Boggsy Cyvasse Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 That's already been established in the prior 2 hours of the film, however. The dialog is all the reason more for why it should have been stretched out rather than rushed. I'm not saying it needs the leisurely pacing and cutting of the Rob Roy fight. But it's less than half the length and has three times as many cuts per second -- that's insanity. Something more like the Hector-Achilles fight -- itself about a minute longer, with a number of crowd reaction shots, but with half as many total cuts -- would have been much more appropriate.To some degree I think it's all down to two major choreography errors:Wushu acrobatics necessitating stunt doubling. Besides its particular pacing, the real beauty of the Rob Roy scene is that almost all -- perhaps all -- the scenes are the actors themselves; this is all the more remarkable because Archibald Cunningham looks like a "murder monkey", and that's all Tim Roth, who had no stage fighting experience at all. That's a testament to the vision of William Hobbs, who tailored the scene to get the maximum effect out of the actors, and to director Michael Caton-Jones in judging that the more they can sell Roth as a dangerous swordsman when compared to the tall, strapping Liam Neeson, the better. There's too many crane shots to hide the fact that we're looking at the double, but you can tell really -- he's leaner than Pascal is.The one-handed sword swings from Gregor sap a lot of the tension out of his attacks. They're not credibly dangerous, and it's worth considering that almost every "dangerous" blow he does in the fight is just his using his strength to throw or kick Oberyn around. The weapon's almost a non-factor because the insistence on sticking to one-handed swings was just wrong. And the thing is, they even acknowledge that the weapon -- a lighter-than-reality prop weapon! -- is too large to be effectively swung around by the world's third strongest man. So why do it? It doesn't even make particular sense since I'm certain that if Gregor Clegane had to fight without a shield, he'd use that sword with both hands. A couple of times to emphasize how strong he is, fine, but it's almost all the time, and every time he does it there's no real feeling of threat to Oberyn.Tailor the scene to the actors, and the cutting wouldn't have to be so insanely fast. Some of that cutting, I assure you, was just to "speed up" the action by cutting out some of the ponderousness of Björnsson's blows. That's not his fault, that's the fault of the choreographer, the director, and the producers.I remember commenting about this when they first had the railers coming out for the season. I cited Gregor's "Spaghetti Arm Swings" and I'm glad that you now bring that back up, but it's such a cinema fight scene thing, blows that would literally have no real impact in real life being portrayed as crippling attacks when they connect. Some of his movements really did rob him of the ferocity you would expect, but I also think that it was all rectified by the money shot, for most. Crush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggsy Cyvasse Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 By the way, though. For the record- I really did love the fight for the most part. Despite all I've said, but like always, I analyze it to death. I'll have to watch it again, but I can't hear that scream again right now. So brutal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I just feel that the whole ''headsquashing, poking eyes out'' thing at the end was so over the top, jeez. I don't know, the duel was fine but that just annoyed me for some reason. Keep in mind that in the books Gregor cuts off Vargo Hoat's limbs and feeds them to him, one by one. Over the top killings are what the MOuntain does. I also find it ridiculous that people actually nitpick about Oberyn screaming, I don't care how badass you are if somebody is caving in your skull while gouging in your eyes, you WILL scream. Else you simply have a physiological disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollowcrown Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 My only nitpick about the duel was Tyrion's reaction - he should've thrown up like he does in the book 1. For Oberyn's horrible death2. For the fact he's now going to die. That's his last hope gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 but I also think that it was all rectified by the money shot, for most. Crush. You may well be right. As I cite in my review, kind of like in The Rains of Castamere, the show's taken something that could be filled with atmosphere and mounting tension and instead has focused on the big shocking turn or twist. It seemed to work well for many, but for my part I've always been a viewer (and reader) who's more about the journey than the end destination. ETA: And since we're on another page -- or at least I am -- I added some actual numbers to this post to give some comparisons regarding fight editing. Should probably go and link the relevant videos as well, I suppose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 The fight was absolutely fantastic, one of the most intense thing's i have seen for years. Visual effects in this scene were absolutely amazing. I haven't read the books, but i believe that this was almost identical to what happened in the books? Although tyrion was supposed to throw up after the fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggsy Cyvasse Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Keep in mind that in the books Gregor cuts off Vargo Hoat's limbs and feeds them to him, one by one. Over the top killings are what the MOuntain does. I also find it ridiculous that people actually nitpick about Oberyn screaming, I don't care how badass you are if somebody is caving in your skull while gouging in your eyes, you WILL scream. Else you simply have a physiological disorder.Again, I'm not saying that he shouldn't have screamed while dying the way he did in the show, anyone would have, no matter how "tough". I'm just saying I preferred his death in the books because it didn't even make that a discussion. I don't think Oberyn died like a wimp, even with how it played out in the show. I just knew the "like a bitch" comment would be made as soon as I saw it happen, and it was. I just feel the need to clarify that because I keep seeing that defense posted right after I bring it up. You may well be right. As I cite in my review, kind of like in The Rains of Castamere, the show's taken something that could be filled with atmosphere and mounting tension and instead has focused on the big shocking turn or twist. It seemed to work well for many, but for my part I've always been a viewer (and reader) who's more about the journey than the end destination.ETA: And since we're on another page -- or at least I am -- I added some actual numbers to this post to give some comparisons regarding fight editing. Should probably go and link the relevant videos as well, I suppose...I agree with you completely. And that is an incredibly in-depth analysis, I commend you for putting in the time. Certainly the Wushu necessitated that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I'd say that my expectations were too high. If not for the end, it would have looked like sparring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Can I both like and dislike it? I like that option... and poor Ellaria... I just don't even know what to say about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 Given the huge hyping this episode got -- from producers, from actors, from HBO, from the media -- and that the fight lends its title to the episode, I don't think your expectations were "too high". They set a very high bar for what they were going to provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade of House Wilson Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I do think we'll see more about the poison next week. I can only imagine that's why they had Sandor mention that poison is a woman's weapon and then Arya's scoffing reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 Next week is entirely focused on the Wall. Given that we had Qyburn around for a couple of episodes, I do suspect they're going to keep Gregor around, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brienne the Wench Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Regardless of what happened at the end of the fight, can we just take a second to really appreciate the fact that this thin little man single-handedly took down THE MOUNTAIN?! I mean, everyone thought it was practically impossible to beat the guy! But the Red Viper of Dorne seemed to manage just fine... if he had made that final stroke! I understand what he was trying to do, but that didn't stop me from wanting to yell at the screen: "FINISH HIM! FINISH HIIIIIM!!!!" Even knowing what was going to happen, I was still frozen with shock and pain! Oh, the horror. I thought it played out really well! I was afraid they would make a lot of changes, but I really thought it all turned out the way it was supposed to... RIP Prince Oberyn :-( Paving the way for some Sand Snake rage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I thought the duel was actually pretty fantastic. Brutal. Disgusting. and so glad they kept the book dialogue.But that beetle speech was bloody infuriating: the Dornish breakfast would've been a good opportunity to set up Arianne, the Sandsnakes etc for next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 I'm quite baffled by the failure to have the Oberyn and Tyrion scene, I admit, especially given the decision to take the story into Dorne. As it is, they could have had it and still had everything else -- even that bloody beetle scene -- because it's another quite short episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Maybe if the media didn't hype it so much it might have been appreciated more, saying it's going to be the best fight scene was completely wrong. They set expectations that proved impossible to live up to, Although i must say i was very impressed :p Oberyn was one of my favorite characters, i'm just scared after the 7 series he wont be remembered as the great character he was :c That picture of Lena Headey with her fingers in Pedro Pascal's eyes proved to be a huge spoiler in the end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggsy Cyvasse Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 R.I.P Oberyn Martell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-A-C Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Regardless of how you think the scene played out, can we all (or as close to a majority as possible) agree that an episode entitled The Mountain and The Viper that contains roughly about 6.30 minutes of screen time out of 51 minutes that is actually dedicated to the duel by both men (Viper/Mountain) is largely pathetic? In fact the time for the two of them is alot less than that, that is just from the moment Tyrion is led out after the beetle speech till the credits. Prior to that, at no point did we go to Kings Landing, get any discussions about what all the other characters involved are thinking, Tywin, Cersie, even bystanders like the Martells, none of them. The choices for which other stories were included in this episode were actually pathetic when you think about it. Sam blubbering, Gilly talking trash to a whore then a crappy raid, the banishing of Jorah, Moat Carlin's Fall, The Hound and Arya (gotta have them every chance don't we?) Sansa and Littlefinger, that ridiculous Grey Worm love story thing, a Tyrion talky emotional scene (gotta have those cuz fan's love Tyrion!) .... basically 45 minutes of stories that either shouldn't be told or should be told elsewhere and in some cases in better detail. So we are left with 6/7ish minutes for one of the major scenes people have been anticipating. Well thank goodness episode 9 is coming up, because it has been randomly frickin decided that episode 9 always has to be big, god forbid the pacing of the story would necessitate 9 isn't some large set piece ... sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pallantides Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I will admit, with how much the series had deviated from the books in a lot of instances, this is one scene where I secretly had hopes that they would deviate drastically and have Oberyn live (not sure how that would change the rest of the series), but that was entirely because I quite like what Pedro Pascal did with the character. I felt he stole every scene he was in. It'll be a shame to see him go, because he truly has some on scree charisma. Hopefully he'll get a lot of prominent roles following this.For the most part in regards to the duel, I agree with Ran's analysis. A cut more in the realm of Troy (which was incidentally written by David Benioff), would have perhaps suited the fight more. Even just the way Achilles fought in the movie I think would have suited Oberyn's fighting style more than Wushu.I'd probably give the fight a 7.5 simply because it was exciting to watch (and it's the scene I have been anticipating the most ever since the t.v. series was announced), but there were some small aspects of it that could have just made it so much better and given it those 2 and a half points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Not the place to ask... but Ran, what are you thoughts and possible insights to the "bloody beetle scene?" It was too long... and superfluous anyway. Wtf were they thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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