Moments of Foreshadowing 9

[IceFire125]

ok. i was going off of the Red=Targ, Black=Blackfyre

I'm of the opinion that the 'red' when it comes to sigil is the symbol of the true Targaryen line and/or those in connection of supporting them.

However, when it comes to the color 'black' (aside from tPatQ/D&E novellas), I believe it's all been pointing to the connection of Jon and Rhaegar, from the very beginning.

Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart... - AGOT Eddard X

The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. - AFFC Jaime I

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. - ADWD Jon XII

Once a man had said the words his (Jon's) blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart. - ADWD Jon VI

In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall. But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this was what the Night’s Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon. - AGOT Sansa III

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm of the opinion that the 'red' when it comes to sigil is the symbol of the true Targaryen line and/or those in connection of supporting them.

However, when it comes to the color 'black' (aside from tPatQ/D&E novellas), I believe it's all been pointing to the connection of Jon and Rhaegar, from the very beginning.

I think the color symbolism varies based on the context.

[Fire Eater]

“The fool figured a one-eyed man would be easier to cheat. Timett pinned his wrist to the table with a dagger and ripped out his throat barehanded. He has this trick where he stiffens his fingers—”

A fool tries to cheat while gambling with Timett, who had sacrificed one of his eyes as a Rite of Passage. I take the “hatching of a dragon” as a Rite of Passage, which is true at least in Egg’s “hatching” at Whitewalls. I think Dany’s “hatching” in the Dothraki Sea was also a Rite of Passage.

Anyway, Timett, who was reborn as a man after suffering a traumatic experience in his Rite of Passage, ripped the throat of the fool barehanded, using his trick where he stiffens his fingers.

Jon suffered a traumatic experience (stabbing) from which he will wake up as a hatched dragon and complete his Rite of Passage, which also reminds us the advice of Aemon to Egg and Jon alike (kill the boy and let he man born).

Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy.

Following Ramsay’s letter, Jon’s fingers grew stiff. I think the same thing will happen when Jon fights Ramsay at the battle. Maybe he will drop his sword but since he will be a man grown (a dragon hatched) just like Timett, he will rip his throat barehanded with his stiff fingers.

Robert would . . . ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the bastard with his right

The left is good. All is reversed, it will make your enemies more awkward.

Jon's stiff fingers are on his right hand, and he has been learning to wield a sword in his left hand since he burned his right. He could slay Roose Bolton with Longclaw in his left hand, given as Syrio said, it would make it more awkward for Roose to fight a man wielding a sword with his left hand.

Victarion took him around the throat, and lifted him bodily into the air. Slamming his back against the mast, he squeezed till the Yunkishmen's face turned as black as the fingers digging into his flesh.

Victarion also killed a man by choking him with his right hand, which had been burned. Jon wears black gloves over his burned right hand, and he may kill Ramsay similarly as you said with his fingers digging into the flesh of his throat.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Where's the exact quote(s) of Jon having had to relearn to fight with his left hand (I'm assuming you mean it's his main hand now)?

[J. Stargaryen]

As exciting as a three-way "dance" might be on HBO ;) I think the dance we'll read about will just involve Aegon (green) and Daenerys (black). Jon may not yet realize his true identity or he might be a little to occupied saving the realm from grumpkins and snarks...

Arya II, Dance

There's no guarantee, of course. It's just speculation based on possible foreshadowing. I wouldn't be surprised if Jon became involved in the conflict between Dany and fAegon, though. Then again, who knows, maybe the Patchface 'prophecy' I quoted is actually a reference to the Wot5K; i.e., Stannis, Lannister-Baratheons, the North.

I'm of the opinion that the 'red' when it comes to sigil is the symbol of the true Targaryen line and/or those in connection of supporting them.

However, when it comes to the color 'black' (aside from tPatQ/D&E novellas), I believe it's all been pointing to the connection of Jon and Rhaegar, from the very beginning.

There is a good deal of supporting evidence for this, in addition to what you already posted.

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.

- AGoT, Eddard I

Ned thinks this while he's in the crypts beneath Winterfell, with Robert. Eventually they come to Lyanna's statue. In other words, R+L=J hints.

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

The preceding part is followed by the moment when all the smiles died, which I believe symbolizes Jon's conception. And that is followed shortly by a Promise me, Ned. So, some pretty strong allusions to Jon around this part, which certainly supports your assertion.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate.

- AFfC, Jaime I

Notice that when Rhaegar's black armor is mentioned, so are the rubies. There once was a Plantagenet prince named Edward of Woodstock, who is better known these days as The Black Prince, with one explanation attributing the sobriquet to his black armor. And, if you look at the English crown, you'll notice a big red gem on the front; images. Technically it is a spinel, which is a fairly modern distinction. But, it is named the Black Prince's Ruby.

A couple of brief historical notes. The succession battles that led to the WotR can be traced back to the untimely death of the Black Prince. Just like Rhaegar, Eddward of Woodstock was a crown prince who predeceased his father, and left an infant son as heir. That infant son succeeded Edward III, the Black Prince's father, to become Richard II. Finally, the Yorks and Lancasters trace their claims back to younger brothers of Edward of Woodstock.

I think the color symbolism varies based on the context.

Completely agree.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Mother of dragons.....Child of three..

what if child of three means third child similar to when four and fifty means fifty four in asiof

and as i believe in danny ,tyrion and jon as riders it gives another similarity between them that they all were third child

[Ghost's Shadow]

How can you shoot the notion of Tyrion, Dragonrider out of this world?

If anyone could help me with that, I'd be terribly grateful.

[jon rhaegar stark]

How can you shoot the notion of Tyrion, Dragonrider out of this world?

If anyone could help me with that, I'd be terribly grateful.

i didnt believe tyrion is a secret targ so he is a dragon rider theory....i felt it when reading GOT as i felt when reading ned chapters that jon's mother is lyanna .

it was through tyrion chapter we first know about dragons .judt read TYRION II chapter in GOT you will understand what iam trying to say ...he does find them intresting and knows about them other known characters ...

we can tell him he yearns to look down on others since he is a dwarf for all his life everyone has looked down upon him

Dragons,” Tyrion told him.

“What good is that? There are no more dragons,” the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

“So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination

Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons. When he had first come to King’s Landing for his sister’s wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen’s throne room. King Robert had replaced them with banners and tapestries, but Tyrion had persisted until he found the skulls in the dank cellar where they had been stored.

He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening. He had not thought to find them beautiful. Yet they were. As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer in the light of his torch. They liked the fire, he sensed. He’d thrust the torch into the mouth of one of the larger skulls and made the shadows leap and dance on the wall behind him. The teeth were long, curving knives of black diamond. The flame of the torch was nothing to them; they had bathed in the heat of far greater fires. When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast’s empty eye sockets had watched him go.

. he is the one person who doesnt wants dragons in order to get the kingdom or power or for anything ...yes he says he watch his father burn and cersei too but we know they weren't kind to them..so he can have some hate towards them ..

add to that with sayings like even a short man can cast long shadow and moqorro saying about dragons everywhere and him standing between them all

i personally think GRRM lost his way in the last 2 books by intending to give more insights on other parts of westeros he sacrificed his main pov characters mainly tyrion and danny in DWD ..everyone is blaming how bore their chapters are but dont you think its because GRRM wanted to sync other plots with them so he delayed their plots and eventually making them boring

and on another thing if there happens a DANCE2.0 tyrion will be in centre .he already was the reason it may happen bcoz he sent aegon to westeros ...we will see him telling about this to danny when he meets her and inform all of the doubts he has about aegon and plans of varys and illyrio

[Lost Melnibonean]

How can you shoot the notion of Tyrion, Dragonrider out of this world?

If anyone could help me with that, I'd be terribly grateful.

I resisted this idea for a long time. But since TP&TQ and Tyrion chapters from Winds I'm pretty sure Tyrion will ride Viserion or at least help Brown Ben ride him. I suspect Ben will ride first and then Tyrion.

[jon rhaegar stark]

i dont know if we can refer to the foreshadowings from the show and also in books ..

but i think i may have two foreshadowing from there but already someone will have mentioned it .if so forgive me for mentioning it ..

1.during first season after bran fell and having those dreams and when the other people in his family wondering whether he will woke up or not from his sickbed ..he did wake up from his sickbed after the sacrifice of sansa's wolf Lady..even in books after the chapter where lady is killed we get bran chapters where he wakes up

so when jon is in his sickbed he will have similar dreams like bran but in dreams bran will appear to him and show him some details about his parents ..but he will stay in his sickbed with having visions and warging into ghost for time to time until theon his sacrificed to the old gods ..

i believe this bcoz i dont think he is dead but mortally injured and fighting for his life ..dont anyone think that apart from three who tries to stab him jon has many followers and friends and they would have stopped those who betrayed him ...i mean jon has become a leader of sought for wildlings and friends to giant wunwun who is very near to him during that moment wouldnt they tried to stop and save him

if we did have another chapter we would have known wat happened but we have to wait for atleast a year i guess

2.soundtrack of GOT

if the main title song is the song of ice and fire then it is only played for danny and last episode on the watchers of the wall when jon starts fighting..so is that a foreshadow or what

[Ghost's Shadow]

I resisted this idea for a long time. But since TP&TQ and Tyrion chapters from Winds I'm pretty sure Tyrion will ride Viserion or at least help Brown Ben ride him. I suspect Ben will ride first and then Tyrion.

There is that bus again. :)

Dany's dragons haven't had any special companions yet in the books, she didn't give them to someone, e.g. a Ser Jorah, Barristan, Victarion, BBP, etc. to grow closer to when they were little, but the minute one is ridable, the other two seem to have a line-up of candidates ready, so many that by the time they reach Westeros they've had 10 each!

The dragons are free, flying around. Quentyn's kind of approach might not work again. Dragons choose who they want them to ride to a great degree as well, because they'll sure toast the people they don't like! I think the only way either Viserion or Rhaegal will have a rider from Meereen is should that horn work, and I wouldn't count on that either.

(Please understand that I'm not saying this only because of your post, but Who Will Ride the Dragons is a topic that's been exhausted to death already, and by the time such a thread is finished, even Sansa and Sweetrobin will be dragon riders, never mind that Sweetrobin is scared to death of heights and would pee himself when seeing a dragon, imo. Hence the 'shall I get the bus' comment. :lol: It's to collect every potential dragon rider in.)

jRs, remember this:

“It was for this.”

“A cloak?”

“The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch,” said the King-beyond-the-Wall. “One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadowcat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?” He chuckled. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.” He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. “But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears... and most of all, no red. The men of the Night’s Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said.”

I don't know how injured he is (I hope he's not dead), and so if he'll need a sacrifice to be alive once more, but I like how this quote could match with Jon as well. Mance was bleeding badly and was dying, but the wildling healer sewed him back up. After that he was given back his black cloak but with red in it, which is the Targaryen colour.

If Jon is visited by Bran, perhaps Bran'll be able to get Jon to finish his crypt dream, share what ghost!Ned said to him about Jon, and then when Jon wakes up he'll know what is cloak/colours truly are.

I don't know what to think of a sacrifice yet. I'm not a big Theon fan so I wouldn't mind, but I don't at this point necessarily think that Lady's death woke up Bran. We've already seen Bran successfully shoving Jon into Ghost, so why wouldn't Bloodraven have woken up Bran that way, or why can't Bran do it again with Jon without a sacrifice. I don't know. We'll see, as with everything else. ;)

[tf13]

Robert would . . . ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the bastard with his right

The left is good. All is reversed, it will make your enemies more awkward.

Jon's stiff fingers are on his right hand, and he has been learning to wield a sword in his left hand since he burned his right. He could slay Roose Bolton with Longclaw in his left hand, given as Syrio said, it would make it more awkward for Roose to fight a man wielding a sword with his left hand.

Victarion took him around the throat, and lifted him bodily into the air. Slamming his back against the mast, he squeezed till the Yunkishmen's face turned as black as the fingers digging into his flesh.

Victarion also killed a man by choking him with his right hand, which had been burned. Jon wears black gloves over his burned right hand, and he may kill Ramsay similarly as you said with his fingers digging into his the flesh of his throat.

I like to think that Jon is going to have one of his blackout rage sessions when it comes to the Boltons.

[Lost Melnibonean]

There is that bus again. :)

Dany's dragons haven't had any special companions yet in the books, she didn't give them to someone, e.g. a Ser Jorah, Barristan, Victarion, BBP, etc. to grow closer to when they were little, but the minute one is ridable, the other two seem to have a line-up of candidates ready, so many that by the time they reach Westeros they've had 10 each!

The dragons are free, flying around. Quentyn's kind of approach might not work again. Dragons choose who they want them to ride to a great degree as well, because they'll sure toast the people they don't like! I think the only way either Viserion or Rhaegal will have a rider from Meereen is should that horn work, and I wouldn't count on that either.

(Please understand that I'm not saying this only because of your post, but Who Will Ride the Dragons is a topic that's been exhausted to death already, and by the time such a thread is finished, even Sansa and Sweetrobin will be dragon riders, never mind that Sweetrobin is scared to death of heights and would pee himself when seeing a dragon, imo. Hence the 'shall I get the bus' comment. :lol: It's to collect every potential dragon rider in.)

jRs, remember this:

I don't know how injured he is (I hope he's not dead), and so if he'll need a sacrifice to be alive once more, but I like how this quote could match with Jon as well. Mance was bleeding badly and was dying, but the wildling healer sewed him back up. After that he was given back his black cloak but with red in it, which is the Targaryen colour.

If Jon is visited by Bran, perhaps Bran'll be able to get Jon to finish his crypt dream, share what ghost!Ned said to him about Jon, and then when Jon wakes up he'll know what is cloak/colours truly are.

I don't know what to think of a sacrifice yet. I'm not a big Theon fan so I wouldn't mind, but I don't at this point necessarily think that Lady's death woke up Bran. We've already seen Bran successfully shoving Jon into Ghost, so why wouldn't Bloodraven have woken up Bran that way, or why can't Bran do it again with Jon without a sacrifice. I don't know. We'll see, as with everything else. ;)

No need for a bus. A minivan will do. I don't expect to read about more than two per dragon if that many. Jon might ride Drogon if Daenerys dies. I expect Tyrion to help Brown Ben ride Viserion after the white one gets hurt during the second battle for Meereen and then take him for himself when Brown Ben and/or Tyrion betray Daenerys for gold. I think Victarion might get that horn to work on Rhaegal but I believe Aegon is destined to tide the green one. No more possibly less. If others want to rent a bus, I don't mind. :)

[jon rhaegar stark]

There is that bus again. :)

Dany's dragons haven't had any special companions yet in the books, she didn't give them to someone, e.g. a Ser Jorah, Barristan, Victarion, BBP, etc. to grow closer to when they were little, but the minute one is ridable, the other two seem to have a line-up of candidates ready, so many that by the time they reach Westeros they've had 10 each!

The dragons are free, flying around. Quentyn's kind of approach might not work again. Dragons choose who they want them to ride to a great degree as well, because they'll sure toast the people they don't like! I think the only way either Viserion or Rhaegal will have a rider from Meereen is should that horn work, and I wouldn't count on that either.

(Please understand that I'm not saying this only because of your post, but Who Will Ride the Dragons is a topic that's been exhausted to death already, and by the time such a thread is finished, even Sansa and Sweetrobin will be dragon riders, never mind that Sweetrobin is scared to death of heights and would pee himself when seeing a dragon, imo. Hence the 'shall I get the bus' comment. :lol: It's to collect every potential dragon rider in.)

jRs, remember this:

I don't know how injured he is (I hope he's not dead), and so if he'll need a sacrifice to be alive once more, but I like how this quote could match with Jon as well. Mance was bleeding badly and was dying, but the wildling healer sewed him back up. After that he was given back his black cloak but with red in it, which is the Targaryen colour.

If Jon is visited by Bran, perhaps Bran'll be able to get Jon to finish his crypt dream, share what ghost!Ned said to him about Jon, and then when Jon wakes up he'll know what is cloak/colours truly are.

I don't know what to think of a sacrifice yet. I'm not a big Theon fan so I wouldn't mind, but I don't at this point necessarily think that Lady's death woke up Bran. We've already seen Bran successfully shoving Jon into Ghost, so why wouldn't Bloodraven have woken up Bran that way, or why can't Bran do it again with Jon without a sacrifice. I don't know. We'll see, as with everything else. ;)

i also dont want it to be a blood sacrifice and i really feel sad for theon to die but after everything he has suffered it seems mercy

the sacfrice i mentioned is bcoz of what mirri maz dur tells danny only a life can save a life and bran's last vision where someone is sacrificed ..

i too hope its only bcoz of bloodraven bran got cured but somehow after seeing how immediately he woke up after lady's death makes me doubt

wat abt my GOT soundtrack do u believe it foreshadows that these two persons are the ones that was promised

[Mithras]

“That horn you heard I found amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria, where no man has dared to walk but me.”

“So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we’re seeing, reflected on the clouds?”

“Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god’s own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men.”

R’hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal men.

Euron’s words are probably BS but there might be a hint for the readers there. Mel is no man. It is possible that she walked the smoking ruins of Valyria, searching for clues to lead her to the truth of the AAR. Surely, being an undead helped her to survive the poisonous smokes and the fires. Maybe there she became a thrall of an evil being that put that ruby necklace around her neck to dominate her and was sent to Stannis.

[Uldra I]

“That horn you heard I found amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria, where no man has dared to walk but me.”

“So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we’re seeing, reflected on the clouds?”

“Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god’s own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men.”

R’hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal men.

Euron’s words are probably BS but there might be a hint for the readers there. Mel is no man. It is possible that she walked the smoking ruins of Valyria, searching for clues to lead her to the truth of the AAR. Surely, being an undead helped her to survive the poisonous smokes and the fires. Maybe there she became a thrall of an evil being that put that ruby necklace around her neck to dominate her and was sent to Stannis.

Ahh, is this really the quote that proves, finally, Mel is undead? :D Would you mind telling where it is in the books? Really suspect Euron is undead as well, just not sure yet. That first line you quoted is awfully tempting to take as proof. Also, if he is 'no man', then what is he now, or could he be implying that the Valyrians were not men?

There is this from SSM July 28, 2012 in Barcelona:

Why did Melisandre seek out Stannis? Did she see him in her flames and decided to seek him out on her own, or is she on a mission on behalf of the red priests? It doesn't seem at any point as if the latter is the case, when you compare to Moqorro who has been sent out by the priesthood.

You're right. Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own, and has her own agenda.

[IceFire125]

“That horn you heard I found amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria, where no man has dared to walk but me.”

“So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we’re seeing, reflected on the clouds?”

“Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god’s own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men.”

R’hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal men.

Euron’s words are probably BS but there might be a hint for the readers there. Mel is no man. It is possible that she walked the smoking ruins of Valyria, searching for clues to lead her to the truth of the AAR. Surely, being an undead helped her to survive the poisonous smokes and the fires. Maybe there she became a thrall of an evil being that put that ruby necklace around her neck to dominate her and was sent to Stannis.

I've always found Mel's full name quite interesting...

Melanie or Melony (from 'Melony, lot seven'): "blackness" and "dark"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanie

Sandra or Melisandre (-Alexandra, -Cassandra): "protector of man" or "defender of man"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_(given_name)

[Lost Melnibonean]

She dismounted beside a gaming pit where a basilisk was tearing a big red dog to pieces amidst a shouting ring of sailors.

Daenerys V, Clash

I thought I'd seen this one before, but my search didn't find it. This foreshadows Tyrion's trial in King's Landing. A fantastic reptilian beast, the basilisk was the king of serpents.

[Uldra I]

Daenerys V, Clash

I thought I'd seen this one before, but my search didn't find it. This foreshadows Tyrion's trial in King's Landing. A fantastic reptilian beast, the basilisk was the king of serpents.

nice one :thumbsup: got the Gregor = big red dog, and Oberyn = basilisk, what do you suppose the ring of sailors are about?

[Gnivil]

I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last.

Euron Greyjoy (can't remember which chapter, in Feast)

Bring on your storm, my lord-and recall, if you do, the name of this castle

Cortney Penrose in Clash of Kings

Daenerys is often called 'Stormborn'.

Euron will manage to ally with Daenerys, possibly marry her, but they will be finally stopped at Storm's End.