Three Shadows in Bran's Vision

[Ser Ious Woodmont]

Very interesting OP and discussion.

Probably much too farfetched, but could it be that the three shadows are like Christmas Carol's past, present and future. Sandor Clegane could be the present danger/threat, for he is searching for Nymeria/Micah. If the second shadow would be Jaime, it he could be mean to be the past danger, pushing Bran out. Ilyn Payne then is the the future threat: the one who kills Ned.

I don't really feel the need to defend this, for it is rather silly, but this way you have a link between the shadows and the Starks.

[Dorian Martell]

Lastly, why, pray tell, would Bran see Oberyn and Gregor at the Trident surrounding his family?

That makes zero sense.

Don't get me wrong, their fight is entertaining, but it's irrelevant to the picture Bran is seeing. It happens years later, in a completely different region of Westeros, and is part of the political story Bran has nothing to do with.

Bran is involved in matters far different from the game of thrones. Do you really think GRRM would give Bran a dream brimming with people that are relevant to him, his family, and his destiny -- except for these two?

1: First, Gregor was sent reaving after Cat took Tyrion. He was meant to draw Eddard into the open to get captured and ransomed for Tyrion. Oberyn ends up being the catalyst that IMO causes Greg to become Bob. Greg also captures Arya, even though he had no idea who she was. Ned and his girls were at the hand tourney when Greg went crazy and killed his horse.

2: As for the timeline, these are visions/dreams. They do not need to make sense to be part of a story. Why should they be bound to a timeline. That is at best your personal opinion.

3: Remember, the dreams are ways to foreshadow the plot to the readers. Since there are two more books, we do not know what Bran's destiny is. Things Like Cat and Rodrick being unaware of an impending storm can be a literal storm or the WOT5Ks where cat and rod are both killed by folks who they thought were friends/allies. And what about the heart of winter. At the end of book 5 Bran is in a tree, Jon is dead and everyone else is south of the wall. Why did he see that when he did if the timeline was so important in the visions?

The answer is, George will probably tell us if he lives to finish the series

[Voice]

Regarding shadow #3:

I know this is a stretch, but.... GRRM specifically describes shadows, not people. Shadows, of course, are cast by people- people who are likely to have a major impact on the Starks throughout the series. I don't know if someone has to be physically present for their shadow to loom over other characters. If so, Ilyn is the best choice since he is there, but I don't think it's him for reasons already explained by others earlier in the thread. So maybe we can consider characters not present but likely to be important? In that case:

There are later mentions of someone casting a 'very large shadow' ... a small man, actually. One who is also referred to as "giant of Lannister", albeit in an either flirting or mocking way. Given how dark his character is becoming, and given that the descriptions of the shadows may include foreshadowing of later developments... and the fact that he came in contact with grayscale (stone armor)... You see where I'm going with this. :D

I like this. I'd like it more if Tyrion was present with the caravan at the Trident though, but I appreciate a fellow reader thinking outside the box.

I always thought that the three shadows were the Hound, Jaime and Robert. They are all present where the incident takes place and all in some way represent danger to the Starks. The Hound is obvious as he's the one that kills Mycah and he presumably would not have treated Arya gently either were he the one to find her. Jaime leads the search for Arya on the Lannister side andwe later learn that he would probably have killed Arya if he came across her to please Cersei. He might be in the Kings guard but that's not his primary identity at that time, and 'armoured like the sun' presumably refers to the golden radiance which is used to describe him quite often. It could potentially also be Cersei herself, who masks her true character by her beautiful golden queen public persona.

The description of the third shadow fits Robert, because he towers over everyone else due to being King and also because it's ultimately him who has the final say in the matter. He is made of stone because of his cold indifference towards Lady's fate where he lets her die despite knowing she's innocent just so he can avoid an argument with his wife. It is our first indication that he is not the man Ned used to know. The darkness points both to his now rotten core and is an early foreshadowing of his death. And Robert is the reason why they even are in this situation in the first place.

Wow, I never considered Cersei. How sexist of me! I could definitely see her as a beautiful golden shadow, armored like the sun, around Bran's beloved father and sisters as he pleads with the king at the Trident. I thank you for thinking outside the box as well :)

I don't see King Robert as Shadow 3 simply because Bran recognizes him in the same scene. This is the same reason I have for not believing Jaime to be Shadow 2, as Bran knows his face well, and already saw it earlier in this vision. But yeah, I could see Cersei working very well as Shadow 2.

No one in the series has armored themselves in golden beauty more than her. Brilliant!

:bowdown:

I thank you for helping all some of us see something new, Maid So Fair!

1: First, Gregor was sent reaving after Cat took Tyrion. He was meant to draw Eddard into the open to get captured and ransomed for Tyrion.

So Bran saw the Mountain at the Trident because Tywin was going to try to lure Ned away from King's Landing, but it didn't work because Ned immediately sent Beric Dondarrion...and... and... Bloodraven needed to show this to Bran in a dream why?

Oberyn ends up being the catalyst that IMO causes Greg to become Bob.

Yes, I think we all get it that Oberyn's poison screwed up Gregor's blood, caused him to begin to die extremely slowly, and that Qyburn then jumped at the opportunity to create Robert Strong. It is quite obvious to anyone on the first read.

Where I disagree with you, is this: I do not see how Bran would benefit from insight into the creation of Robert Strong.

He means nothing to Bran, as does Oberyn.

And, if we remove the conversation from the story itself, and consider the Vision as a literary technique, does the Gregor-stein transformation require foreshadowing? I mean it's really obvious. And maybe I am trivializing it, but to me, he doesn't seem that important to the overall story.

Greg also captures Arya, even though he had no idea who she was.

LOL okay... Yeah, he sort of had Arya, then she got away. Again, very little impact on the story. ...Zero impact on Bran.

Ned and his girls were at the hand tourney when Greg went crazy and killed his horse.

And...?

Sorry, not seeing how this is relevant ...to anything ...ever. :lol: I'm just messing with you, but really, I'm not seeing how this helps your argument. Arya wasn't at the tourney and it didn't impact Ned or Sansa very much when he beheaded his horse. Sure, it was a dick move, but the Hound actually rose triumphant over the Mountain in that tourney, which doesn't jive with Bran's Vision (not to mention the tourney is in KL, and Bran is looking at the Trident, but oh well, we've re-hashed that enough).

2: As for the timeline, these are visions/dreams. They do not need to make sense to be part of a story. Why should they be bound to a timeline. That is at best your personal opinion.

Isn't that exactly what you're doing as well? ...trying to make sense of the "visions/dreams"???

C'mon man! "At best," it is "your personal opinion" that these shadows should not make sense at all, and Bran desperately needed to see shadows at the Trident cast by men standing in King's Landing years later in the future, and they are all around Ned and his sisters long after the Starks left King's Landing!!! :bang:

3: Remember, the dreams are ways to foreshadow the plot to the readers.

I would say they are a way to do that, plus more. But yes, I agree. In fact, I think that point helps support my theory more than your own.

Shadow 3 being Ilyn Payne foreshadows something that will effect Bran deeply. And, not only that, Ned's execution is very sudden and unexpected.

Shadow 3 being Robert Strong foreshadows something for whoever stands against him in Cersei's trial by combat. And, not only that, Robert Strong standing as Cersei's champion is very predictable. Why would this, or Oberyn facing Gregor, need foreshadowing?

Since there are two more books, we do not know what Bran's destiny is. Things Like Cat and Rodrick being unaware of an impending storm can be a literal storm or the WOT5Ks where cat and rod are both killed by folks who they thought were friends/allies.

Sure. I agree. And which Starks thought of the Mountain as a friend before he killed them? I don't remember that chapter...

And what about the heart of winter. At the end of book 5 Bran is in a tree, Jon is dead and everyone else is south of the wall. Why did he see that when he did if the timeline was so important in the visions?

Um, see what? Jon? the heart of winter? I'll assume you meant all of the above...

1. The heart of winter.

Bran saw it because that is why he must live. The three eyed crow said it, clear as day. Bran saw what lurks there and cried out in horror. It is coming. Winter is Coming. He knows that as a Stark, he must be prepared for it. Whatever it is, it is indeed in the North, just where Bran saw it. ...Just as everyone else in Bran's dream is where he saw them.

2. At the end of book 5 Bran is in a tree

Yes, so...? Bran didn't see that in his dream, if that is what you meant to imply. If not, yes, I read book 5, and remember Bran visiting BR and being instructed in the ways of green-seeing.... moving on...

3. Jon is dead

"Oh, you think he's dead, do you?"

And I think it makes perfect sense for Bran to look north and see ...the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. Again, you prove my point. Jon is at the Wall, exactly where Bran sees him. And while he sees his 'bastard brother' in the present, he also glimpses Jon's emotional state, and possible future, emanating from him (depressed and lonely, and possibly the Ides of Marsh event).

4. And everyone else is south of the wall

Uh-huh, yes... and...? Again, Bran sees his family members where they actually are in his vision. The rest of his family is south of the Wall. Robb is in WF. Cat is on a galley in the Bite. Sansa and Arya are at the Trident with his father as he pleads with the king (King Robert is also actually at the Trident) as shadows are all around them.

5. Why did he see that when he did if the timeline was so important in the visions?

Why did he see his family members where they are presently located if the timeline was so important in the visions?

I think you have answered your own question, Ser.

The answer is, George will probably tell us if he lives to finish the series

Gods, you're right! And thank goodness we have your insight in case he doesn't! :owned:

[TheButcherCrow]

I think your on to something OP, I do. Your logic is pretty sound. If we accept the premise that the 3EC in Bran's dream is BR (which is not 100% certain). Then we can assume he is feeding Bran these images from the Weirnet. Now if we accept your premise that in the shadows Bran sees the true nature of the person casting the shadow (which fits quite nicely with a lot of mythology) then that ties back to the idea that a person is unable to lie in front of a heart tree. I'm a believer.

[Voice]

I think your on to something OP, I do. Your logic is pretty sound. If we accept the premise that the 3EC in Bran's dream is BR (which is not 100% certain). Then we can assume he is feeding Bran these images from the Weirnet. Now if we accept your premise that in the shadows Bran sees the true nature of the person casting the shadow (which fits quite nicely with a lot of mythology) then that ties back to the idea that a person is unable to lie in front of a heart tree. I'm a believer.

Exactly! I had some more in my first draft re: lying before a heart tree, and some other tangential references that touch on other theories. I trimmed down this topic in hopes of encouraging more folks to read it but perhaps I should have stuck with the long version.

[TheButcherCrow]

Exactly! I had some more in my first draft re: lying before a heart tree, and some other tangential references that touch on other theories. I trimmed down this topic in hopes of encouraging more folks to read it but perhaps I should have stuck with the long version.

Having just reread the sections of agot, I'm not so sure anymore. Bran's chapter says "He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night" this is obviously not 100% real time as clearly Sansa was not crying herself to sleep while Ned was pleading with the King, she was present for that. She must have been crying later after Lady was killed. Also, "Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart." What secrets did Arya have at this point ? Needle? The fact she got rid of Nymeria? That said, I still think Ilyn Payne is the "giant in armour made of stone" (that's very different from "giant made of stone" which seems to be the basis to most of the LF theories). The dog-man must be Clegane. The other shadow is problematic, how can a shadow in anyway resemble the sun? At this point I would lean toward Cersei, as the shadows seem to be threatening and Barristan doesn't pose a threat.

[Dorian Martell]

I like this. I'd like it more if Tyrion was present with the caravan at the Trident though, but I appreciate a fellow reader thinking outside the box.

Wow, I never considered Cersei. How sexist of me! I could definitely see her as a beautiful golden shadow, armored like the sun, around Bran's beloved father and sisters as he pleads with the king at the Trident. I thank you for thinking outside the box as well :)

I don't see King Robert as Shadow 3 simply because Bran recognizes him in the same scene. This is the same reason I have for not believing Jaime to be Shadow 2, as Bran knows his face well, and already saw it earlier in this vision. But yeah, I could see Cersei working very well as Shadow 2.

No one in the series has armored themselves in golden beauty more than her. Brilliant!

:bowdown:

I thank you for helping all some of us see something new, Maid So Fair!

So Bran saw the Mountain at the Trident because Tywin was going to try to lure Ned away from King's Landing, but it didn't work because Ned immediately sent Beric Dondarrion...and... and... Bloodraven needed to show this to Bran in a dream why?

Yes, I think we all get it that Oberyn's poison screwed up Gregor's blood, caused him to begin to die extremely slowly, and that Qyburn then jumped at the opportunity to create Robert Strong. It is quite obvious to anyone on the first read.

Where I disagree with you, is this: I do not see how Bran would benefit from insight into the creation of Robert Strong.

He means nothing to Bran, as does Oberyn.

And, if we remove the conversation from the story itself, and consider the Vision as a literary technique, does the Gregor-stein transformation require foreshadowing? I mean it's really obvious. And maybe I am trivializing it, but to me, he doesn't seem that important to the overall story.

LOL okay... Yeah, he sort of had Arya, then she got away. Again, very little impact on the story. ...Zero impact on Bran.

And...?

Sorry, not seeing how this is relevant ...to anything ...ever. :lol: I'm just messing with you, but really, I'm not seeing how this helps your argument. Arya wasn't at the tourney and it didn't impact Ned or Sansa very much when he beheaded his horse. Sure, it was a dick move, but the Hound actually rose triumphant over the Mountain in that tourney, which doesn't jive with Bran's Vision (not to mention the tourney is in KL, and Bran is looking at the Trident, but oh well, we've re-hashed that enough).

Isn't that exactly what you're doing as well? ...trying to make sense of the "visions/dreams"???

C'mon man! "At best," it is "your personal opinion" that these shadows should not make sense at all, and Bran desperately needed to see shadows at the Trident cast by men standing in King's Landing years later in the future, and they are all around Ned and his sisters long after the Starks left King's Landing!!! :bang:

I would say they are a way to do that, plus more. But yes, I agree. In fact, I think that point helps support my theory more than your own.

Shadow 3 being Ilyn Payne foreshadows something that will effect Bran deeply. And, not only that, Ned's execution is very sudden and unexpected.

Shadow 3 being Robert Strong foreshadows something for whoever stands against him in Cersei's trial by combat. And, not only that, Robert Strong standing as Cersei's champion is very predictable. Why would this, or Oberyn facing Gregor, need foreshadowing?

Sure. I agree. And which Starks thought of the Mountain as a friend before he killed them? I don't remember that chapter...

Um, see what? Jon? the heart of winter? I'll assume you meant all of the above...

1. The heart of winter.

Bran saw it because that is why he must live. The three eyed crow said it, clear as day. Bran saw what lurks there and cried out in horror. It is coming. Winter is Coming. He knows that as a Stark, he must be prepared for it. Whatever it is, it is indeed in the North, just where Bran saw it. ...Just as everyone else in Bran's dream is where he saw them.

2. At the end of book 5 Bran is in a tree

Yes, so...? Bran didn't see that in his dream, if that is what you meant to imply. If not, yes, I read book 5, and remember Bran visiting BR and being instructed in the ways of green-seeing.... moving on...

3. Jon is dead

"Oh, you think he's dead, do you?"

And I think it makes perfect sense for Bran to look north and see ...the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. Again, you prove my point. Jon is at the Wall, exactly where Bran sees him. And while he sees his 'bastard brother' in the present, he also glimpses Jon's emotional state, and possible future, emanating from him (depressed and lonely, and possibly the Ides of Marsh event).

4. And everyone else is south of the wall

Uh-huh, yes... and...? Again, Bran sees his family members where they actually are in his vision. The rest of his family is south of the Wall. Robb is in WF. Cat is on a galley in the Bite. Sansa and Arya are at the Trident with his father as he pleads with the king (King Robert is also actually at the Trident) as shadows are all around them.

5. Why did he see that when he did if the timeline was so important in the visions?

Why did he see his family members where they are presently located if the timeline was so important in the visions?

I think you have answered your own question, Ser.

Gods, you're right! And thank goodness we have your insight in case he doesn't! :owned:

Wow, using an "owned" emoticon! that's sooooo l33t. you must be a demon with the ladies. I hope 2003 is treating you well. Is the second season of Enterprise any good?

But seriously, your assumption is based on all of the visions happening in real time and there is no definitive evidence. The fact that you have to reach for Illyn to be the third shadow should tell you a lot. Visions in the story rarely fit something concrete, and often they have multiple meanings. Cat sails through a storm and dies during "a STORM of swords," Gregor capturing arya was a major turning point for her character. Blah blah blah.

I understand you don't want to discuss anything that you disagree with but this is not a contest. So I will just leave you with your epic '03 l33tness and the satisfaction it gives you. You should be happy retelling this story as a great victory over some stranger you had an interaction with on a text based internet forum about a fantasy novel. If that doesn't bring the hotties, I don't know what will. ;)

[Maid So Fair]

Wow, I never considered Cersei. How sexist of me! I could definitely see her as a beautiful golden shadow, armored like the sun, around Bran's beloved father and sisters as he pleads with the king at the Trident. I thank you for thinking outside the box as well :)

I don't see King Robert as Shadow 3 simply because Bran recognizes him in the same scene. This is the same reason I have for not believing Jaime to be Shadow 2, as Bran knows his face well, and already saw it earlier in this vision. But yeah, I could see Cersei working very well as Shadow 2.

No one in the series has armored themselves in golden beauty more than her. Brilliant!

:bowdown:

I thank you for helping all some of us see something new, Maid So Fair!

Thank you, I didn't think of Cersei until after recently either! :cheers:

As for Robert, I don't see this as a continuous vision but a combination of snippets of true real time events riddled with green sight. The vision of Ned arguing with the King is distinct from the three shadows vision (and the other visions like Catelyn on the boat, Arya holding her secrets etc) even if they share a common thread. They are two separate scenes to me. I don't therefore find it odd that one person would play two roles within them, especially since it's clear that the shadows are metaphorical, similar to Jojen's vision of Winterfell being drowned by the sea. He does not realise this means the Ironborn either. Going back to Bran, it is a lot more likely that the scene with Catelyn sailing into the storm points to the events ahead of her in King's Landing and the upcoming war she inadvertently causes rather than her admittedly stormy sea crossing.

Bran has also met and therefore would presumably recognise most other people discussed as options in this thread, including the Hound who seems to be the most readily agreed upon shadow. This suggests that Bran does not see these people in the real sense of the word (unlike the other scenes where he sees recognisable people).

[Voice]

Good stuff folks, cool to see other angles on everything...

Having just reread the sections of agot, I'm not so sure anymore. Bran's chapter says "He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night" this is obviously not 100% real time as clearly Sansa was not crying herself to sleep while Ned was pleading with the King, she was present for that. She must have been crying later after Lady was killed. Also, "Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart." What secrets did Arya have at this point ? Needle? The fact she got rid of Nymeria? That said, I still think Ilyn Payne is the "giant in armour made of stone" (that's very different from "giant made of stone" which seems to be the basis to most of the LF theories). The dog-man must be Clegane. The other shadow is problematic, how can a shadow in anyway resemble the sun? At this point I would lean toward Cersei, as the shadows seem to be threatening and Barristan doesn't pose a threat.

I think it is 100% real-time when Bran focuses on each person, place, or event. So for example, when he turns his sight on the Trident, he first sees his father pleading with the King. The description is brief, and we do not know how long he watched Robert and Ned's conversation. As he is in a coma, there is no way of knowing how time manifests itself, but it could be slower.

I see everything happening in realtime still, and Lady is killed immediately after this conversation. Night has already fallen, and Sansa is likely crying herself to sleep (we have no 1st person POV on this except for Bran's Vision). I would add that he is comatose for a very long time. It makes sense to me that he would see his father in the hall with the king, watch that unfold, then see Sansa crying herself to sleep later that same evening. He has nothing else to do, though rewriting every detail over again in the very next chapter would be tiresome to read, and not very creative writing.

Arya and her secrets are more intriguing. I think with her he sees the acorn and the oak. He sees her longing to exact revenge on Joffrey for lying and causing the death of Lady and the butcher's boy. She is a Stark, and perhaps more inherently than any other Stark alive feels the natural need to swing the sword once passing judgement. She was the real judge in Robert's court. She judged the king, her father, Sansa, Joffrey, and the Queen in that instant. The seed was planted for her list, and it will only grow. I think Arya has many secrets, and this is one. Another could be her breaking gender stereotypes, identifying with the Lone Wolf she will become, etc. Bran sees her in the present, as well as the person she will become. The acorn and the oak. But, I remain firmly resolved he sees her at the Trident just after Ned's pleading with Robert, because that is where they all actually were located.

Wow, using an "owned" emoticon! that's sooooo l33t. you must be a demon with the ladies. I hope 2003 is treating you well. Is the second season of Enterprise any good?

But seriously, your assumption is based on all of the visions happening in real time and there is no definitive evidence. The fact that you have to reach for Illyn to be the third shadow should tell you a lot. Visions in the story rarely fit something concrete, and often they have multiple meanings. Cat sails through a storm and dies during "a STORM of swords," Gregor capturing arya was a major turning point for her character. Blah blah blah.
I understand you don't want to discuss anything that you disagree with but this is not a contest. So I will just leave you with your epic '03 l33tness and the satisfaction it gives you. You should be happy retelling this story as a great victory over some stranger you had an interaction with on a text based internet forum about a fantasy novel. If that doesn't bring the hotties, I don't know what will. ;)

I think you must have taken my post more seriously than it was intended. Humor and sarcasm, are hard to type.

And it isn't much of a reach. Ser Ilyn is right there at the Trident, way over there at the place Bran is looking. Even Tyrion could reach something at such an arm's length.

And yes, my consort thinks this forum is pretty dorky LOL as we all should! Can't take ourselves too seriously here.

Thank you, I didn't think of Cersei until after recently either! :cheers:

As for Robert, I don't see this as a continuous vision but a combination of snippets of true real time events riddled with green sight.

Maybe I should just let you explain my theory from now on, you're doing a much better job of it! :D

The vision of Ned arguing with the King is distinct from the three shadows vision (and the other visions like Catelyn on the boat, Arya holding her secrets etc) even if they share a common thread. They are two separate scenes to me. I don't therefore find it odd that one person would play two roles within them, especially since it's clear that the shadows are metaphorical, similar to Jojen's vision of Winterfell being drowned by the sea. He does not realise this means the Ironborn either. Going back to Bran, it is a lot more likely that the scene with Catelyn sailing into the storm points to the events ahead of her in King's Landing and the upcoming war she inadvertently causes rather than her admittedly stormy sea crossing.

Bran has also met and therefore would presumably recognise most other people discussed as options in this thread, including the Hound who seems to be the most readily agreed upon shadow. This suggests that Bran does not see these people in the real sense of the word (unlike the other scenes where he sees recognisable people).

Great points. And that could very well explain their Shadowy nature. It is much easier for me to see the reasoning behind Robert, Jaime, or anyone else at the Trident than it is these other characters half a realm away. I get that LF has a hand in the game unfolding, but not these events at the Trident.

If some of the other places included people that weren't actually at those places, then I'd be more apt to believe it possible at the Trident. But everything else is in situ. So it strains credibility for me, particularly given that Shadow 1 is so obvious, and is at the Trident.

[Erryk]

I just joined this thread with the intention of sharing my impression that Shadow #2 is Cersei, but Maid So Fair beat me to it. :) Remember that she teaches Sansa that "A lady's courtesy is her armor." Sandor and Cersei were both extremely strong influences on Arya and Sansa, and both were there at the Trident when Bran has his vision. Looming ominously over both the Queen and the Hound is Gregor Clegane, the Mountain that Rides, and I don't think the way it's written that he needs to be there at the time, just that he is important to both of their futures.

[Starkbringer]

Thanks OP for posting this. I have just re-read this part for the 4th time and stayed up late trying to figure out who the shadows represent. I very much agree that they are being shown in real time to Bran through Bloodraven. The dangers at the Trident to the Starks were so overwhelming that it's tough to place them all. I have enjoyed reading all the ideas listed and I'll want to add my own.

Shadow 1 - Sandor Clegane. He kills Mycah thereby creating a hatred in Arya that has a lasting effect. Might have hurt Arya if he had found her before Jory. I'd say he was an immediate threat.

Shadow 2 - I feel this represents Joffrey. The happenings at the Trident changed everything in Joff's eyes. He does not forgive and he harbored great hatred for Ned and all things Stark related. As we later learn it was Joff (suposedly) that hired Bran's assasin. He is a definate threat.

Shadow 3 - This one stumps me. I wanted it to be LF but he was not there physically. However, it was his doings that made Ned determined to go to KL and solve John Arryn's death. The distrust between Starks and Lannisters was established with Lisa's letter to Catelyn. He did pose a huge threat that the Starks were very unaware of. So in a way his shadow loomed over affairs at the Trident. OK, I just talked myself into it. I still beleive it was LF. My second guess would be Iilyn Payne.

I like the way you explained his muderous past Kings justice or no. The man is a threat.

[LongRider]

Very interesting OP and discussion.

Probably much too farfetched, but could it be that the three shadows are like Christmas Carol's past, present and future. Sandor Clegane could be the present danger/threat, for he is searching for Nymeria/Micah. If the second shadow would be Jaime, it he could be mean to be the past danger, pushing Bran out. Ilyn Payne then is the the future threat: the one who kills Ned.

I don't really feel the need to defend this, for it is rather silly, but this way you have a link between the shadows and the Starks.

I like this idea but would like to tweak it a bit. The first two are Sandor and Jamie; both who endangered the Stark children at one time and then later worked to protect some of them (Sandor-Sansa and Arya, Jamie- Sansa)

I also feel the vision describes Gregor Clegane becoming Robert Strong. Will he directly threaten one of the Starks in the future? Will the two who began as threats work again to protect a Stark?

I also agree with Lost Melinbonean, these are vision controlled by Bloodraven, and so the shadows don't have to represent the Trident.

[Lazy Dragon]

Just teasing... but one possibility is the shadows are actually the future of the Starks there. The hound face is Ayra/Nymeria. The sunny armor is Sansa's golden cell in KL. And the empty bloody stone armor is Ned death.

[Voice]

Thanks OP for posting this. I have just re-read this part for the 4th time and stayed up late trying to figure out who the shadows represent. I very much agree that they are being shown in real time to Bran through Bloodraven. The dangers at the Trident to the Starks were so overwhelming that it's tough to place them all. I have enjoyed reading all the ideas listed and I'll want to add my own.

Shadow 1 - Sandor Clegane. He kills Mycah thereby creating a hatred in Arya that has a lasting effect. Might have hurt Arya if he had found her before Jory. I'd say he was an immediate threat.

Shadow 2 - I feel this represents Joffrey. The happenings at the Trident changed everything in Joff's eyes. He does not forgive and he harbored great hatred for Ned and all things Stark related. As we later learn it was Joff (suposedly) that hired Bran's assasin. He is a definate threat.

Shadow 3 - This one stumps me. I wanted it to be LF but he was not there physically. However, it was his doings that made Ned determined to go to KL and solve John Arryn's death. The distrust between Starks and Lannisters was established with Lisa's letter to Catelyn. He did pose a huge threat that the Starks were very unaware of. So in a way his shadow loomed over affairs at the Trident. OK, I just talked myself into it. I still beleive it was LF. My second guess would be Iilyn Payne.

I like the way you explained his muderous past Kings justice or no. The man is a threat.

I can totally see Joff. And you're right about how the Trident changes him. Nice catch! :cheers:

Through Sansa's eyes he would have been beautiful, but I don't know about Bran's. I kinda like Cersei more. To be honest, I'm liking Cersei as Shadow 2 more by the minute. It really makes sense to me, and her ever armored in beauty, femme fatal mystique. But still, having armor in the Vision makes me think it should be a knight.

LF has nothing to do with the Trident, just not feeling it. I wanted it to be him too btw, when I originally read the essay at the Citadel. Very cool image, but when I read the book, he just doesn't fit.

Just teasing... but one possibility is the shadows are actually the future of the Starks there. The hound face is Ayra/Nymeria. The sunny armor is Sansa's golden cell in KL. And the empty bloody stone armor is Ned death.

Eerie possibility, but that would explain the location of the shadows being "all around them" for sure! But then, why would he see them as separate from them instead of being melded into their images somehow?

I just joined this thread with the intention of sharing my impression that Shadow #2 is Cersei, but Maid So Fair beat me to it. :) Remember that she teaches Sansa that "A lady's courtesy is her armor." Sandor and Cersei were both extremely strong influences on Arya and Sansa, and both were there at the Trident when Bran has his vision. Looming ominously over both the Queen and the Hound is Gregor Clegane, the Mountain that Rides, and I don't think the way it's written that he needs to be there at the time, just that he is important to both of their futures.

Happens to me all the time LOL. And yes, good reference with Cersei. I'm not sure how much Arya was influenced by the Hound or Cersei however. And the way it is written, you would have everything and everyone being where Bran identifies them, except for Shadow 3.

Sorry but for me the sheer quantity of characters in the Vision being where he sees them points to Shadows 2 and 3 being at the Trident, right along with Shadow 1 (the Hound Dog).

[Erryk]

You know, rereading the section again, while I agree that Bran is seeing all the people who matter to him where they are at the moment, I am questioning whether the three shadows necessarily must follow this convention. He sees his father and his sisters, and then he sees them surrounded by shadows. They aren't literal shadows, they are prophetic and ominous visions of their future. The Hound isn't hanging around Ned or Arya or even Sansa at this point. So, I'm not sure we have to limit our speculations to characters that were at the Trident at the time. They are simply characters that are going to have an effect on the Starks (or, perhaps, the Riverlands?).

I think Shadow #1 is obviously The Hound, and Shadow #3 is obviously The Mountain. Shadow #2 is less clear, but I think there's a strong argument for it being either Jaime or Cersei, and possibly even an amalgamation of the two of them. There should be other shadows, too, like Littlefinger and Varys and Renly and so on, but it seems they aren't as important to the vision for whatever reason.

[Voice]

I am questioning whether the three shadows necessarily must follow this convention.

Yet, you don't question that the first shadow does follow this convention, along with the dozen or so other identified characters. It seems the popular vote has decided all of them follow this convention, except for Shadows 2 & 3.

He sees his father and his sisters, and then he sees them surrounded by shadows. They aren't literal shadows, they are prophetic and ominous visions of their future.

Now, if they are prophetic and ominous visions of their future, that rules out the Mountain. The Mountain has nothing to do with their future.

Of course, my hypothesis would rule him out anyway since he isn't at the Trident. But, I think most of us can agree that Bran receiving a Vision of the Mountain serves no purpose.

The Hound isn't hanging around Ned or Arya or even Sansa at this point. So, I'm not sure we have to limit our speculations to characters that were at the Trident at the time.

But he is at the Trident. In fact, while at the Trident, the Hound hunts for Arya, Nymeria, and Mycah (the butcher's boy). He only finds the latter. He rides him down and nearly cuts him in half, a boy of 13. Arya is holding secrets in her heart, guilt for the boy, and hatred for the Hound and Queen. This is all fits quite nicely with Shadow 1 being at the Trident where Bran sees him.

Shadows 2 & 3 must also be there. I am open to interpretations, and opposing points of view. But it strains credibility (for me anyway) for these Shadows to not belong to people at the Trident, around Bran's family, where he sees them.

They are simply characters that are going to have an effect on the Starks (or, perhaps, the Riverlands?).

"Effect on the Starks" ...rules out the Mountain.

If Bran is having Visions of people that will effect the Riverlands, then sure, why not Gregor? But I ask, Why would Bran need such a Vision? It doesn't make sense.

I think Shadow #1 is obviously The Hound, and Shadow #3 is obviously The Mountain.

Shadow 3 is only obvious as the Mountain if we take into consideration events that take place in ASOS and AFFC - events that have nothing to do with Bran, Ned, Arya, Sansa, or the Trident.

Shadow #2 is less clear, but I think there's a strong argument for it being either Jaime or Cersei, and possibly even an amalgamation of the two of them.

I see a strong argument for Cersei. I really do. He already saw Jaime, it's his golden face and he hears him saying the things I do for love. Whenever he sees Jaime it scares him. The 3 Eyed Crow doesn't want that, because that memory won't help him fly. After all, that is the memory of him being pushed and starting to fall.

So he listens to the 3EC, Bran puts Jaime out of his mind, and the 3EC shows him these other visions... again, only after he puts Jaime out of mind. So it can't be Jaime he sees at the Trident. That shadow 1. has no face, 2. doesn't say the things I do for love, and 3. is not relevant to Bran's future. Jaime is Bran's past. He is no longer a threat for the future.

Spoiler alert: Jaime never does anything, ever again, to Bran...

There should be other shadows, too, like Littlefinger and Varys and Renly and so on, but it seems they aren't as important to the vision for whatever reason.

Exactly. Many commenters feel this way. They think Bran needs to see Littlefinger's tricks, Varys' spies, Oberyn's armor, and the Mountain's might. But he doesn't. He need to learn how to fly. And quick!

Bran's vision is not to inform him of the political landscape of King's Landing, Tyrion's trial by combat, Gregor's raping and pillaging in the Riverlands... it is to tell him why he must learn to fly, and live. All of the people in the vision are relevant to Bran's life and destiny. If you can fit the Mountain into that niche, I'm all ears.

Again, they are literally all where he sees them, when he sees them there... except for the last shadow of course, in your opinion. See why that doesn't fit?

[Erryk]

Yet, you don't question that the first shadow does follow this convention, along with the dozen or so other identified characters.

Well, yes, I do question whether the first shadow follows this convention. The shadows, I think, are not necessarily bound to the location that Bran sees them surrounding his family. They are ominous visions of the future, and not necessarily tied to Ned, Arya, or Sansa. Or Bran, Catelyn, Robb, or Rickon.

It seems the popular vote has decided all of them follow this convention, except for Shadows 2 & 3.

You are saying that because it seems like lots of readers agree that the first shadow is The Hound, and because The Hound is at The Trident, the shadows must all depict characters who are at The Trident? I'm not sure that follows. I think reader consensus would also agree that the third shadow mentioned describes Gregor Clegane, and The Mountain is not at The Trident, so therefore the shadows do not depict characters at The Trident.

Now, if they are prophetic and ominous visions of their future, that rules out the Mountain. The Mountain has nothing to do with their future.

How do you know? For one thing, it seems to me that The Mountain looms largely over both Sandor Clegane and Queen Cersei in the events that follow (kind of like the shadow looms over the other two in the vision). It is Gregor's "outlaw" incursions into the Riverlands that force Ned Stark to commit men to war. Gregor's atrocities during the war earn him a place on Arya's death list. And, the ghost of High Heart predicts that Sansa will slay a savage giant in a castle built of snow. (I don't personally think that refers to Gregor, but it could.) I'm just saying, Gregor seems to still be around, so he could still have a part to play in Bran's story, or those of the remaining Starks.

Of course, my hypothesis would rule him out anyway since he isn't at the Trident. But, I think most of us can agree that Bran receiving a Vision of the Mountain serves no purpose.

None of these visions served any purpose, that I can see. What purpose does Bran seeing a vision of The Hound lurking around Ned, Sansa, and Arya serve? Or Catelyn on a boat, or Jon training at the wall? The three-eyed crow is simply showing Bran what amazing powers he will have once he can "fly." I think Martin is also using this opportunity to ominously show us some of the other characters that will soon appear in the narrative, but I suspect that ultimately they won't have any effect on Bran.

[Mithras]

All the visions BR showed Bran are about the future of his family. Arya's and Sansa's fates are tied together along with Jaime/Sandor and UnGregor.

I think after LF tries to rape Sansa and is slain by her, Sansa will be taken to KL. There will be a rescue mission to save her from KL where Cersei keeps her as a hostage. The mission will include Sandor, Arya, Brienne, Pod and Jon. Jaime will help them escape. Sandor will slay UnGregor and Arya will lead them through the secret passages.

[The Sleeper]

I have to disagree with your basic premise. There is both a literal and a symbolic dimension to the vision for instance Catelyn and ser Rodrick sailed both into a literal storm and into the political upheaval that was coming. Ned pleaded with the king on numerous occasions. And you can say that the images about Sansa and Arya forshadows their entire arcs. As for the dragons beneath the sunrise, this is a straight forward prophecy. Dany's dragon eggs came form Asshai and they were stiring, that is coming to life beneathe the sunrise, that is the future. This vision was an overview of the entire series.

As for the third shadow I believe it reffers to Harrenhal. It's gigantic, made of stone and it is cursed having seen atrocities. The fact that it is empty refers to the fact that no house has been able to hold on to it and such does not really belong to nobody. It can be said to hang like a shadow over Jaime's life as he was sworn to the Kingsguard there. He was also on the road to it, when he lost his hand and this was where he made his confession to Brienne. It can also been said that Arya as she is today was born in Harrenhal, forever changed by the horrors she witnessed there.

I am by no means certain of this, but it appaears to me the most likely interpreation. So far the Hound and Sansa have only been peripherally linked to Harrenhal. The Mountain briefly held it and LF who now has custody of Sansa has been named lord of Harrenhal. Since I don't think we are done with Harrenhal as a location, I think there is a good chance that their lives will take significant turns there.

[LongRider]

As for the third shadow I believe it reffers to Harrenhal. It's gigantic, made of stone and it is cursed having seen atrocities. The fact that it is empty refers to the fact that no house has been able to hold on to it and such does not really belong to nobody. It can be said to hang like a shadow over Jaime's life as he was sworn to the Kingsguard there. He was also on the road to it, when he lost his hand and this was where he made his confession to Brienne. It can also been said that Arya as she is today was born in Harrenhal, forever changed by the horrors she witnessed there.

I am by no means certain of this, but it appaears to me the most likely interpreation. So far the Hound and Sansa have only been peripherally linked to Harrenhal. The Mountain briefly held it and LF who now has custody of Sansa has been named lord of Harrenhal. Since I don't think we are done with Harrenhal as a location, I think there is a good chance that their lives will take significant turns there.

Now that is "out of the box" thinking! :cool4: