Feminism - Now with an extra helping of gender roles

[KiDisaster]

-shorter boys try to bully taller/bigger boys to prove their place in the hierarchy

Just wanted to say, as a short man who was bullied by taller boys my entire childhood, that this is utter bullshit.

That's all.

[mormont]

As for Katniss herself...I'm not sure she's really gender bending. She's feminine in my eyes. She's a normal woman in most aspects. She's a badass and takes care of her family, which may not be a traditional gender role, but I think this was forced on her more than a lifestyle she chose. When her father died, her mother became worthless and it fell on Katniss to take care of them. She took the hand she was dealt and made the most of it.

I don't know. I wonder if this would be described the same way if Katniss was a male character. In that situation, I'm sure we'd speak of it in subtly different language: a male character would be seen as 'stepping up' in these circumstances, a female one has the role 'forced on her'. And that difference is exactly where the social archetypes come in - a male character in that situation would be taking on a role society expects of him anyway, a female one is stepping outside the boundaries so must have been pushed into it. The way we speak of it both reflects and creates the difference.

[Lyanna Stark]

It can also be separated in other ways but my way is best. Everything on the list has a wide variety of possibilities, not two. Possible other categories are "gender role" (not sure how this differs from expression unless you're backward) and "socialization/upbringing" (mostly a dog whistle for transphobes).

I was going to write something about gender role vs gender expression, but I need to catch a train, so shorthand I think of gender role as something "expected" and something that can be used to describe how someone, or a character, fits within the social norms, while gender expression is by its nature more fluid, and doesn't relate as much to how you fit into the social norms, if that makes any sense? I guess because the way I use it, a gender role can be subverted (fit or not fit), but a gender expression is just, well, the way you have chosen to express yourself.

EDIT: Also +1 for mormont. :)

[Prince Alexander]

Just wanted to say, as a short man who was bullied by taller boys my entire childhood, that this is utter bullshit.

That's all.

I said "try to". Taller boys are in my experience more commonly bullies/alphas.

We need to get some sort of Science! award set up in here.

Science is answer to everything? Common observation is not enough to make an argument and state that it's a theory, not a fact?

[Castel]

Science is answer to everything?

Everything? No,of course not! Just most of it.

[Kalbear]

When science tells us more and more that common observation is not only wrong it is hugely misleading and often mistakes cause for effect, yes. Science is so great because of a lot of things, but one of the biggest reasons is that it mitigates a lot of the worst flaws in human thinking.

[Glaurung]

No he isn't, that's Gale. Peeta is initially described as of medium height and stocky (reference). Gale is the more than 6 feet tall dude. The reason Peeta is taller than Katniss is that she's (in the novels) described as short and small due to malnourishment. It's only in the movies that Peeta is shorter.

Obviously nobody is looking for a single cause for anything, but the fact that the statistics are so off, and women frame their feelings of going for taller men not as "I am attracted to taller men" but that they themselves feel clumsy or "unwomanly" if they pick a smaller guy tells us something else: this is not about attraction really, the issue lies in how women think they are perceived, socially. I can testify to this myself, actually. Especially with social pressures to be slim, the worry is not that "this guy is not attractive to me" but "how will I look next to him? like a huge blob?".

There are lots of stuff out there coded as either traditionally feminine or traditionally masculine which has very little or nothing to do with biology and lots and lots to do with culture and social structures. Take skirts or dresses, for instance.

She inverts gender roles, as in her pursuits are not traditionally female and more specifically the dynamics in her relationship with Peeta are often reversed. While she does not choose to take care of her family, to hang on to Peeta is absolutely a choice she actively makes.

I don't remember his height being described, so that does make sense then. I do however remember the book explaining how strong he is. That was what made him a fairly high rated participant in the games. He didn't really have skills he could exploit, but he was seen as very strong and it was impressive enough to earn him a good rating.

I agree with you regarding the "clumsy" & "awkward" situation of how a woman would perceive herself next to a shorter man. That's what I was getting at when I explained my ex and her being so tall made her feel awkward, which was only amplified when next to shorter guys, which led her to go for tall guys. There's definitely a social influence here in addition to biology.

As for her inverting gender roles, I'm not sure how her relationship with Peeta is odd or reversed in any way. Hanging on to Peeta is a choice she actively makes...but I'm not sure how that's an odd choice. Isn't that more along the lines of a choice that any gender would predictably make for love?

Just wanted to say, as a short man who was bullied by taller boys my entire childhood, that this is utter bullshit.

That's all.

As boys, yes taller boys do tend to be bullies, because they're stronger. Many of them end up being short men though. Being a tall guy myself, I've never initiated a fight, but I've had a lot of short guys try to pick fights with me simply for being tall. It's a proving ground. It's rare, but some guys do have "short-man syndrome" and most of them actually will admit it. I've never had a big guy try to start a fight as an adult.

I don't know. I wonder if this would be described the same way if Katniss was a male character. In that situation, I'm sure we'd speak of it in subtly different language: a male character would be seen as 'stepping up' in these circumstances, a female one has the role 'forced on her'. And that difference is exactly where the social archetypes come in - a male character in that situation would be taking on a role society expects of him anyway, a female one is stepping outside the boundaries so must have been pushed into it. The way we speak of it both reflects and creates the difference.

Society may view it different, but I wouldn't. I'd view it as having a situation forced upon a person whether it was a male or female. If Katniss were a guy, I'd still see it as having a bad situation forced upon him that he needed to take care of his family. It happens to men all the time, and I don't view it any differently. Sure, they stepped up, as Katniss did, but the situation is still a forced situation and an unfair situation. I don't see it as a guy just doing his duty. I see it as an unfortunate person having a shitty situation forced upon him/her. Society shouldn't expect either to take on that role.

[Eponine]

Even though there is a height difference on average, it does not explain why women are so extremely conscious about height differences either. There seems to be some mechanic at work that is not explained by statistics.

I'm the same height as you and it's really pretty rare that I meet a man who's shorter than I am. I work in a majority-male office and studied in a majority-male grad program, and I can't think of any men in either place who are shorter than 5'4". I don't think there were any guys shorter than that in my (small) high school class or on my college cross country team either. I feel like if I thought that it was some kind of important feminist thing to do, I'd have to go on an online dating site and purposely filter for short men. Which kind of seems icky, like the guy would be a token.

The only place I've regularly encountered a few men who are shorter than I am is at my gym, and anecdotally, the ones I've talked to have invariably been lower income. I don't know if this has significance, whether it's some sort of class thing. I definitely know that I am conscious about certain class signifiers - being well-read, well-traveled, not watching a lot of TV, being academically inclined.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

I've known some really short guys (under 5'4) who were "alpha" males or whatever. Or course, they were all wealthy.

[Summah]

And this should be obvious, but not all tall women only go for tall men, I have a friend who's over 6', she's married to a man at least 5" shorter (I believe he's shorter than me as well), except for her height they're both average looking, smart (though in different ways), professional, upper middle class, family oriented etc.

Eponine, there is a correlation between height and income: http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.html

And now I'm wondering if I should read the Hunger Games because I have not been able to follow most of this thread.

[sologdin]

dunno if tall persons are more powerful or intelligent, but those of us who are in the third+ sigma are more sensitive lovers than the self-obsessed greasers in the second and shorter SD.

[Lyanna Stark]

As for her inverting gender roles, I'm not sure how her relationship with Peeta is odd or reversed in any way. Hanging on to Peeta is a choice she actively makes...but I'm not sure how that's an odd choice. Isn't that more along the lines of a choice that any gender would predictably make for love?

I don't know if you actually read the article in the first post about how the dynamics in the relationship works? (And it's not much different in the novels from on screen either).

This is an excerpt:

He is physically tough, but markedly less so than she is. He's got a good firm spine, but he lacks her disconnected approach to killing. Over and over, she finds herself screaming "PEETA!", not calling for help but going to help, and then running, because he's gone and done some damn fool thing like gotten himself electrocuted.

Her larger mission — her war against the Capitol — often drifts out of focus behind her smaller, more immediate mission: saving Peeta. She lets others know that if it's down to the two of them, he should be saved because of his goodness. She is unsurprised when she's told she doesn't deserve him.

He encourages her to talk about her feelings. He encourages her to share herself with others. He promises her, falsely but selflessly, that her indifference doesn't hurt him and she owes him nothing. If she ever wants to come to her senses, come down from those fences, he'll be there.

He's better than she is, but softer. He's less knowing than she is. He's less cynical than she is. He's just as tough and as brave as he can possibly be with the skill set he has, and she's responsible for mopping up when that's not enough. To fail to protect him is to betray her, because that may well be the only job she gives you.

To me, he definitely sounds more like the popular spunky female sidekick to our strong, silent male hero type than anything else.

I dunno, maybe in your world, there are lots and lots of heroines who keeps on saving their male partners from Certain Death? I can't think of any, actually. The article writer gives a couple of examples of this and draws paralells to show why the gender roles are inverted with Peeta and Katniss.

And now I'm wondering if I should read the Hunger Games because I have not been able to follow most of this thread.

For years I didn't because I believed a lot of the bad press about the novels. Sure, the last one suffers from pacing issues, I thought, and the first person narrative, present tense is annoying as hell, but I thought it was definitely worth the read. The language is not at all intricate and there's a definite lack of sex scenes, but the other themes are definitely not for the squeemish. Lots of death, grief, traumatised minds and loss all around. Plus the way the characters interact isn't bad. As a long time ASOIAF reader, it's also pretty easy to kind of go beyond the POV structure to see when Katniss misunderstands things, or see stuff she just plan misses. So yes, definitely worth a read.

dunno if tall persons are more powerful or intelligent, but those of us who are in the third+ sigma are more sensitive lovers than the self-obsessed greasers in the second and shorter SD.

Based on phrenology or phallology?

[KiDisaster]

Eponine, there is a correlation between height and income: http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.html

There are correlations between height and a lot of things. Short guys love to whine about how taller people are much more likely to be hired, promoted, generally taken seriously, etc.

I dunno, I think it's more about confidence than actual height. Tall people tend to be more confident. I consider myself pretty confident, I don't think I've ever really felt like I wasn't being taken seriously or discriminated against because of my height in my adult life.

But this is outside the realm of this thread. Sorry folks.

[Castel]

There are correlations between height and a lot of things. Short guys love to whine about how taller people are much more likely to be hired, promoted, generally taken seriously, etc.

I dunno, I think it's more about confidence than actual height. Tall people tend to be more confident. I consider myself pretty confident, I don't think I've ever really felt like I wasn't being taken seriously or discriminated against because of my height in my adult life.

But this is outside the realm of this thread. Sorry folks.

To jump on the derail for three seconds: maybe taller people get hired more-->more confidence-> less confidence for shorter people--> less jobs? Or even just taller people being perceived as being more confident? You can switch around the starting premise but (without looking too deeply into the actual data) the confidence thing is not necessarily an out.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Problem with having a dominant personality, is that the people who hate you will scheme and plot to ruin your life.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

I'm sure

black

latin

women

short guys

will probably have a lesser chance for many reasons

[Lily Valley]

Based on phrenology or phallology?

Altitude. The rariefied air up there increase red blood cell count thereby improving physical performance.

[Weeping Sore]

I'm very conscious of the benefits of being tall; there's just a slight instinctive deference people tend to afford when they are looking up to speak to you. (probably some remnant of feeling childlike looking up at a parent or older sibling) Being tall means that you don't have to try as hard to be noticed/taken seriously, as unfair as that is.

My mother worked in a male-dominated industry but at 5'11" was as tall or taller than most of her peers, and not prone to being intimidated by anyone.

There's probably a Venn diagram of heightism and sexism that will make sense of all this- but the (fact?) that women cope better than men with being short may have something to do with their having less of a (culturally conditioned or innate) urge to dominate.

[Summah]

For years I didn't because I believed a lot of the bad press about the novels. Sure, the last one suffers from pacing issues, I thought, and the first person narrative, present tense is annoying as hell, but I thought it was definitely worth the read. The language is not at all intricate and there's a definite lack of sex scenes, but the other themes are definitely not for the squeemish. Lots of death, grief, traumatised minds and loss all around. Plus the way the characters interact isn't bad. As a long time ASOIAF reader, it's also pretty easy to kind of go beyond the POV structure to see when Katniss misunderstands things, or see stuff she just plan misses. So yes, definitely worth a read.

I don't mind first person narration if I like the narrator and she has an interesting voice, I'm fine with present tense if it's done well. I've avoided it mostly because it's young adult and super popular. I just checked my library's online lending site, they don't have the ebook (they do have audio, but I prefer to read), so it looks like I'd have to go check them out from the library if I want to read it, so no idea when that will happen.

[Shryke]

The Hunger Games love triangle is handled completely differently in that for one, there is just not that much brooding and emo over it. The Sadness and Emo are normally directed at more serious stuff, like deaths of other Players, friends or family. It kinda happens in action, as it were and there's no "fighting" about the girl or anything.

There is a sort of competition over Katniss' affection, but it's not direct competition and more "I hope she picks me" and only really shows up late in the series and only very briefly (in large part because as you say, Katniss gives no shits for this emo relationship stuff)

It's really a further subversion of the general gender roles in these kinds of stories since it's the two boys being kinda fatalistically emo over her rather then the other way around.

I think one of the articles also went in to how it was love by choice, or love by action, which I think is a good description. It wasn't just some hormonal thing, or like most romance novels tend to do with relationships "and they found each other hot" as an explanation for every single relationship ever. Here it takes almost two novels for Katniss to even describe Peeta in terms of good looks, and once he has been hijacked, he comments that she's not very pretty at all. Gale and Finnick you can pick up on being traditionally beautiful, mostly based on how others describe them (as being "camera ready" for instance) but the variation in how Katniss and Peeta describe each other follows their emotional attachment instead.

A fair distance from a lot of common romance tropes which for instance a lot of Urban Fantasy, including Twilight, seems to suffer from.

Despite being for kids, I think it's got a very mature take on relationships and how they take effort and aren't just about "Oh, he's so pretty".