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[Colonel Green]

If their speciality was water magic, why the Rhyonar chose the one place we know it's full of desert? Wouldn't it be more logic to go to the Riverlands?

Then again, maybe Dorne wasn't their first option.

I would imagine that after making it to Westeros at all in their rag-tag fleet they weren't in great shape to move anywhere else.

[Fire Eater]

The Rhoynar were the most part a peaceful people who didn't seek to expand beyond the reaches of the Rhoyne, and fought mostly to defend their borders. They had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time after Valyria destroyed its rival in the east, Ghis, and turned its gaze north and west.

The Valyrians originally had the advantage against the Rhoynish princes, because the princes usually fought independently while the Valyrian colonies were united, and had the backing of the Freehold. The destruction of Sar Noy opened their eyes to what was happening with Valyria seizing control of the Rhoyne.

Nymeria managed to be right saying that war against Valyria was one they couldn't win, because . . . dragons and Valyria likely had an army that could match Rhoyne's. Yet, none of the other princes listened to her, because they didn't want to accept the idea that they were actually powerless to stop Valyria's expansion over the Rhoyne, and Garin's idea at least gave some feeling of being in control rather than being powerless.

As for Garin, the Valyrians made the mistake of underestimating him the first time around. The Rhoynish water wizards' water spouts inhibited the dragons, and the Rhoynish likely had 10,000+ archers to aim at the dragons who likely had to fly low as a result of the water spouts. Garin didn't seem to realize that Valyria would throw everything they had at him if he threatened their empire. His army and few water wizards couldn't stand against 300+ dragons, obviously.

They also put the men of Garin's army to the sword when captured with their brutality likely being out of pride with the defeats Garin made them suffer, and having to make then send hundreds of dragons against him and to send a message to the Rhoynish and other peoples who might war with Valyria. They also wanted to make Garin suffer, and watch his city be destroyed and his people killed and enslaved. But he made sure the Valyrians got theirs

[ARYa_Nym]

With Dorne Nymeria was able to make a marriage alliance and that may not have been an option at the time elsewhere. Plus, while the Riverlands has water Tyrion's chapters reminded me of Braavos with the canals only it may have been more beautiful. They might find not find the Riverlands pleasing which has water but I doubt it looked like or is setup like the Essos cities. Nymeria burned the ships so they wouldn't go back. I guess going to a desert area really sets it in that the past is behind them and this is their future now.

[RumHam]

If their speciality was water magic, why the Rhyonar chose the one place we know it's full of desert? Wouldn't it be more logic to go to the Riverlands?

Then again, maybe Dorne wasn't their first option.

I think it's possible/likely that most of the "water wizards" died in the war. Even if some survived, we've heard from maester Luwin that magic has been in decline for some time and "Valyria was the last ember." Any surviving water wizards may have been reduced to performing minor feats by the time of Aegon's Conquest. I'm thinking along the lines of the mage who climbed the fiery ladder early in Clash, and the Pyromancers who were supplanted by the Maesters as magic died and their only remaining power was the production of wildfyre.

Edit: more to your point, It seems to me the Rhoynish water wizards viewed the Royne specifically as the source of their powers, not just any river.

“Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets.”

[SpaceChampion]

The Stark family tree only shows two northern houses with Stark blood entering into them -- Umber and Cerwyn. That's hardly "lots". All the other marriages are of blood entering into the Stark line. It does not go into detail regarding which houses Stark daughters are marrying into. Certainly Jon Snow's statement is correct, but this tree doesn't actually shed light on that.

[The Wolves]

The Stark family tree only shows two northern houses with Stark blood entering into them -- Umber and Cerwyn. That's hardly "lots". All the other marriages are of blood entering into the Stark line. It does not go into detail regarding which houses Stark daughters are marrying into. Certainly Jon Snow's statement is correct, but this tree doesn't actually shed light on that.

True and also the Starks have a 8000 year old line and some or most of their bannermen are also thousands of yeas old also and this is a small family tree that we got of a very old dynasty. They probably married into all the Northern houses I wouldn't be surprised.

[Lord Annaly]

True and also the Starks have a 8000 year old line and some or most of their bannermen are also thousands of yeas old also and this is a small family tree that we got of a very old dynasty. They probably married into all the Northern houses I wouldn't be surprised.

Exactly, this is just a tiny snapshot of the main family members. Just like the Taragryen Family Tree does not mention every princess who did not marry a family member.

I would reckon that many Stark women married into the majority of Stark banner-Houses but unless it is of note (or space allows) it will not be mentioned.

[Maia]

Exactly, this is just a tiny snapshot of the main family members. Just like the Taragryen Family Tree does not mention every princess who did not marry a family member.

I hope it does, though, because it could be important and give us more perspective on possible claims to the throne. Also, Targaryen princesses marrying outside the family wasn't such a frequent occurrence that it would be space-prohibitive to show it. For that matter, there are not so many Stark females on the Stark tree that it couldn't be indicated which families they married into, like it was done with Umbers and Cerwyns.

[TheCrannogDweller]

The Stark family tree only shows two northern houses with Stark blood entering into them -- Umber and Cerwyn. That's hardly "lots".

This number will probably grow when you account for the daughters of those Stark wives - and grow even further when you consider their granddaughters.

Plus, as others have said, this tree is only a snapshot of the recent generations - it barely covers the last 2/3 of the Targaryen era.

[Lord Annaly]

This sample does not even mention Edwyle's sister who married into House Royce and their subsequent daughters who married other Vale Houses.

Eventually some lines die out or become so far removed and diluted that they don't really matter when it comes down to the nitty gritty of deciding on place in any Line of Succession.

As for the Targaryen family trees that we know about there are many daughters who are either not mentioned or their marriages are not accounted for.

In Aegon V's family we know that he had two sisters who had children that were not the products of marriages to their brothers. And so far we don't have any immediate family members who could be their husband's. So if their children were legitimate it is a fair assumption that the two of them married outside the Family.

And as we have seen with Rhaenyra, having an added line from another female line does not make your claim any stronger.

[Free Northman Reborn]

My question is : These intricate family trees are largely meaningless, yet must take an immense amount of time and mental gymnastics to design and keep straight.

Is it really worth it?

[Maia]

As for the Targaryen family trees that we know about there are many daughters who are either not mentioned or their marriages are not accounted for..

No official Targaryen family trees have been released yet, as far as I know. And even this Stark tree is an early draft and there is still hope that the final version would contain more detail, including, but not limited to the info re: Houses in which the Stark daughters were married.

And as we have seen with Rhaenyra, having an added line from another female line does not make your claim any stronger.

No, we have seen that it was an argument to support her for some. Unfortunately for her, problematic situation with her older sons' paternity weakened this advantage of her claim.

[Lord Annaly]

No official Targaryen family trees have been released yet, as far as I know.

We have all the official Targaryen Family trees from the books. And then those extra bits from SSM.

And so from those we have knowledge of Targaryen princesses who have or may have married outside the family due to the unavailability of men in the family or due to political needs.

[Lord Annaly]

My question is : These intricate family trees are largely meaningless, yet must take an immense amount of time and mental gymnastics to design and keep straight.

Is it really worth it?

Yes and No.

Worth it if it pertains to the story at hand but the extraneous members who have little or no bearing on the narrative for most.

For me personally I like some of the extra detail...I just don't go looking for extra drama or conspiracies about those. Usually if nothing if given about them I take it that the explanation is the most simplest.

[Maia]

We have all the official Targaryen Family trees from the books. And then those extra bits from SSM.

But there are no Targaryen family trees in ASOIAF books, only a list of Targaryen monarchs with dates of their reign. We also know various details from the novels themselves, Dunk and Egg stories, TPaTQ and SSM. But the first official family tree is going to be in the World book.

And so from those we have knowledge of Targaryen princesses who have or may have married outside the family due to the unavailability of men in the family or due to political needs.

And IMHO, it is fairly likely that we are going to be shown into which families they have married via the official Targaryen family tree that is going to be in the World Book.

We don't know that Maekar's girls married outside of the family, for instance. They could have married Daeron and Aerion, for all we know, or Rhaegel's twins.

Free Northman:

IMHO, the family trees are quite worth it, because they help us see the events in the books proper in context.

For instance, if they show which Starks joined NW and which died before being able to marry, it would tell us whether Benjen joining NW while he had just one brother and one infant legitimate nephew living, with no reasonably close collateral lines, was normal and traditional or otherwise.

The Stark tree already demonstrates that Jon's aknowledgment was quite rare and not something to be expected from the Starks in general.

There had been a narrative among some readers that northmen and Starks in particular were more likely to aknowledge their bastards and raise them at Winterfell than the southeners. Well, this family tree shows us that this wasn't the case. Only 2 aknowledged bastards in more than 100 years, despite large numbers of men who lived to adulthood.

Targaryen family tree will show us if they were more likely to go mad when they were inbred, as has been assumed, or not.

Etc., etc.

[RumHam]

There had been a narrative among some readers that northmen and Starks in particular were more likely to aknowledge their bastards and raise them at Winterfell than the southeners. Well, this family tree shows us that this wasn't the case. Only 2 aknowledged bastards in more than 100 years, despite large numbers of men who lived to adulthood.

Well this line from the first book sorta suggests that:

He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see.

But then this is the same lady who thought southern castles didn't have weirwood heart trees even though there's one at Riverrun.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The other explanation is that the Starks just father fewer bastards than the decadent southroners...

And when they do find out about them, they tend to acknowledge them.

[Bael's Bastard]

I wouldn't assume there weren't more bastards based just off this, as it seems mostly concerned with the lineage of the current Starks, not on tangents like how often Starks had bastards or raised them at Winterfell. Jon's situation may be completely unique, but who knows.

[Ella Darklyn]

I think the difference might be, as we see with Robert's kids, bastards are more likely to be formally acknowledged when they have a noble mother. The Fenns are crannogmen but they are still noble, and knocking up a noble girl has way more consequences (pissed off bannerman because his daughter is 'tainted', etc) than knocking up a random serving girl, which is why this Lonny Snow was probably formally acknowledged. Stark honor might have often kept them from sleeping around in places where it would have more consequences (and they likely still did the 'noble' thing in tossing some coin to the commonborn mothers when those got pregnant), and the surprise in Ned's case is that he fully acknowledged a kid who's mother was, as far as the general populace is concerned, probably just some camp follower or generic slut.

[Bael's Bastard]

Regarding the Stark family tree, not that I think it is going to be the case, but with the identities of the wives of Benjen and Rickon not being given in this incomplete version, it seems it is still possible (though not necessarily likely) that one may have married a Targaryen princess.

If the Battle of Long Lake indeed took place in 184 AC, and as Cregan Stark was Lord of Winterfell during the Dance of the Dragons, it seems likely that one or both Benjen and Rickon would have been in an age range to possibly marry a daughter of Jaehaerys (depending, of course, on a number of other circumstances).