[Book Spoilers] The Duel

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

If Tyrion had vomited, I probably would have, too. My stomach was queasy enough as it was, seeing someone wretch at that moment would have pushed me over the edge.

Does anyone else think that Oberyns death was a bit too extreme? I'm ok with some of the gore, I remember Gregor gouging one of his eyes out while crushing his head with the other one in the books, so that's ok I guess, but it was the screaming and that exploding head which almost made me vomit if I'm honest.

The battle itself was really cool imo, but they shouldve had Oberyn stay quiet during his death.. wouldve been pretty awesome if had they changed the plot a bit and made him say something like "have fun dying" right before he dies... it felt so bad watching a badass like Oberyn scream like a little girl, I mean of course that shit hurts and everyone would scream, but I'm sure a little lack of realism wouldnt have hurt anyone at that point.

Fully agree. I don't ever want to watch that scene again, but not because I didn't like it, but because I know I'm too squeamish and would probably throw up if I did.

I'm too traumatized to re-watch the fight scene for a better analysis

Hey guys, like my new avatar? :)

[Oakenfist]

Hey guys, like my new avatar? :)

My eyes hurt just looking at it.

[DaveyJoe]

Hey guys, like my new avatar? :)

:ack:

[Jasta11]

The duel at the end of Rob Roy is one of the greatest (if not greatest) fights over put on film. Why? First of all because it was properly build-up throughout the whole movie. The fight styles, prowess and weaknesses of both combatants were established before they actually engaged in combat. In other words, they made you care for both the fighters and the actual duel.

Secondly, the flow of the fight was realistic. Very intense in the beginning, before the weight of the swords and the exercise tired them out. And throughout the duel there were longer and longer pauzes and they got slower, because both participants got more exhausted.

On top of that, the moves of the duelists were realistic. They actually tried to hit each other (a glaring problem in many Hollywood films) and when Tim Roth landed one of his cuts, Neeson bled. And that affected the fight after that, since Neeson acted like a wounded man fighting (not like this Mountain shit who can still move so nimble after he's been speared through the gut).

And finally, the duel in Rob Roy showed how important it is to use your brains. When Roth and Neeson clashed swords, Roth had the upper hand because he was smarter. He was like a chessplayer, found the opening and landed his cut. This is how Oberyn should have fought, with precision and small adjustments and sidesteps to keep the Mountain at bay. All those ridiculous twists and spins were plain dumb, because Oberyn just tired himself out, without actually achieving something.

Oh, and one minor issue. In Rob Roy the participants used weapons and gear that suited them and the situation. They didn't wear helmets and armour because it was a duel. And each used the weapon that they could fight the best with. In GoT on the other hand, the Mountain has this nonsensical helmet, which doesn't do anything but fall off (instead of you know, just having him wear no helmet at all) and he fights without a shield! WTF wa up with that, he just looked plain silly. Either let him use both hands to wield that sword or give him a shield, not that akwkard combo of no shield and one hand on his sword.

And I think the duel in GoT/ASoIaF was better. Why? Because I knew Liam Neeson would win the moment I saw him as a Brave Scot in a kilt and his enemy as a Snooty Brit with a wig. He's The Hero against The Villain and The Hero wins because it's Hollywood. I never saw the movie and knew who would win before it even began. The actors can choreograph like they were born with swords in hands, the tension can be built up to ridiculous levels, the stakes can be sky-high, the filmography can give a cinema intern an orgasm, but if you know by convention that The Hero wins then it doesn't help that much to make it a great watch.

By contrast, the GoT duel might fail a bit on the technical side (mostly Oberyn and his useless jumping around, the Mountain not having a shield is understandable as he wears plate), but it broke the watcher's expectations and went all-out. I knew the outcome of course, but all of the show is a cut above almost anything I saw in mainstream cinema simply because The Hero doesn't always win in the end. The tension this adds cannot be described. A big budget film would never show anything close to the brutality of the Viper vs mountain duel, or have the ''good guy'' lose because he made a stupid mistake and die screaming.

And honesty I don't see the Rob Roy duel as anything special. Sure, there was tension, but I found Oberyn going from playful to vengeful and angry much more compelling than the usual stoic stares of Liam Neeson. The ''no, no, no, you can't die yet, you haven't confessed'' line was great. And if we're going to nitpick on realism, how many completely superfluous parries were in that duel? Each combatant had a dozen windows to finish the other off but they just parried because it made for better cinema. Plus, the villain's shoulder was split open and there's barely any blood? Cmon.

Seriously, you don't need to like the scene at all, but acting like Rob Roy should be everyone's golden standard is annoying and you and Ran have been doing it all thread long. Can we talk about something else?

[James Arryn]

Dear Jasta:

Your feelings are wrong.

Respectfully,

James

[WTFSalami]

And I think the duel in GoT/ASoIaF was better. Why? Because I knew Liam Neeson would win the moment I saw him as a Brave Scot in a kilt and his enemy as a Snooty Brit with a wig. He's The Hero against The Villain and The Hero wins because it's Hollywood. I never saw the movie and knew who would win before it even began. The actors can choreograph like they were born with swords in hands, the tension can be built up to ridiculous levels, the stakes can be sky-high, the filmography can give a cinema intern an orgasm, but if you know by convention that The Hero wins then it doesn't help that much to make it a great watch.

By contrast, the GoT duel might fail a bit on the technical side (mostly Oberyn and his useless jumping around, the Mountain not having a shield is understandable as he wears plate), but it broke the watcher's expectations and went all-out. I knew the outcome of course, but all of the show is a cut above almost anything I saw in mainstream cinema simply because The Hero doesn't always win in the end. The tension this adds cannot be described. A big budget film would never show anything close to the brutality of the Viper vs mountain duel, or have the ''good guy'' lose because he made a stupid mistake and die screaming.

And honesty I don't see the Rob Roy duel as anything special. Sure, there was tension, but I found Oberyn going from playful to vengeful and angry much more compelling than the usual stoic stares of Liam Neeson. The ''no, no, no, you can't die yet, you haven't confessed'' line was great. And if we're going to nitpick on realism, how many completely superfluous parries were in that duel? Each combatant had a dozen windows to finish the other off but they just parried because it made for better cinema. Plus, the villain's shoulder was split open and there's barely any blood? Cmon.

Seriously, you don't need to like the scene at all, but acting like Rob Roy should be everyone's golden standard is annoying and you and Ran have been doing it all thread long. Can we talk about something else?

*slow clap*

Had Rob Roy wanted to break new ground and do something worth talking about, Roth would have dominated the fight from the beginning, and finished Neeson off with a slow Needle-to-Polliver's-throat like maneuver. Instead...whatever, seen it a million times.

Not to mention how goofy the last few seconds of that duel was. Rolled my eyes so hard I almost passed out.

[Aether]

I'm pretty surprised at how much hate this fight scene is getting. I thought it was basically perfect. The only somewhat important difference is that he crushes his skull instead of smashing it with a gauntlet, but a 420+ pound man wearing several hundred pounds of armour putting all of his weight and strength on your face with your head pressed against cement... it's not at all unbelievable that he could obliterate his skull like that.

People complaining that he shouldn't have been able to move after being stabbed, just don't have a very firm grasp of how resilient the human body can be. There are people who get shot in the brain and survive, people who get stabbed dozens of times and carry their own intestines to the emergency room and survive.. Go watch a show called "I survived..." It's just one story after another of people suffering grizzly injuries and managing somehow to survive. It's not like when you get stabbed your whole body just shuts down instantly. He would be in great pain and his strength would drain as he lost blood from the wound, but it's again, really not out of the question that he could still have the strength to pull down a man who weighs about 300 pounds less than him and smash his face in.

I'm surprised tbh. If this scene wasn't accurate enough for you, my suspicion is that no adaptation of the story will ever be good enough or close enough to the books for you.

[Veltigar]

And I think the duel in GoT/ASoIaF was better. Why? Because I knew Liam Neeson would win the moment I saw him as a Brave Scot in a kilt and his enemy as a Snooty Brit with a wig. He's The Hero against The Villain and The Hero wins because it's Hollywood. I never saw the movie and knew who would win before it even began. The actors can choreograph like they were born with swords in hands, the tension can be built up to ridiculous levels, the stakes can be sky-high, the filmography can give a cinema intern an orgasm, but if you know by convention that The Hero wins then it doesn't help that much to make it a great watch.

By contrast, the GoT duel might fail a bit on the technical side (mostly Oberyn and his useless jumping around, the Mountain not having a shield is understandable as he wears plate), but it broke the watcher's expectations and went all-out. I knew the outcome of course, but all of the show is a cut above almost anything I saw in mainstream cinema simply because The Hero doesn't always win in the end. The tension this adds cannot be described. A big budget film would never show anything close to the brutality of the Viper vs mountain duel, or have the ''good guy'' lose because he made a stupid mistake and die screaming.

And honesty I don't see the Rob Roy duel as anything special. Sure, there was tension, but I found Oberyn going from playful to vengeful and angry much more compelling than the usual stoic stares of Liam Neeson. The ''no, no, no, you can't die yet, you haven't confessed'' line was great. And if we're going to nitpick on realism, how many completely superfluous parries were in that duel? Each combatant had a dozen windows to finish the other off but they just parried because it made for better cinema. Plus, the villain's shoulder was split open and there's barely any blood? Cmon.

Seriously, you don't need to like the scene at all, but acting like Rob Roy should be everyone's golden standard is annoying and you and Ran have been doing it all thread long. Can we talk about something else?

Tsss, such poor taste. Oberyn vs. the Mountain could have had that shock effect you claim it had (did anyone really expect Oberyn to win that in the books? Tyrion already escaped once and his role in KL was done. Didn't expect Oberyn to lose in the way he did, but I thought Greg would make mince meat of him) and still be executed to perfection technically. Or at least in a manner that wasn't as braindead as this piece of shit.

[D-A-C]

Well, I have talked to death about my disappointment with how it turned out so I won't go on repeating myself. Also, I'll be the one to say it, I don't give a damn about Rob Roy, I come here to discuss game of thrones.

I understand you guys are paralleling back and forth about it as an example of a well choreographed fight blah, blah, its not the only decent duel in cinematic history, move on already.

Anyway, can we all agree, that now what GRRM has to do is write a book detailing the adventures of Oberyn from sleeping with a nobles daughter and gaining his nickname in the ensuing duel, to his adventures in Essos learning about poisons and possibly magic, fighting in the slave pits, taking many, many lovers with Ellaria Sand etc.

Then we need Pedro Pascal back to film it all :)

We can surely all agree on that?

[Relic]

Hey guys, like my new avatar? :)

thanks god for the "block image" function. horrible.

[Jasta11]

Tsss, such poor taste. Oberyn vs. the Mountain could have had that shock effect you claim it had (did anyone really expect Oberyn to win that in the books? Tyrion already escaped once and his role in KL was done. Didn't expect Oberyn to lose in the way he did, but I thought Greg would make mince meat of him) and still be executed to perfection technically. Or at least in a manner that wasn't as braindead as this piece of shit.

I hope you're not that much of a pretentious asshat all the time. You're really not helping the cliche of book readers being unpleaseable jerks either.

I guess accepting that people can have different opinions is some sort of superhuman effort.

[ground_control]

By contrast, the GoT duel might fail a bit on the technical side (mostly Oberyn and his useless jumping around, the Mountain not having a shield is understandable as he wears plate), but it broke the watcher's expectations and went all-out. I knew the outcome of course, but all of the show is a cut above almost anything I saw in mainstream cinema simply because The Hero doesn't always win in the end. The tension this adds cannot be described. A big budget film would never show anything close to the brutality of the Viper vs mountain duel, or have the ''good guy'' lose because he made a stupid mistake and die screaming.

The duel was a snooze-fest, I never thought Oberyn was in any danger of losing until he did, which makes the ending shocking, but doesn't make the duel suspenseful. The fact that it looked like it was tacked on to the end of the episode that was supposed to have it as the main feature didn't help.

[yushkevitch]

On second viewing I stick by my earlier observation on why the ending seemed cartoonish: When The Mountain lifts him it looks like Oberyn is a mannequin, his body is completely stiff and seems to be levitating as Clegane holds him up by the neck and punches him.

I know it's real nitpicking but those few seconds made the entire ending of the fight lose it's impact for me. Again, I applaud the director for attempting a very difficult scene to film but they just missed.

[Seneti]

I'm surprised tbh. If this scene wasn't accurate enough for you, my suspicion is that no adaptation of the story will ever be good enough or close enough to the books for you.

Agreed. And that in and of itself is very sad.

thanks god for the "block image" function. horrible.

There is a "block image" function on the Westeros board? I only know about the "ignore user" function.

Speaking of which: congratulations, Gregor's Nancy Boy. You are the first guy I ever blocked on any forum not because of what they've written, but because of a user avatar.

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

thanks god for the "block image" function. horrible.

I'm sorry... it just fits my name so perfectly.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

I watched it again for the 5th time. They did an amazing job. I love how the camera keeps cutting back to Jaime and how he starts smiling more and more as Oberyn is wining. I love how Tyrion is so worried when he doesn't finish him quickly.

Yep no "I'm feeling more innocent by the instant."

[pleonasm]

A couple of others thoughts regarding the duel.

1. The absence / multiple re-casts of the Mountain didn't do the duel scene any favors, nor did the relative lack of screen time of both fighters in the actual episode. A few quick of scenes of both fighters prepping for the battle would have done wonders for the actual dual itself. Especially given the non-entity that the Mountain has been in the series since Season 1 (we all have conveniently forgotten his completely unmemorable appearances in Season 2). Instead we get 5 minutes of Cousin Orson... ugghh.

2. The duel itself felt very rushed. This was a big moment in the show, building for multiple episodes, indulge... amp the tension, let us see them exhaust themselves, let us hear some commentary from the crowd (instead of the mostly stoic glances from Tywin and Cersei).

3. For me the most horrific part of the book scene isn't the Mountain head crushing Oberyn, its once the Mountain gains the upper hand, he yells out his confession "I killed the welps. I raped her. I killed her!" That is truly gut wrenching. I wanted that.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

That avatar is pretty funny, if anything. It doesn't look remotely real. It's so obviously a rubber dummy head.

[Er Rn]

This, along with Baelor, are the two episodes of this series I never want to watch again. Too heartbreaking.

The duel itself was ok. I didn't care for all the jumping spin moves over and over. The gouging of the eyes was too much.

I do wish that rather than Tyrion and Jaime making fun of the mentally handicapped for 5 min we would've had more time with him and Ellaria beforehand. We've had numerous brothel scenes all season but we couldn't get more than a few words between them this ep?

I'm also in the camp that took this harder than the Red Wedding.

[~DarkHorse~]

Hey guys, like my new avatar? :)

Too soon man! Too soon.

The image is already burned into my memory...I may never be able to re-watch his scenes and look at his head in the same way.

Oh Damn!