[Book Spoilers] The Duel

[zaphodbrx]

A lot of people enjoyed the duel, specially TV-only viewers. Agreed, but I think the reason behind it is that the source material is just extremely good and that is what shows. From an adaptation perspective, I think it was disappointing. I'll try to explain why. I'm going to nitpick. Hell yeah.

The buildup

The whole episode has no King's Landing stuff in it until the end. And then when you finally think the duel is coming, you get 10 minutes of Orson Lannister crushing beetles. Just who thought this was a good idea. I don't care if it has some philosophical meaning, all the audience can think about is just get on with it already. Just sticks out like a sore thumb. The novels were already so good in this regard. You have these awesome Tyrion-Oberyn conversations which were all cut so that Oberyn could get a dumb line 'today is not the day I die'- Jojen's line, in a completely wrong context. And there is so much sub text in Oberyn's conversations , especially if you accept the Tywin poisoning theories 'Your father may not live forever', Cersei would support Myrcella's crowning, etc. The whole background is just cut. Bad, bad bad.

The equipment

Now I understand that you can't have actors wear helmets in film, they have to show their faces. OK, FINE.. as long as you don't DRAW attention to that fact in the freaking script. Now in real life, fighting without helmet would be suicide - it is the most important part of the armor. Sometimes they would fight without a visor just to get a better view, but they would not be bareheaded. Gregors greatsword striking your unprotected top or back of the head would split your skull, with a helm, you could get knocked back and maybe have a concussion but that is a much better deal. In fact in the novels, Oberyn does wear a halfhelm.

Gregor's case is even worse. He has a completely un historical type of helmet which just falls off. Like, what? I once witnessed a dangerous motorcycle accident at 40 kmph. The dude survived with his helmet still on- because that's the freaking point. A helm that just falls off when you need it the most is just self defeating and stupid.

A final comment about the spear. In most sparring situations/videos you'll see people using 6' poles because that's the most you can really fit into a car. A more realistic size would be 8' - the same as in the novels. In the show, the spear he uses is extremely short, like 5' or so max, so the entire point of having a longer reach is completely missed.

Fight choreography

What Martin describes in the novels is actually pretty realistic fight choreography . You can see a video example here of what it should have been like. Now I didn't expect the show to be anywhere as accurate or realistic. But what we did get was just really really bad.

The thing with stage combat is: you are trying to show a combat while being as safe as possible - which is exactly the opposite of what you would be trying to do in real combat, ie, to hurt your opponent. The trick is to do it in as realistic a manner while still looking good. This is difficult. Wu shu on the other hand is mainly for entertainment and acrobatic purposes. So when you use that in a fight supposedly to be to the death, it just ends up looking absurd.

is perhaps the best example of this- the linked video explains clearly why this 'fight' is rubbish. So when you have Oberyn just spinning around and twirling and doing this dance steps, its just hard to take him seriously. If I were in a duel to the death, I would probably learn a martial art that is focused towards, you know, killing people. Not this wu shu or star wars rubbish ( that would instantly get you killed in real life ).

Gregor is even more of a disappointment . I'm sorry, but this dude can't act. He just looks a little fat and round in his armor and totally not menacing in the slightest. Also, is he drunk or something. He just swings it around awkwardly with one hand as if he has no idea what he is doing.

The fight

Now, the fight is already problematic because Gregor is drunk and Oberyn is learning the ballet. But it is also too short and includes none of the cool stuff actually there in the novels that could distract you from the stupid fight choreography. Like the part where Gregor kills the unfortunate bystander, and the Sun comes out and Gregor puts the sun at his back, but Oberyn uses his shield to shine it in his face. Tyrion saying 'I am feeling more innocent every moment'. You know, the cool stuff that's there in the novels. They cut it out for what, Orson Lannister smashing beetles and burping whores and grey worm filler. Yeah..

The issues with the editing and camera angles have already been covered at length in other posts. I don't know much about this so all I'll say is that i just found it really bad, and awkward.

The end

I don't know if is possible to crush a man's skull with bare hands. Certainly it looked very goofy to me. When there was no need for it. They could have had him punch the face with his armored gauntlets, you know, like the novels.

In conclusion I just found it a disappointing end to a disappointing epsiode.

[ground_control]

Personally I thought the Duel was well executed and acted from start to finish.

Many of people's criticism of the scene could only be addressed by allocating more time to the duel and I think they gave it enough time to establish what was going on.

My primary objection is that the show didn't allocate enough time to the duel, so (a) obviously, allocating more time would address that complaint, but (b) obviously we disagree as to whether or not the show gave it enough time.

The scene didn't need "time to establish what was going on" -- we've had seven episodes leading up to that scene, if you didn't know there was going to be an epic duel between epic bad-asses determining whether or not the "main" character of the series lives or dies, and that one way or another, the Game was going to change as a result, then no amount of time would be enough to "establish" the scene.

I didn't want the duel outcome just "established" (read "foraged"), I wanted an scene that lasted long and drawn out and suspenseful enough for me to be able to say, "THIS was what I was waiting for."

Instead, we got the fantasy version of a romance movie where the guy spends 90 minutes trying to be cute and charming, and finally gets the girl, but instead of getting married, going to prom, strolling hand-in-hand down a beautiful beach at sunset, or whatever, he gets a 2 minute handjob in traffic and a cut to the credits.

[Boggsy Cyvasse]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maycie/heres-how-sundays-game-of-thrones-episode-should-have-actual?s=mobile

That was "simply the best"- especially having Oberyn do that same stabbing over and over- so satisfying. I love hearing Tywin sentence Tyrion to FREEEEDDDOOOMMM.

Such wish fulfillment.

[Boggsy Cyvasse]

Ok, the way I read that is The Mountain pulling Oberyn down into his chest to steady him for the pain that's about to come, a bear hug to stop the bugger from squirming. Am I reading it wrong? Or are we in agreement?

[Seneti]

LOL. He totally did go out screaming like a little bitch. How embarassing to be sitting in the driver's seat, ready to call down the thunder on this family you've been plotting against for years....and then you die screaming your head off in front of them.

Am I the only one who is totally disturbed by the idea that any male character that cries in moments of deep sadness or screams in moments of sheer agony is suddenly considered "a little bitch"? Guys, it's called being human.

The screams are easily the best part of the whole situation.

If only Nikolaj had this to take hints from when he lost his hand, and that they didn't ruin the moment with jarring pop punk one second later.

I agree, the screaming sold it for me. I did like Nikolaj's scene though. With an injury like that (quick and sudden instead of drawn out like Oberyn's eye gorging) there's usually a delay in response. It's that moment where you have not yet quite realized what just happened, but then it finally hits you and that's when the pain comes.

[Relic]

Am I the only one who is totally disturbed by the idea that any male character that cries in moments of deep sadness or screams in moments of sheer agony is suddenly considered "a little bitch"? Guys, it's called being human.

You are not alone. That and the fact that some people seem to have a large appreciation of the gore are both deeply troubling. Sadly, not surprising tho.

[sj4iy]

Am I the only one who is totally disturbed by the idea that any male character that cries in moments of deep sadness or screams in moments of sheer agony is suddenly considered "a little bitch"? Guys, it's called being human.

I agree, the screaming sold it for me. I did like Nikolaj's scene though. With an injury like that (quick and sudden instead of drawn out like Oberyn's eye gorging) there's usually a delay in response. It's that moment where you have not yet quite realized what just happened, but then it finally hits you and that's when the pain comes.

He did scream pretty loudly when his stump was being cleaned. But you're right...it makes sense that there would be a delayed reaction when he saw his hand cut off. It's not as if it were crushed or anything- it was straight up cut off in one swift moment. I cut my finger pretty badly, but it was a sharp knife, and I didn't feel the pain immediately.

And I don't see anyone NOT screaming in Oberyn's situation. Calling him a 'little bitch' for screaming in agony is just ridiculous, and was said by someone who has probably never experienced pain on that kind of level.

[Starksmustwin]

anyone seen the Denial/Alternate ending of the fight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oOi6JOXEQ

That.. is .. awesome. :D

[7th-key]

[...]

What Martin describes in the novels is actually pretty realistic fight choreography . You can see a video example here of what it should have been like. Now I didn't expect the show to be anywhere as accurate or realistic. But what we did get was just really really bad.

[...]

Thanx for that video example. Your whole post was brilliant.

[Boggsy Cyvasse]

Agreed. If anyone where to actually be alive and concious while that happened to their face and skull, they would let out a shriek or two before it finally caved/sploded/cracked. I can't even imagine just the sensation of your face cracking and giving way, even the part of it that wouldn't even necessarily be pain, but that feeling of the pressure finally causing the bones in your face to fracture. Those moments would be horrendous.

In the books, and the way that comic showed it- I felt like it happened extremely fast, Oberyn being stunned by that first punch and in no position to really react to what was happening to him fully... but the show's version I feel was worse, with Oberyn feeling every instant of it after that first punch, while his head was burst, slowly. Ugh I really haven't been able to watch it after that first time because of his scream. I knew people were going to start saying "like a bitch" once I saw it, though.. and that frustrated me. It's because I know all the difference was made in that he didn't give a more "manly" sounding, gutteral "AAAGGGGGHHHHH", instead of that shrill shriek that he gave out. People instantly jump on it because it's not a "masculine" scream, I feel. Please, like any of us would handle that stone-faced and silent, though. I'm just starting to feel lucky that they didn't go full realistic and have him void his bowels or piss himself.

[sj4iy]

Thanx for that video example. You whole post was brilliant.

It may have been more 'realistic', but god, was it boring as hell to watch.

[gvewolf243]

Ok, the way I read that is The Mountain pulling Oberyn down into his chest to steady him for the pain that's about to come, a bear hug to stop the bugger from squirming. Am I reading it wrong? Or are we in agreement?

You are right about it.

[Ran]

It may have been more 'realistic', but god, was it boring as hell to watch.

The main difference being that unlike the fellow who is held back by the spear, Gregor keeps pressing forward because he has masses of plate armor. Oberyn scores a lot of hits, but is constantly on the move, trying to keep Gregor at just the right distance while Gregor repeatedly gets in close enough to get cuts at him and his spear. The fight is described as not very linear, either -- it moves "back and forth", it "spirals" -- it's fairly active movement, which means you get more interesting angles of attack then just straight forward.

Suffice it to say, it would be much more "interesting" than the video above, in which a single hit ends the play and which the fight is in a limited, straight track.

I again cite the Rob Roy fight, simply in the way that it, too, isn't a linear combat, where small hits don't end the fight, where the individual with reach and speed toys with his opponent; something like this exchange makes for excellent, exciting choreography.

[Boggsy Cyvasse]

You are right about it.

Haha ok, cool. I was starting to wonder if maybe I had missed something, and been under the wrong impression for the last couple of years. I've had nearly as tough a time re-reading that chapter as I have so far re-watching the fight... and I liked the fight, for the most part... that end, though.

[22willdo]

with a helm, you could get knocked back and maybe have a concussion

Maybe? That's a slight understatement, don't you think? And then what? Regain strength and strike back? I don't see how a helmet could have helped him. Once struck by The Mountain (resp. his 6-foot broadsword), you're out..

[The Mountain That Posts]

Interesting. I thought ending the episode with Tyrion wide mouthed was a great idea. The viewers are left in Tyrion's shoes, disoriented, dismayed, scared (and staring blankly at the credits). It's a powerful ending imo.

For starters, Opeth is a great band.

I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that ending ending episodes with character reaction shots has happened literally every season. Starting with episode 3 of season one, onwards we're privy to the vast majority of episodes ending with the camera on their face. ESPECIALLY in recent times, in reactions to surprises. Jaime's episode ends with his scream and his face, Red Wedding ends with Cat's face, the episode before this ended with Tyrion and Oberyn's faces, etc.

Every now and then it works, but it's turned into a cheap way to end scenes two seconds after the twist happens - rather than giving us complete scenes.

[Eddard the Builder]

anyone seen the Denial/Alternate ending of the fight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oOi6JOXEQ

Absolutely hilarious.

[ServantOnIce]

Yeah, that's what I thought. The skull is the thickest, most reinforced part of your skeleton. Even if you're an incredibly strong man, simply crushing it with your bare hands (after receiving a crippling wound, no less) seem a bit ridiculous. You have little pressure points yet must apply it to a very tough, smooth and relatively small surface. I'm no expert but I always thought it was highly implausible.

TV Gregor practices, "Hokuto Shin Ken" :eek:

I did think that was not realistic. I wanted to see the smoking fist . . that Gregor used to finish Prince Oberyn.

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

And I don't see anyone NOT screaming in Oberyn's situation. Calling him a 'little bitch' for screaming in agony is just ridiculous, and was said by someone who has probably never experienced pain on that kind of level.

I don't think Oberyn's a little bitch, for the record. I think he screamed like one, yeah. But I gave my theory on why he did and it doesn't have anything to do with him being a little bitch. If you want to ignore that post, go right ahead.

On another note, I found some close up pics of both fighters' weapons. Oberyn's spear had a cool viper slithering up the shaft and more interesting than that... I see the black Clegane hound on a yellow field. I guess they were planning on giving Gregor a shield afterall.

[D-A-C]

Just to respond to all the 'crushing his head like a melon' is possible crowd.

Alot of us who didn't like it, don't like it, not because it's not possible physically and ruins immersion, but more it actually appears comical in the midst of a horrifying scene.

So, bascially I would have prefered it like this:

1. Oberyn gets lifted one handed, pulled round and punched so his teeth get knocked out exactly as happens

2. The Hound mounts Oberyn gouges his eyes and gives his speech, the terrible scream, gore, all still fine.

3. Then, when he comes to the conclusion and says 'then I smashed her head in, like this' instead of squishing his head and it splatting which is just silly looking, not even the physics of it, but its just stupid, why not have him lift one of his giant mailed fists and pummel his face into oblivion?

That's the change I would make, and not only does it avoid the whole is it possible debate, but its more viceral and consistant with how things would play out naturally.

So that's my problem with the head popping it isn't as terrifying/horrifying as the eye gouging/scream or even close as its so over the top it just actually ends up detracting from the horror that we have just witnessed.