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[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

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:agree:

This was really the last time Dany does anything cool for seemingly forever and yet they accomplished it in the lamest way possible. There was no Jorah or BtB, no room now for Lord Friendzone to be fully fleshed out, not even any fighting shown period. I get that they have a limited budget but even a skirmish would have been better than the assumption that the slaves quickly take out a bunch of the great masters and the city, which apparently has absolutely no army at all, folds immediately. That was pathetic and the Mysha stuff followed by Dany at the Great Pyramid with the Targ flag was more of an epic eye roll for me than a, Wow, that was badass!

Rhetorical question: What happened to all of those archers from the previous episode?

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OMG I HOPE THEY DONT DO IT THIS SOON. I can not begin to imagine the crazy riots that would cause.

Agreed! I'm already freaking out at the mere possibility of it. Let's just hope the show runners stick to subtle blue flowers, for funsies.

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Frankly, I'm not going to trawl through 45 pages of discussion, so what do we think? The Night's King? The Great Other?

Basically;

Everybody thinks the 'Night's King' looks like Darth Maul's cousin.

Great Other wont be a character, since neither will R'hllor.

And by everybody I mean most people.

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So the Ice Henge and altar were real freaking ice! Guess that explains the real(istic) appearance.

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No, I think you have confused the distinction I made between additions and rewrites. I'm reasonable, I rarely criticize Jackson with the Tolkein material, for instance, because I realize there is a lot there that needs to be bridged and clarified and tied together. However, aside from a few mistakes—which I likewise abhor—Jackson and Co. rarley rewrite the source material.

What they add usually surrounds the original plot as either shiny wrapping paper, or exposition (which can often be found in source material like appendices/ other works). Even if I don't always like it, I can see it's usefulness, purpose, or justification.

This show is not follow that same mode of adaptation. They aren't just adding. Again, the Arya/Tywin is a good example of a satisfactory addition to advance/streamline/develop. Arya is where she needs to be according to the general plot of the book, Tywin is on his way to KL and happens to stop by. I get it, and the way they use the encounter to world build and transmit backstory while developing Tywins character is an excellent handling of the situation. The Arya POV plotline still exists, has been edited and added to do, but it exists along its intended path.

Bran/Jon scenes in Episode 404 is not just adding to their plot. It is rewriting their plot. That is the distinction. Two characters with unique POV's of their own have had their plot lines changed because the show writers thought the change would develop interesting conflicts and scenes. That is fanfiction, whatever legal rights are held. It's just fanfiction. It is no longer the source material, an embelishment of the source material, an addition to the source material, or an omission of the source material. It is new material that even contradicts source material (jons knowledge of bran for instance). Fan fiction.

I'm not nitpicking here. Even if the changes don't break the story (and I'm not sayin they absolutley will) it is a dangerous precedent to set. It has never been this blatant in the show before. The Martin quote I posted way back on page 37 or around there is absolutely relevant. Once you open that door, it will be hard to close . . . how can it not be hard to close, you've spun the chain of events down different paths.

This is all unecessary when there is quite literally an overabundance of source material to work with. Much of which fans are clamoring to see.

I disagree for now. We just don't know yet. We have to see what happens next episode. I think everyone is just jumping to conclusions on whats going to happen with jon/bran. Right now it's plot addition. It very well could become a 'plot rewrite' but it's to early to tell. To much over reaction at this point. Now, after episode 5 you could be spot on and the over reaction becomes valid, but let's not jump to these conclusions quite yet.

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Can someone remind me if Thorne was so hatefull of Jon Snow in the books?

In the show it seems like he hates Snow so much he'd rather do things that are not in the best interest of the Wall, just to get at Jon. He doesn't want him (arguably the best swordsman at the Wall, alongside himself and now Locke) to train recruits because he's a steward. And he'd rather see Jon get killed than keeping one of the best fighters alive. Even going to far as to trying to get Jon's raid at Crasters to fail, risking the lives of Snow and anyone who might join him (considering he'd hoped nobody, or only 1 or 2 or so would) and also risking the lives of everyone at the Wall and in the North.

Hell, it seems like he would rather kill Snow than see him succeed, even if Jon's succes is for the best of the Wall. In 4x2 it seemed like genuine mistrust, now it's just blatant hate.

However, one thing that I did notice was that he did allow him to take Locke. He could have just said: "no, he's not ready to take his vows" to screw with Jon Snow.

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Basically;

Everybody thinks the 'Night's King' looks like Darth Maul's cousin.

Great Other wont be a character, since neither will R'hllor.

And by everybody I mean most people.

Warning, about to go off the rails to crackpot central station:

I'm starting to think that the "Great other" is really the "woman" White Walker that seduced the Night's King.

And along that line of thinking: She would have been the equal, but opposite companion/mate of the red religion's "Lord of Light", who represents fire and warmth.

Thus, "A Song of Ice and Fire" is -REALLY- about Her + Lord of Light, rather than necessarily about Dany + Jon (which is probably the popular theory thus far), and their respective forces war against one another. After all, two deities at each other's throats, particularly if they where former mates of some kind, is a much greater story than any small tale about mortals scurrying about for some Iron Chair.

Also, I found the castle + battlements pictured in the end of the show very interesting as well, in conjunction with this theory. If the "Queen of the -real- North" has indeed created fortifications in a land that perfectly represents her own nature, then it's possible the "Lord of Light" has also done the same in a similarly fire themed local... the prime possibility for this is, imo: Old Valaryia/The Doom of Valaryia, the only fire themed place on Planetos that people can't seem to go to. I'm now very curious if there are "Red Walkers" near it, or if the "Lord of Light" is also taking human "brides" as his "queens", much like the WW-Queen does with the Night's King.

Finally, I think there's a distinct possibility that the exclusion of Coldhands from the show, but -not- excluding Benjen early on, might be a hint that Benjen is NOT Coldhands, but possibly IS this New Night's King. The last one was allegedly a Stark too, afterall, and was killed... so him being alive there to Midas touch the baby seemed a bit... strange.

As I said, a whole lot of crackpot going on here, but interesting stuff to think about.

Edited by Epyon

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Actually, there are references about Craster, and how he brings "cold" with him wherever he goes. I'll have to wait until I get home from work to look up the exact quotes.

EDIT: I found one of the quotes in another thread on this board, from A Clash of Kings

Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is."

Plus, in GoT, Old Nan tells Bran that there were wildlings that would lay with the Others to birth half-human children.

I'm with that program: that Craster and probably Val have "other" blood from the Night's King.

Not sure if anyone's brought this up yet - I found the appearance of the Other sort of laughable, but maybe the spikey head is meant to reference the dragons, since they are the opposing and counterbalancing forces in this series? That's a possible explanation for an otherwise poorly-chosen physiognymy.

Re: deviations between the books and the show, and the show spoiling the books, I enjoy the books and I think GRRM has created an amazing world, but I also think he's much less in control of the nuances of the story than his fans suppose. There's a lot of stuff in the books that meanders pointlessly for ages, and he's said that he has a tough time keeping track of the timelines and the details. In short, the books, especially 4 and 5, could have benefited from a strict editor to keep him focused on a tighter storyline. I feel like the show is serving that purpose, shaking out the chaff and getting to the major points that a lot of us have known are coming and have been waiting for. I don't mind that the show is doing this. It's interesting to watch how the narrative is reconstructed. And since GRRM is involved in that process, I don't feel betrayed or spoiled. But I was definitely, for the first time as a watcher of the show, sitting up and thinking, "What the heck is this?!" during the last 15 minutes. I found it an enjoyable experience to be surprised for a change.

Anyway, relatively new here, I've been reading for a while but haven't really posted anything yet. Thanks for the interesting discussions.

Welcome, and the appearance of the NK was weird. He's supposed to be half-human, so I don't get the horns.

This. Time one-thousand.

Storm is one of the best books of the series, with nary a dull spot post red wedding. If anywhere the show doesn't need to add any fabricated story lines, its here. Cold hands would have made bran a million times more interesting. IMHO

The series needs CH, I agree... an essential character to bridge the worlds of human and Other.

Well, a golem. I think so too. His arc is over.

I suspect Benjen is in the lower levels of the crypt at Winterfell, or in a tunnel around the wall, or in an underground system that connects them.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

There's no reason to make one character the same as another. GRRM can create characters faster than he kills them.

CH is not a wight IIRC - no blue eyes, rational, speaks, helps humans.

Golem is a great way to explain it!

Also, I'm a huge believer in a hollow/swiss-cheesed Grrmth. If Benjen isn't back in the crypts, Rickon is.

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No, I think you have confused the distinction I made between additions and rewrites. I'm reasonable, I rarely criticize Jackson with the Tolkein material, for instance, because I realize there is a lot there that needs to be bridged and clarified and tied together. However, aside from a few mistakes—which I likewise abhor—Jackson and Co. rarley rewrite the source material.

What they add usually surrounds the original plot as either shiny wrapping paper, or exposition (which can often be found in source material like appendices/ other works). Even if I don't always like it, I can see it's usefulness, purpose, or justification.

This show is not follow that same mode of adaptation. They aren't just adding. Again, the Arya/Tywin is a good example of a satisfactory addition to advance/streamline/develop. Arya is where she needs to be according to the general plot of the book, Tywin is on his way to KL and happens to stop by. I get it, and the way they use the encounter to world build and transmit backstory while developing Tywins character is an excellent handling of the situation. The Arya POV plotline still exists, has been edited and added to do, but it exists along its intended path.

Bran/Jon scenes in Episode 404 is not just adding to their plot. It is rewriting their plot. That is the distinction. Two characters with unique POV's of their own have had their plot lines changed because the show writers thought the change would develop interesting conflicts and scenes. That is fanfiction, whatever legal rights are held. It's just fanfiction. It is no longer the source material, an embelishment of the source material, an addition to the source material, or an omission of the source material. It is new material that even contradicts source material (jons knowledge of bran for instance). Fan fiction.

I'm not nitpicking here. Even if the changes don't break the story (and I'm not sayin they absolutley will) it is a dangerous precedent to set. It has never been this blatant in the show before. The Martin quote I posted way back on page 37 or around there is absolutely relevant. Once you open that door, it will be hard to close . . . how can it not be hard to close, you've spun the chain of events down different paths.

This is all unecessary when there is quite literally an overabundance of source material to work with. Much of which fans are clamoring to see.

I don't know if you have seen the Hobbit but that is basically all fan-fiction. LotR is really not comparable to ASOIAF as far as adaptations are concerned. The former is the size of ASoS and contains far less plot lines, characters, locations, world building that the show has to cram into an entire season. Not to mention certain characters have far less story to work with than others. Bran has what three chapters after the third book? And many of his chapters in the third book are there to provide exposition to past events. The type of stuff that doesn't work well on television. I see nothing wrong with trying to inject drama into Bran's storyline by having him interact with the Night Watch/Mutineer subplot. That is what good adaptations do. Time will tell whether they execute it well and how everything plays out going forward.

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Frankly, I'm not going to trawl through 45 pages of discussion, so what do we think? The Night's King? The Great Other?

Nights maul and a possible excerpt from wow and/or ados.

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In the show it seems like he hates Snow so much he'd rather do things that are not in the best interest of the Wall, just to get at Jon.

Thorne's hatred of Snow is rather blatant in the books, and I do think he risks promotion or at least favor from Mormont in the way he mistreats Snow during training. Would he go so far as to kill him if given an opportunity to get away with it? I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be shocked by it.

From the book's wiki:

As master-at-arms responsible for training new recruits, Alliser gives Jon Snow the mocking nickname "Lord Snow". His disdain turns into hatred when Jon replies to one of his mockeries, provoking the hilarity of the whole common room of Castle Black.[1] Having absolutely no humor, Alliser takes the mockeries of Tyrion Lannister poorly when Tyrion is invited to the table of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Jeor Mormont, during his visit at the Wall. Alliser is, however, so delighted at Jon Snow's appointment to the stewards that Jon thinks he is behind it.

Alliser never misses an occasion to provoke the young bastard. The evening Jon learns of the imprisonment of Lord Eddard Stark in King's Landing for treason, Alliser's jeers anger Jon, who tries to attack him with a knife, before being stopped and put under arrest. This mutual hostility, and the master-at-arms' old friends who are well-placed at court, lead the Lord Commander to send Alliser to the new king, Joffrey I, with the mission to acquire reinforcements for the Night's Watch.

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It has been revealed in the books what happens to Craster's sons. It's the Sam chapter in ASOS where Mormont is killed. It's the last paragraph in the chapter. I just read it on my reread.

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Warning, about to go off the rails to crackpot central station:

I'm starting to think that the "Great other" is really the "woman" White Walker that seduced the Night's King.

And along that line of thinking: She would have been the equal, but opposite companion/mate of the red religion's "Lord of Light", who represents fire and warmth.

Thus, "A Song of Ice and Fire" is -REALLY- about Her + Lord of Light, rather than necessarily about Dany + Jon (which is probably the popular theory thus far), and their respective forces war against one another. After all, two deities at each other's throats, particularly if they where former mates of some kind, is a much greater story than any small tale about mortals scurrying about for some Iron Chair.

Also, I found the castle + battlements pictured in the end of the show very interesting as well, in conjunction with this theory. If the "Queen of the -real- North" has indeed created fortifications in a land that perfectly represents her own nature, then it's possible the "Lord of Light" has also done the same in a similarly fire themed local... the prime possibility for this is, imo: Old Valaryia/The Doom of Valaryia, the only fire themed place on Planetos that people can't seem to go to. I'm now very curious if there are "Red Walkers" near it, or if the "Lord of Light" is also taking human "brides" as his "queens", much like the WW-Queen does with the Night's King.

Finally, I think there's a distinct possibility that the exclusion of Coldhands from the show, but -not- excluding Benjen early on, might be a hint that Benjen is NOT Coldhands, but possibly IS this New Night's King. The last one was allegedly a Stark too, afterall, and was killed... so him being alive there to Midas touch the baby seemed a bit... strange.

As I said, a whole lot of crackpot going on here, but interesting stuff to think about.

That's actually a pretty interesting take on the whole thing.

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Thought I read the Night's King from thousands of years ago was killed when the KITN and the KBTW took back the Nightfort. If what was written in the (now redacted) synopsis was true, either he was resurrected as an Other or maybe this is supposed to be his offspring/descendant and now "Night's King" is a title rather than a name.



My first thought after I watched was that it was the Great Other, but I tend to agree with what some others have said that the GO is more of a non-corporeal entity like R'hllor and the Darth Maul looking guy was simply King Other or even the ice equivalent of a Red Priest.


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So Craster's incest babies have been a key to WW for how many years now?.


I think we were all wrong, it's not the Stark warg powered kids who will defeat tthe WW, but Tommen and Myrcella!


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Bit of supposition. Could it be that the Other we saw at the end was a female Other, and this is how the Others reproduce? Maybe its females that run the society and the males do all the fighting and bringing of babies.

I am interested with whats going to happen with Locke, he's a good character and i almost want to like him until I remember that he's a pretty evil guy. And I'm assuming the reason he agreed to go to the keep is because he overheard Sam and Jon talking about Bran possibly being there. I can either see him dying during this story arc or taking on a role similar to Marsh and being the betrayer later on.

I liked the scene with littlefinger as well as the following one, and it was a good way to reveal who killed Joffrey, though I feel that bit of exposition should have maybe come a bit later, like around the time of Tyrions trial.

Last, could this thing of the Others be a way of D&D telling GRRM that they're already using material from TWOW, and that if he wants to stay ahead he'll need to hurry up?

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What are people's thoughts on that lingering shot of Pyp not standing, even when Edd did? Does anybody think this will be important later? I thought it was really interesting that he stayed down and they actually showed him looking conflicted about it.


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Could it be that the Other we saw at the end was a female Other, and this is how the Others reproduce?

Nah thats a bloke.

And i dont think its reproduction as much as a specific ceremony of turning children into Other-type creatures. Im not sure. But i do know that was not a lady Other.

What are people's thoughts on that lingering shot of Pyp not standing, even when Edd did? Does anybody think this will be important later? I thought it was really interesting that he stayed down and they actually showed him looking conflicted about it.

I thought it was cuz he was scared shitless about whats out there and was like "dude, no wai."

Edited by Florina Laufeyson

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What are people's thoughts on that lingering shot of Pyp not standing, even when Edd did? Does anybody think this will be important later? I thought it was really interesting that he stayed down and they actually showed him looking conflicted about it.

It could just be that he's a steward and not a ranger, so has other commitments, but the fact it lingered does make you think

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