywin's greatest sacrifice in life was not murdering him

-Threatening to hang Shae, which forced a painful break-up

-Forcing Tyrion to marry Sansa

-Heading up a show trial against Tyrion for a murder that Tywin knows Tyrion didn't commit

-Putting Shae on the stand to condemn and humiliate Tyrion

-Allowing Cersei to use the Mountain as her champion and buy off Bronn

But the only plausible reason Tyrion could have for going to confront Tywin during the escape could possibly be that Tywin made Jaime lie about how Tyrion met Tysha? ...ok

And none of that was new information that Tyrion had just learned and was therefore full of rage and despair so much that he forget about getting the fuck out of KL and saving his life. Which was also less likely since Tyrion did not have a big fallout with Jaime, but was glad and thankful for Jaime's help.

[Mr Fixit]

What I care is what's actually on screen. And on screen, Tyrion hugged Jaime and thanked him for his life. On screen, Tyrion was happy to survive and grateful to Jaime, had a heartfelt goodbye from his brother, and didn't learn any new or shocking information about his father or anything else. On screen, Tyrion went up to the Tower of the Hand with a look that showed nothing but curiosity; no rage, no despair, nothing that would remotely suggest that this man either 1) intends to murder his father for all the wrongs he had done to him, or 2) intends to throw his life away by arguing with his father about his treatment of him (which was nothing new), even though it was unlikely Tywin would have let him go instead of calling the guards, if Tyrion does not kill him. On screen, Tyrion going up there instead getting the fuck out of KL ASAP made no sense.

Of course it was new. Tywin ordered Tyrion executed after a mock trial. I think there are plenty of people in our world whose parents treat them like shit all their lives. But if they now resorted to framing them for a crime they didn't commit in order to outright kill them, I'd like to think that's... how shall we say... a new development in that loving parent-child relationship. Saying there's nothing new that Tyrion hadn't already seen from his family is simply not true.

Tywin did not turn Shae into a whore, Tyrion had hired her as a whore much before that. And just two episodes earlier, Tyrion was calling Shae a whore himself, saying he was crazy to believe that a "whore" could love him. So, it's OK when Tyrion does not, but not when Tywin does? If the idea behind the scene was to make Tyrion into a hypocrite, great, they've succeeded.

Literal again. Of course she was a whore. I have read the books and watched the show, you know. But Tyrion is the one who deluded himself all the time. And anyway, he didn't have anything against whores. He always enjoyed their services, paid and treated them well. He felt some kinship and empathy for fellow cripples, bastards, and broken things. Thing is, now he knows that Shae betrayed him, that she was "turned into a whore" by Tywin, just like his first wife was "turned into a whore" with the whole garrison fucking her (although she too, like Shae, already was a whore, in the show at least). I am not really interested into delving into real and faux-psychology here. If you have trouble understanding extreme human motivations and behaviours unless they stick to a pre-determined script, there's nothing I can do about that.

I don't care what you can easily believe.

It's almost admirable how much energy you're willing to invest into defending the show

I find it hard to believe that even you believe that the show is so perfect as you're trying to make people think.

your attempts to rationalize it aren't convincing and keep skirting around the problems

Have we met? Have I insulted you on the street somewhere? I don't have a habit of doing so, but I guess it's possible. I mean we do live in the same city. If so, I do apologise. I would appreciate, however, the courtesy of allowing me my opinion without insinuating that I'm being dishonest just because you disagree. Best regards.

[Konradsmith]

Agh. No need to escalate further. You're both lovely posters with well-formed opinions that happen to not cohere. Let's all just drink rye happily (or is that just me?)...

[Mr Fixit]

Agh. No need to escalate further. You're both lovely posters with well-formed opinions that happen to not cohere. Let's all just drink rye happily (or is that just me?)...

I'm willing if she is. :cool4:

[sj4iy]

Next season with all of its changes is going to make this an interesting place to be in, I fear.

[Le Cygne]

I put this on the other thread...

[PatrickStormborn]

I think that the only reason Tyrion bought the story about Tysha having been a prostitute and pretending to love him was because he was so insecure, because Tywin managed to convince him that he was unlovable. GRRM himself, in a recent interview, put it as "Tywin thought nobody could love Tyrion, because he didn't love him".

But I guess since show Tywin is down with chillin' with serving girls and telling them his life story, maybe show Tywin is not supposed to be a guy who would go to drastic measures if his son, no matter how he felt about said son, married a common girl...

This whole post was brilliant. :) The point about Tywin not believign anyone could love him is so crucial. But one of the reasons I think it hits Tyrion so hard is because Jaime didn't believe it either - at least from Tyrion's perspective. He expects it from Tywin and Cersei... but Jaime? It obviously hurts him so much more to think that even Jaime couldn't believe that anyone would ever love him.

And that one short moment in the books is a far more engaging (and heart-breaking) piece of drama than anything else on offer in season 4.

[larastone]

This whole post was brilliant. :) The point about Tywin not believign anyone could love him is so crucial. But one of the reasons I think it hits Tyrion so hard is because Jaime didn't believe it either - at least from Tyrion's perspective. He expects it from Tywin and Cersei... but Jaime? It obviously hurts him so much more to think that even Jaime couldn't believe that anyone would ever love him.

And that one short moment in the books is a far more engaging (and heart-breaking) piece of drama than anything else on offer in season 4.

completely agreed

[sj4iy]

And that one short moment in the books is a far more engaging (and heart-breaking) piece of drama than anything else on offer in season 4.

Hyperbole at its best. To which I completely and utterly disagree.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Tywin/Arya served no purpose except to give Charles Dance more screentime and to have scenes of two characters meeting and talking even though they never do in the books and having "cool" and "fun" conversations. But they were pointless, illogical, out of character for Tywin entirely, made no sense with the actual class structure that the world of Westeros is supposed to have, and were the reason why Arya's Harrenhal arc was so watered down in the show. Instead of moving around the castle almost anonymous, being beaten up and treated like shit, watching horrible things happen to the smallfolk, eventually learning that the "bad guys" are not just on one side, feeling like a "mouse" and learning to keep her mouth shut to survive, and being forced to grow up so early and to use stealth and lie, manipulate and murder; show!Arya continued to be just a lovable tomboy that everyone finds super cool (and I mean, in-universe, by other characters). Not only she gets to have a plum and comfortable serving job for no reason at all (except that she's a girl, I guess?), but she can talk back to Tywin himself and he'll just find it so charming, as opposed to telling her to shut up or he'll have her tongue cut (Roose's reaction to Arya even asking him something; which is most likely closer to what someone like Tywin would do if he was written in character). And the actual dialogue was not that great either, giving us such gems as Arya saying: "Most girls are stupid". :bang: You'd think that they confused Arya with Cersei, who is the one with internalized misogyny in the books; but this is actually typical of the show, which constantly has "strong female characters" (i.e. those who use swords and physical violence) express contempt for other women ("regular" women, who are, presumably, weak and stupid).

I could go on about how OOC Tywin was, but here's a post by a major Arya fan on Tumblr who summarizes most of what's wrong with those scenes: http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/95748094877/hi-i-know-this-message-is-kinda-late-really-late-but

and another post also about the problems with Arya's arc in general as well as (the lack of) showing how awful war was on the smallfolk: http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/74908357659/aryas-chapters-in-acok-horrified-me-i-watched-the

OOO good points. I won't disagree with that. I have a problem when I read or watch anything- I tend to focus on the character I know nothing about. Roose was unknown to me at the time and this revealed is eventual betryal. I never considered the small folk but I have noted the extreme amounts of sexism in the show.

[Janicia]

Tyrion saw his father as a hypocrite? Tywin was a major hypocrite. But guess what: in the show, Tyrion is also a real hypocrite! Tywin did not turn Shae into a whore, Tyrion had hired her as a whore much before that. And just two episodes earlier, Tyrion was calling Shae a whore himself, saying he was crazy to believe that a "whore" could love him. So, it's OK when Tyrion does not, but not when Tywin does? If the idea behind the scene was to make Tyrion into a hypocrite, great, they've succeeded.

Tyrion has consistently viewed "whore" as a highly loaded term, especially as applied to Shae. Tyrion almost never uses that word - he consistently called Shae "my lady", and he also avoided calling other prostitutes, such as Ros, whores.

Tyrion always reacted negatively to other people, even Shae, calling Shae a "whore".

Tyrion throws the word "whore" in Shae's face during the break-up because that's the most painful thing he can think of to say. He throws the word at her again in the trial for the same reason.

It is completely consistent that Tyrion would react very negatively to Tywin saying "whore", both because Tyrion doesn't like the word and because the "whore" would be a trigger for the devastating end of his relationship with Shae. In the context of the Tyrion-Shae breakup and a dead Shae lying in Tywin's bed, calling Shae a "whore" is the most painful thing Tywin could have said to Tyrion.

[PatrickStormborn]

Hyperbole at its best. To which I completely and utterly disagree.

Cool.

I wouldn't call it "hyperbole", more like "my opinion". But you may disagree for whatever reason - whether it's because you don't really see the significance of Tyrion "losing" Jaime (from his perspective), or because you think there were more emotional punches in season 4. If it's the latter, you should understand the sentiment of my post instead of dismissing it as hyperbole.

[PatrickStormborn]

Tyrion has consistently viewed "whore" as a highly loaded term, especially as applied to Shae. Tyrion almost never uses that word - he consistently called Shae "my lady", and he also avoided calling other prostitutes, such as Ros, whores.

Tyrion always reacted negatively to other people, even Shae, calling Shae a "whore".

Tyrion throws the word "whore" in Shae's face during the break-up because that's the most painful thing he can think of to say. He throws the word at her again in the trial for the same reason.

It is completely consistent that Tyrion would react very negatively to Tywin saying "whore", both because Tyrion doesn't like the word and because the "whore" would be a trigger for the devastating end of his relationship with Shae. In the context of the Tyrion-Shae breakup and a dead Shae lying in Tywin's bed, calling Shae a "whore" is the most painful thing Tywin could have said to Tyrion.

The problem with this is that you're acting as if the way Tyrion killed Tywin was completely created by the showrunners. It wasn't. They removed Tysha and changed Shae's death, but they decided to keep the word "whore" as the trigger for Tywin's death.

In some ways you're right - after all, it's still plausible. But you shouldn't defend it as if it was a creative choice by the showrunners, because it wasn't. And in that case, I think it's fair to argue that it resonates better in the books than on the show, where they could have changed the trigger that makes Tyrion finally kill Tywin.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

While I don't think the beetle scene was the creme de la creme of tv writing, I don't understand the sheer amount of hatred it seems to get. I also think a few people missed its point when I hear them say stuff like "it just ran on and then was left without a point". The lack of a point, in many ways, was the point, as Tyrion finds himself unable to wholly comprehend Orson's reasons for the beetle massacres, as much as he cannot wrap his head around the reasoning behind determining a man's fate by trial by combat. He very much at that moment feels as insignificant and helpless as a beetle, and hits on a very nihilistic truth about the random, pointless, and futile nature of life and death, ergo the lack of a satisfactory point to the rambling, as Tyrion is perplexed by the tragic absurdity of Orson's actions, as much as he is by the tragic absurdity of the situation he finds himself in. What I love about that scene is its multiple meanings, metaphors etc, and its awkward humor, considering the scene it's approaching.

I get why people don't like it though, as those minutes could have been used for Tysha, but it gets a ridiculous amount of hate.

A lot of people hated the scene because Tyrion kept talking and talking and everybody was hyped about the combat, specially those who knew how it would end.