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Uldra I

[Spoilers] Who's Cruelty is Worse, Ramsay's or Shae's?

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I'm a bit baffled as to how this is even a question

No lie. I have a special loathing for Shae. Shes the sort of person that had i known her in real life, i would secretly wish that she could be erased. Thats because i hate liars and false people. However, Ramsay is Up To Eleven in the Evil-O-Meter. His nastiness is far worse than anything Shae could muster.

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Shae was a disloyal whore. Of course she is worse than a GUY who crucifies people, rapes them and cuts off their manhood and feeds it to the goats? Ya'll gotta separate Dinklage from Tyrion. Tyrion is not this nice. That is why you hate show Shae more than show Ramsay. I actually like show Shae and if DD weren't writing fan fic you wouldn't feel so much sympathy for Tyrion. Seriously.



The hate of Shae has been discussed repeatedly by the Sullied so I will just say- RAMSAY is super evil and tortures people. He is worse.



Ramsay Snow nee Bolton is worse than a prostitute who was intimidated into betraying Sansa and Tyrion.


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Wow, this is really taking Tyrion fanboyism to an absurd level.

You ain't lying. Dang.

Dinklage is TOO good at this role. I am sure GRRM never thought there was an actor who could actually eclipse the character he wrote in the series.

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Well painful as both cruelties are, i would perhaps prefer the figurative emasculation to the literal emasculation.

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The opening post reminds me of that saying "Men are frightened that women will laugh at them and women are frightened that men might murder them."

Honestly people have their hearts broken all the time and they get over it. Generally speaking torturing and castrating someone is considered criminal.

Excellent.

The problem is the show is trying to hit plot points, but changing the characterisation so much that the actions of the characters make little sense.

Also, Ramsay. Murder, rape and sadism being slightly worse than embarrassing a former John.

Exactly. They go on a different journey, and do different things, for different reasons, yet somehow would end up in exactly the same place. Fascinating.

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Excellent.

Exactly. They go on a different journey, and do different things, for different reasons, yet somehow would end up in exactly the same place. Fascinating.

It could be a metaphor about fate, destiny, and predestination. Like Yara's invasion of the Dreadfort; she could not rescue Theon because he is destined to escape on his own. Even though she was literally right there in the room with him and Ramsay was apparently outnumbered (and naked?) she could not rescue Theon or kill Ramsay. She couldn't even move when he was playing with the key and taunting her. You can't fight City Hall.

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Ramsay.



Unless, his character is a product of mental illness, genetics, abuse or something like that. Can you really say the hyena is cruel for eating her prey alive? No, it's an animal.



Shae on the other hand, even though her life was hard, isn't insane. She can leave her past behind her, it wasn't responsible for what she did. She just wanted to hurt him and take revenge, without even thinking about whether he was just trying to protect her, even after all the times he said so before.



So Shae is pure evil, no sickness outside of her control involved. Like I think Tywin is more cruel than Joffrey was, because he wasn't crazy as the product of incest, nor a spoiled teen boy that suddenly gained too much power.



So it depends on what drives them, and what drove them there aswell.


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It could be a metaphor about fate, destiny, and predestination. Like Yara's invasion of the Dreadfort; she could not rescue Theon because he is destined to escape on his own. Even though she was literally right there in the room with him and Ramsay was apparently outnumbered (and naked?) she could not rescue Theon or kill Ramsay. She couldn't even move when he was playing with the key and taunting her. You can't fight City Hall.

I meant, if the characters are different, how can they end up in the same place. I was dissing the Shae change, they dispensed with all of that and slipped her right into book Shae's story.

But I like what you said, too. In that case, they are the same characters, but something is off, and they know it. That's cool. Theon was destined to escape on his own.

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While I agree that Ramsay is worse, did everyone really get the feeling that Shae was completely coerced? She seemed nervous, sure, but I think it was a little bit of conscious sneaking in due to her line when speaking directly to Tyrion. The "I'm just a whore, remember," line (or something close to that) seemed like she was throwing Tyrion's perceived betrayal of her back in his face. She refused to understand that Tyrion wanted to send her away to protect her, and the testimony was, at least in part, revenge for that. She may have been threatened or influenced by Cersei or Tywin to some degree, but her final words showed her anger and petulance clearly.


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Ramsay.

Shae is a whore and does what she is paid to do. She did that with the guy before Tyrion, with Tyrion...and the guy after Tyrion.

And deep down, Tyrion knew it. Self-delusion falls on the self. I suppose it's a problem with the show not being able to give the viewers Tyrion's inner monologue, particularly where he castigates himself for being so stupid by not accepting that she's a whore who's just playing his game.

Oh, silly question's answer: Ramsey.

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Shae had a reason to do what she did. Her hurt feelings or somebody's influence. And it's not that strange to have a hurt woman acting like that.

Ramsay's just a sick bad person.

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Can anyone be crueler than Ramsay? Shae doesn't even come close, even though I agree showShae is undoubtedly cruel.


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Superexcited to see tywin hump shae n tyrion watching secretly n getting pissed.

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Obviously Ramsay is more evil (if Shae is even "evil" at all), so no contest for all the reasons stated.



But I also think just dismissing Shae's actions as embarrassing a john or even breaking his heart leave a rather key point out. The man is on trial for his life in front of the whole realm, and she knowingly bears false witness against him (and against Sansa) in the most damning way possible, in both the series and the books.



Of course she was coerced. Thus - not evil exactly (and again, comparing her to Ramsay is ridiculous). But it's definitely not something to admire, or to dismiss as insignificant and merely a trifling affront to oversensitive narcissistic teen male readers. Not every character would have done what she did at the trial.



I hate the whitewashing of Tyrion in the TV series. But I suspect that, for all his other flaws and darkness shown in the books, Tyrion would not have borne false witness against Shae in the same way had the roles been reversed, even to save his own skin. It's true, even prior to his moral descent at the end of aSoS, Tyrion could be selfish and cruel, but there were certain situations in which he was self-sacrificing, especially where his sense of loyalty was concerned (e.g. leading sortie at Blackwater). Anyway, obviously that role reversal is a hypothetical, just my hunch really that I don't think Tyrion would have done the same. But, regardless, taking the farcical Ramsay comparison out of it, I just want to reiterate that I don't think Shae's betrayal should be minimized. She deserves empathy and a better fate than what befalls her, but not exoneration.


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Ramsay and its not close. Shae never did anything remotely as bad as what Ramsay probably does every morning before breakfast. Shae just seems bad at the present because of expectations and who she perpetrated those acts against. Shae probably was partially coerced into those actions as well, although I do think she took some pleasure in those actions and went above and beyond what would have been necessary.



I'll admit to never really liking her much on the show though, even at first when they were initially attempting to shove her down the audience's throat by making her into one of the modern surrogates/badass/fun/hot ciphers. This question though I think is just gonna go in some dark/misogynistic directions.


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Eh...one cut off a dudes dick after flaying off a number of fingers...I don't think this is a contest.


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I don't understand how Tyrion is a part of this convo? Do you guys think the idiots that think Shae is worse than Ramsay are saying that because they just love Tyrion so much?



I love Tyrion a lot, but there's no freaking way I would ever be so delusional to think Shae is worse than Ramsay. There is a such thing as liking Tyrion and still being sympathetic to Shae.



I think those that think Shae is worse have deep seeded issues with women and are projecting.


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Wow, this is really taking Tyrion fanboyism to an absurd level.

^^this!

Ramsay is the most cruel character on the show even Jofferey couldn't compare! Jofferey would have killed Theon a long time ago probably without mutilating him but Ramsay keeps him as a pet!

Ramsay even asked Reek to pretend he's Theon Greyjoy right after he made him take a bath while he stared at his (missing) junk with a delighted smile, how messed up is that?

Seriously what did Shae ever did in your book that compares to that?

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