Andal Invasion

[TOCR815]

When the Andals came to Westeros and fought against the First Men, how exactly did they merge with them after the conquest? We know that some of the great houses retained their kingship like the Lannisters, Gardeners and Durrendons, while others like the Mudds were wiped out for resisting too fiercely. Did the Andals simply let the First Men houses continue on ruling if they submitted? I don't quite understand how it went down.

[Boarsbane]

The Andals probably married the daughters of First Men and let them keep their House names for the sake of assimilation, except in some cases like the Arryns.

[Fat Trell]

Most likely the Andals married into the more powerful houses.

That isn't to say the Andals and First Men entered these marriage alliances as equal parties however. The destruction of most Weirwoods south of the Neck leads me to think these were more Sansa-esque marriage alliances than Dareon-esque joinings.

[Ser Lepus]

It's likely that the Andals weren't able to just sweep the First Men in front of them. They could have seized the Vale of Arryn first (which is closest to Andalos) and other chunks of Westeros, but the First Men stood their ground in other places, kind of like it happened in Great Britain, where the Anglo-Saxons pushed the Celts but didn't manage to conquer all of the island (Scotland and Walles remained in the hands of the Gaelic and the Scots), and later the Scandinavians arrived and sacked the island and took chunks of it, but were unable to conquer it, and even later the Normen seized power but couldn't completely crush the Celts and Anglos.

If the Andals were like the Anglo-Saxan and the Scandinavians, they would have seized some chunks of Westeros for themselves (like the Vale); the FM nobility would become vassals to Andal overlords in some places (like the Bracken and Blackwood in the Riverlands); the FM would stand their ground but become culturally assimilated in other places, like the Stormlands and the Reach, and in the North the FM stood their ground AND kept their religion and part of their culture.

[Fightbringer]

I think it really depended on the case. The Andal Invasion wasnt like Aegon's Conquest, it didnt happen all at once, it took place over several centuries i think. Obviously it seems that First Men houses co-existed with the Andals from the begininng of the invasion, we know at least that the Royce's are a first men house, so they were probably around in the vale before the Arryns came along, and another few vale houses sound like they might have been as well. They probably bent the knee to the Andals, rather than being forced to marry into Andal houses, as I'm unsure what value the Andals would see in retaining the name of an old house, given that it was a migration, as well as an invasion. Of course over time these houses must have married so many andals that they are likely more andal than first men, but they still keep there customs

I imagine things played out similarly in other kingdoms, with the houses that bent the knee to the andals being able to keep there lands. On the wiki it says that the Hightowers 'Allied with the newcomers' so they definitely did this, but of course there would probably be exceptions to the rule, I'd imagine in the case of blackwood or brackens there might have been since its difficult to imagine that they both bent the knee at the same time to the andals (as they would have been fighting on the same side in that case) but overall it was probably a course of bending the knee at the right time, then gradual assimilation through time and marriage

[Stormking Alesander I]

The Andals probably married the daughters of First Men and let them keep their House names for the sake of assimilation, except in some cases like the Arryns.

:agree: True

[The Frosted King]

The Lannisters aren't first men, but descended from the Andals you outline in the op.

[Djinn]

Each interaction must have been different because of the wildly different outcomes,some places their overwhelmed the FM natives, others they integrated and others still they failed outright to establish a significant presence at all. The Andals were a technological more advanced people, with a different culture, so in order for some FM names to remain, there must have been some particular reason for it, after all Artys Arryn didn't kept the Griffon title,the Manderly's didn't took a FM name or later the Mudd name disappeared altogether, while in other places, ruling FM families continued to dominate the region. The Andal invasions are more of a consecutive waves of migration, hitting different areas of Westeros in different ways. Since the first(and likely second) areas were Vale and Riverlands, the results there must have influenced the reactions in the other FM leaders. Notice that culturally, other then the Ironborn(with a rare case of reserve Andalization) and Dorne(with it's later Rhoynarization), most of Westeros was heavily influenced by it (yes, even the North, if in a lesser degree since the wilding's, particularly the Thenn, are a much ''purer'' source of FM ancestry and traditions).

[Djinn]

The Lannisters aren't first men, but descended from the Andals you outline in the op.

Just like the Stark's are descendend from wildings.

[The Golden Wolf]

don't ya'll start this again. The Lannisters have First Men Blood and the Starks have a drop of Wilding blood in them if Bael the Bard can be taken as truth. I would rather say that for sure The Lannisters have First Men blood from Long ago but Bael may or may not have impregnated the Stark Girl. If he did get a child upon the Stark girl in the legends it was not out of love and would have been reason for great vengeance from her, the child, and the then King in the North.

Back on topic, It says it took the Andals 700 years to fully conquer the kingdoms below the Neck with them Falling one after the other. that could mean that they took their time and consolidated their power in the conquered kingdoms before moving on. The Vale was first, then either the Riverlands or the Stormlands, after that Dorne or the Reach, with the Westerlands probably being last before the attacks on the North began in earnest. The great Houses were probably supplanted or intermarried into and the lesser houses were the same way with some bowing and accepting the new religion. all houses below the Neck probably had to give up their faith in the Old Gods and their Weirwoods or face extinction.

Whether this was due to waves of migration from Andalos or Them encountering significant resistance and having to go at a slower pace and change tactics no one really can say for sure.

[nara]

The Lannisters aren't first men, but descended from the Andals you outline in the op.

Do we know if the Casterlys (the original kings of the Rock) were Andals or First Men?

[Lion of the West]

Do we know if the Casterlys (the original kings of the Rock) were Andals or First Men?

Considering that the Casterlys supposedly lived in the Age of Heroes its fairly safe to say they were First Men, if they ever existed. Casterly could just as well be word for "our", "big" or "strong" that became a name and later a myth was spun around how Lann tricked the Casterlys from the Rock.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The Casterlys would have to be first men as its said that Lann at least pre-dated the Andal Invasion. His descendants married Andals.

[Ravenkingsamurai]

Given that the Andal invasion is based in part on the Anglo-Saxon invasion, its worth noting that genetically very small percentage of people have "Anglo-Saxon" DNA, and its even been hypothisised that old anglo-saxon english is in fact based mosly on languages already present in England. And yet the people in england seem totally anglo-saxon.So then, heres theorie on the Andal invasion:

It was no mass movement of people migrating to Westeros; rather, its just a purerly military invasion which displaced the upper class but genetically most of the population remains FM. Those rulers not removed by conquest-as in "andal" areas like the Vale and Stormlands- became puppet states and assimilated culturally-as in the Riverlands and Reach. These new conquerors in insecure areas may have adopted the names on vanquished ( and nearly extinct native families) to legitimize their reign.

I also believe that many " Andal" customs are actually native FM customs whoes origines were deliberately confused or covered up by Maesters ( possibly on the orders of their new rulers wanting to be seen as bringing "civilisation" to those poor, "savage" FM.)

[WildBlood]

It reminds me of the Seanchan in WOT

[Lost Melnibonean]

When the Andals came to Westeros and fought against the First Men, how exactly did they merge with them after the conquest? We know that some of the great houses retained their kingship like the Lannisters, Gardeners and Durrendons, while others like the Mudds were wiped out for resisting too fiercely. Did the Andals simply let the First Men houses continue on ruling if they submitted? I don't quite understand how it went down.

Conquest, marriage, rape and extortion/"protection," just like in the real world.

[Lion of the West]

Given that the Andal invasion is based in part on the Anglo-Saxon invasion, its worth noting that genetically very small percentage of people have "Anglo-Saxon" DNA, and its even been hypothisised that old anglo-saxon english is in fact based mosly on languages already present in England. And yet the people in england seem totally anglo-saxon.So then, heres theorie on the Andal invasion:

It was no mass movement of people migrating to Westeros; rather, its just a purerly military invasion which displaced the upper class but genetically most of the population remains FM. Those rulers not removed by conquest-as in "andal" areas like the Vale and Stormlands- became puppet states and assimilated culturally-as in the Riverlands and Reach. These new conquerors in insecure areas may have adopted the names on vanquished ( and nearly extinct native families) to legitimize their reign.

I also believe that many " Andal" customs are actually native FM customs whoes origines were deliberately confused or covered up by Maesters ( possibly on the orders of their new rulers wanting to be seen as bringing "civilisation" to those poor, "savage" FM.)

Possible but the way you say it, it sounds way to organized and with a centralized planning for me to agree to it.

[Lord Reaver]

Back on topic, It says it took the Andals 700 years to fully conquer the kingdoms below the Neck with them Falling one after the other. that could mean that they took their time and consolidated their power in the conquered kingdoms before moving on. The Vale was first, then either the Riverlands or the Stormlands, after that Dorne or the Reach, with the Westerlands probably being last before the attacks on the North began in earnest.

The Iron Islands were definitely the last (maybe even after the attempts on the North), and the wording used is "washed over", which I suppose you can take pretty much any way you like. It doesn't sound like the Andals were substantially contributing to the population, though.

[The Golden Wolf]

Yeah. The Andal Invasion is something I would love to know about more in detail. They Would have had to come in significant numbers to be able to take and consolidate the Vale. After that their numbers were probably bolstered by newly converted First Men. This would have helped them in conquering other kingdoms which were much more fragmented in those times making them easier to pick off.

The Andal Invasion could be seen as the beginning of the waning of the Magic of the Old Gods. this could also be why Warging and all other powers associated with them became stigmatized.

I wonder if the Citedal was formed after the Andals arrived? If Ol' Nan's tales contains truths in them then the first Men had a deeper connection with nature and could communicate across vast distances just with Warging.

[Ravenkingsamurai]

Possible but the way you say it, it sounds way to organized and with a centralized planning for me to agree to it.

In that case i apologise. What i mean to say is, it was a swift, old fashioned military conquest, with consolidation and house-name taking ( along with marriages) coming afterwards. It was not a mass migration