Three Shadows in Bran's Vision

[Voice]

From Bran's POV none could be more threatening than the golden man who chucked him out the window.

But that already happened... it's no longer a threat.

[Lost Melnibonean]

But that already happened... it's no longer a threat.

The falling, Bran thought, and the golden man, the queen's brother, he scares me too, but mostly the falling.

Bran IV, Clash

Cley laughed. "Why not? Everyone else is a king or prince these days. Did Stannis write Winterfell as well?"

"Stannis? I don't know."

"He's a king now too," Cley confided. "He says Queen Cersei bedded her brother, so Joffrey is a bastard."

"Joffrey the Illborn," one of the Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."

"Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens."

For a moment Bran felt as though he could not breathe. A giant hand was crushing his chest. He felt as though he was falling, and clutched desperately at Dancer's reins.

His terror must have shown on his face. "Bran?" Cley Cerwyn said. "Are you unwell? It's only another king."

"Robb will beat him too." He turned Dancer's head toward the stables, oblivious to the puzzled stares the Cerwyns gave him. His blood was roaring in his ears, and had he not been strapped onto his saddle he might well have fallen.

That night Bran prayed to his father's gods for dreamless sleep. If the gods heard, they mocked his hopes, for the nightmare they sent was worse than any wolf dream.

"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. What he saw made him gasp in fear. He was clinging to a tower miles high, and his fingers were slipping, nails scrabbling at the stone, his legs dragging him down, stupid useless dead legs. "Help me!" he cried. A golden man appeared in the sky above him and pulled him up. "The things I do for love," he murmured softly as he tossed him out kicking into empty air.

Bran II, Clash

[Dorian Martell]

The only way the Jamie/sandor/gregor shadow makes sense to me is if it foreshadows a Jamie and Sandor buddy battle against Bob S.

[Mithras]

The only way the Jamie/sandor/gregor shadow makes sense to me is if it foreshadows a Jamie and Sandor buddy battle against Bob S.

“I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.”

Little bird.

Elder Brother says that the Hound is dead. Sandor is cleansing himself from the hatred and fear that filled him before. He would not come back to fight with Gregor for revenge. The only way to drive him from the Quiet Isle is Sansa being in a grave danger. I think Sansa will slay LF when he tries to rape her and then run from the Vale. She will trust Shadrich and the other Hedge Knights to take her back to White Harbour. But they will betray her and sell her to Cersei. Cersei will keep her as a prisoner and insurance. As long as she keeps her alive, Stannis cannot lead the Northmen to attack the KL. Nor Jon can attack the KL if he comes with force to the South after the Others are dealt with.

For now, let me say that the people to be involved in Saving Sansa Mission are: Arya, Pod, Brienne, Jaime, Sandor and probably Jon. I expect Pod to kill another KG (the one guilty of false testimony against Tyrion, namely Osmund). Arya will cross Ser Meryn's name from her list. And Sandor will cross UnGregor's name. I also expect Arya to fatally stab Cersei but she might survive a couple of days and Jaime will finish her.

[Voice]

The only way the Jamie/sandor/gregor shadow makes sense to me is if it foreshadows a Jamie and Sandor buddy battle against Bob S.

This.

I'm in the same boat. Jamie makes the least sense to me of all the candidates.

Bran IV, Clash

Bran II, Clash

Who is your Shadow #3, if Jaime is your #2? And yes, yes, I know Jaime is described as golden. A golden man, a golden face, blah blah blah. Shadow number 2 is armored like the sun, beautiful and golden - it's talking about the shadow's armor, not his facial features. And before you go on a Jaime has golden armor rant, remember this isn't a vision of actual physical appearances.

[edd tollett:(]

I like this theory. I always had trouble with the third shadow the mountain fits the description but not the time line like you said. But I still think Jamie's the 2nd shadow. We know later that Arya's life was danger if Jamie was the one to find her

[The Kinkslayer]

I don't think that everything in Bran's vision is happening at the same time, for one the trees don't perceive time as humans do according to Bloodraven and [Jon's] skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him fits with him being dead post ADWD.

[Adara]

I don't think that everything in Bran's vision is happening at the same time, for one the trees don't perceive time as humans do according to Bloodraven and [Jon's] skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him fits with him being dead post ADWD.

"Oh, you think he's dead, do you?"

[Voice]

I like this theory. I always had trouble with the third shadow the mountain fits the description but not the time line like you said. But I still think Jamie's the 2nd shadow. We know later that Arya's life was danger if Jamie was the one to find her

Good point, but I still don't see Jaime as Shadow 2. Bran already saw Jaime in the vision just before the Shadows:

A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran's shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

But what of the contrast?

With Jaime, it is always his face that appears. His face, shining with light. His face, golden as ever.

With Shadow #2, His is the only face not described. Shadow 1 has the head of a Hound. Shadow 3 has darkness and thick black blood behind his visor.

Isn't it strange then, if Shadow 2 is the golden lion of the rock, that Bran wouldn't notice his face at all? Whenever Bran has a dream or memory of Jaime, he always sees his face. Shadow 2 is not the majestic golden haired lion, he is someone whose armor exudes brilliance. Sounds like someone bolder than the one-handed sister-fucker to me. :lol:

I don't think that everything in Bran's vision is happening at the same time

But if you read the whole passage, and the chapters leading up to it, everything is happening at the same time, in real time. Cat is on that galley, at that very moment. Robb has live steel. Hodor is on his way to Mikken's. His father is pleading with the king, Sansa is crying herself to sleep because Ned is going to kill Lady at the king's command, and Arya is watching in silence...the Red Comet is coming with dragons.

for one the trees don't perceive time as humans do according to Bloodraven

True, and while I agree Bran sees both the present incarnation of everyone in addition to their true intentions/essence/future, he is not connected to the Weirnet just yet.

and [Jon's] skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him fits with him being dead post ADWD.

Jon is at the Wall...and it does fit with him dying in ADWD, but he isn't dead yet, and Bran doesn't see him as being dead in this vision.

Though the prophetic element is obviously apparent, Bran is still seeing Jon as he exists at that moment -- and the memory of warmth that is fleeing from him also fits in a metaphorical sense with the present realization that the NW is not entirely made of men like Benjen. Jon realizes his family is lost to him, and that his "father" let him go despite knowing the NW was not the noblest of callings.

[igrewupinKL]

Really great OP, i think you've sold me on it. Joffrey may have given the order to kill Ned, but Ilyn Payne swung the sword without question. Bran would perceive Payne as being filled with 'black blood' because of all the killing he's done very personal to him. It could also be a reference to his tongue being cut out, thus his mouth being filled with blood, which has now become old or 'black' with no bitterness over it thus being like 'stone'.

Jon's part is more metaphorical i think. At this point he felt betrayed by Ned and his family for thinking the NW was full of honourable men like his uncle and upset that Ned would send him to this place.

Ilyn Payne could be perceived as the 'giant' of the three, because out of barristan and the hound he was the only one to stay loyal to the lannisters, and thus in that way he was the biggest threat at the time.

I actually really like he idea of shadow 2 being Barristan. Golden armour for a true honorable night, to a boy like Bran it would make sense.

[Danelle]

The only way the Jamie/sandor/gregor shadow makes sense to me is if it foreshadows a Jamie and Sandor buddy battle against Bob S.

I think that is the main reason why people consider Jaime to be part of Bran's vision.

Currently Jaime has decided to follow Brienne, and -as far as he is concerned-they are going to rescue Sansa.

Sandor is likely the Gravedigger that Brienne met.

In that case you have two people from the vision that are currently in the same area in the Riverlands.

Besides Jaime has been displeased by Cersei's development and her involvement with Quyburn was the final straw.

Him going against his sister and her champion would hardly be surprising.

And let us not forget that Gregor's blood is described as black in the books.

Be that as it may, his veins have turned black from head to heel, his water is clouded with pus, and the venom has eaten a hole in his side as large as my fist. It is a wonder that the man is still alive, if truth be told.

The veins in his arms are turning black. When I leeched him, all the leeches died.

Ned Stark could not recall ever speaking to the man, though Gregor had ridden with them during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, one knight among thousands. He watched him with disquiet. Ned seldom put much stock in gossip, but the things said of Ser Gregor were more than ominous. He was soon to be married for the third time, and one heard dark whisperings about the deaths of his first two wives. It was said that his keep was a grim place where servants disappeared unaccountably and even the dogs were afraid to enter the hall. And there had been a sister who had died young under queer circumstances, and the fire that had disfigured his brother, and the hunting accident that had killed their father. Gregor had inherited the keep, the gold, and the family estates. His younger brother Sandor had left the same day to take service with the Lannisters as a sworn sword, and it was said that he had never returned, not even to visit.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This.

I'm in the same boat. Jamie makes the least sense to me of all the candidates.

Who is your Shadow #3, if Jaime is your #2? And yes, yes, I know Jaime is described as golden. A golden man, a golden face, blah blah blah. Shadow number 2 is armored like the sun, beautiful and golden - it's talking about the shadow's armor, not his facial features. And before you go on a Jaime has golden armor rant, remember this isn't a vision of actual physical appearances.

I don't usually (ever?) rant. :) My #3 is Petyr...

Although Littlefinger was a small man who adopted the mockingbird as his sigil, the sigil of his house was the stone head of the Titan of Braavos, and Littlefinger soon proved to be a much graver threat to Brans father and sisters than either the Hound or the Kingslayer, both of whom eventually attempted to aid the Stark girls. And when the Hound and the Kingslayer faced each other during the Hands tourney Littlefinger sat above them in the viewing stands wagering on the outcome.

Most important though the third shadow envisioned by Bran was faceless. When Ned first met Littlefinger he told him in jest that he was leading him to the dungeons to slit his throat and seal his corpse behind a wall. Mayhaps he was. Mayhaps he expected Lord Eddard to be outmaneuvered by the Lannisters (with his help of course) and end up disgraced and in the dungeons where a Faceless Man would assassinate him and seal his corpse behind a wall, never to return to the crypts at Winterfell.

Here's the rest of my theory...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89914-littlefinger-hired-a-faceless-man-to-kill-ned/

[LongRider]

From Bran's POV none could be more threatening than the golden man who chucked him out the window. In any event, these are not threats from Bran's POV. The visions are inspired by Bloodraven.

Really good point here.

[Voice]

Really great OP, i think you've sold me on it. Joffrey may have given the order to kill Ned, but Ilyn Payne swung the sword without question. Bran would perceive Payne as being filled with 'black blood' because of all the killing he's done very personal to him. It could also be a reference to his tongue being cut out, thus his mouth being filled with blood, which has now become old or 'black' with no bitterness over it thus being like 'stone'.

Jon's part is more metaphorical i think. At this point he felt betrayed by Ned and his family for thinking the NW was full of honourable men like his uncle and upset that Ned would send him to this place.

Ilyn Payne could be perceived as the 'giant' of the three, because out of barristan and the hound he was the only one to stay loyal to the lannisters, and thus in that way he was the biggest threat at the time.

I actually really like he idea of shadow 2 being Barristan. Golden armour for a true honorable night, to a boy like Bran it would make sense.

Cool! Debate is good, but it's great to not have to with someone :)

I think that is the main reason why people consider Jaime to be part of Bran's vision.

Currently Jaime has decided to follow Brienne, and -as far as he is concerned-they are going to rescue Sansa.

Sandor is likely the Gravedigger that Brienne met.

In that case you have two people from the vision that are currently in the same area in the Riverlands.

Besides Jaime has been displeased by Cersei's development and her involvement with Quyburn was the final straw.

Him going against his sister and her champion would hardly be surprising.

And let us not forget that Gregor's blood is described as black in the books.

Meh, a lot of people's blood is described as black in the books.

I for one would be very surprised if Jaime takes on Robert Strong. He's pretty bad with a sword nowadays and I think he values his life more than that. I think it would be weak writing to have him defeat UnGregor by chucking his golden hand at his head. And if Jaime fell to his sister's champion in her trial by combat, how would he ever fulfill Maggy's prophecy and strangle Cersei? Though honestly, I think Tommen makes for a better Valonqar ;)

I don't usually (ever?) rant. :) My #3 is Petyr...

Although Littlefinger was a small man who adopted the mockingbird as his sigil, the sigil of his house was the stone head of the Titan of Braavos, and Littlefinger soon proved to be a much graver threat to Brans father and sisters than either the Hound or the Kingslayer, both of whom eventually attempted to aid the Stark girls. And when the Hound and the Kingslayer faced each other during the Hands tourney Littlefinger sat above them in the viewing stands wagering on the outcome.

One could make the argument that Ned was his own grave threat. He confronted Cersei about twincest all on his own. He abandoned Renly's military support, all on his own. Hell, even going to KL in the first place - his call (though I blame Cat/Luwin for changing his mind and accepting the handship).

Most important though the third shadow envisioned by Bran was faceless. When Ned first met Littlefinger he told him in jest that he was leading him to the dungeons to slit his throat and seal his corpse behind a wall. Mayhaps he was. Mayhaps he expected Lord Eddard to be outmaneuvered by the Lannisters (with his help of course) and end up disgraced and in the dungeons where a Faceless Man would assassinate him and seal his corpse behind a wall, never to return to the crypts at Winterfell.

Was it faceless? Or was it's face simply darkness and thick black blood. A face is usually what lies behind a visor ;) in this Shadow's case, his head is thick black blood. Congealed and dark. That's how I picture him anyway. Pleasant thoughts, LOL.

No. The only Shadow to truly be faceless, as in no face at all is described, is Shadow 2 -- who you would have us believe is Jaime.

As far as actual, Faceless Men go... 1) If LF hired one he could hardly dictate the manner of death; 2) I cannot envision a FM failing in his task when Ned is down in the dungeons for a loooong time. I will check out your theory though, and I thank you for adding to the debate of mine.

Really good point here.

Was it? LOL. Would you have us believe BR sees the Hound, Jaime Lannister, and LF as threats!? :bang:

[Dorian Martell]

“I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.”

Little bird.

Elder Brother says that the Hound is dead. Sandor is cleansing himself from the hatred and fear that filled him before. He would not come back to fight with Gregor for revenge. The only way to drive him from the Quiet Isle is Sansa being in a grave danger. I think Sansa will slay LF when he tries to rape her and then run from the Vale. She will trust Shadrich and the other Hedge Knights to take her back to White Harbour. But they will betray her and sell her to Cersei. Cersei will keep her as a prisoner and insurance. As long as she keeps her alive, Stannis cannot lead the Northmen to attack the KL. Nor Jon can attack the KL if he comes with force to the South after the Others are dealt with.

For now, let me say that the people to be involved in Saving Sansa Mission are: Arya, Pod, Brienne, Jaime, Sandor and probably Jon. I expect Pod to kill another KG (the one guilty of false testimony against Tyrion, namely Osmund). Arya will cross Ser Meryn's name from her list. And Sandor will cross UnGregor's name. I also expect Arya to fatally stab Cersei but she might survive a couple of days and Jaime will finish her.

This.

I'm in the same boat. Jamie makes the least sense to me of all the candidates.

Who is your Shadow #3, if Jaime is your #2? And yes, yes, I know Jaime is described as golden. A golden man, a golden face, blah blah blah. Shadow number 2 is armored like the sun, beautiful and golden - it's talking about the shadow's armor, not his facial features. And before you go on a Jaime has golden armor rant, remember this isn't a vision of actual physical appearances.

I think that is the main reason why people consider Jaime to be part of Bran's vision.

Currently Jaime has decided to follow Brienne, and -as far as he is concerned-they are going to rescue Sansa.

Sandor is likely the Gravedigger that Brienne met.

In that case you have two people from the vision that are currently in the same area in the Riverlands.

Besides Jaime has been displeased by Cersei's development and her involvement with Quyburn was the final straw.

Him going against his sister and her champion would hardly be surprising.

And let us not forget that Gregor's blood is described as black in the books.

I don't think sandor will leave the quiet Isle, if he is even there. Jamie is mentioned in several of Bran's visions. That is why I think the shadows are Gregor and Oberyn. If Sandor is alive, his arc is done. He shed his hound persona and will spent the next two decades in silent contemplation working to cleanse his soul of his many, many sins

[Voice]

I don't think sandor will leave the quiet Isle, if he is even there. Jamie is mentioned in several of Bran's visions. That is why I think the shadows are Gregor and Oberyn. If Sandor is alive, his arc is done. He shed his hound persona and will spent the next two decades in silent contemplation working to cleanse his soul of his many, many sins

Yeah Sandor's done either way, dead or alive, with KL.

I still think Bran is seeing actual events and people at each location in real time.

Of all the things he is seeing at their respective locations (people in Winterfell, who are at WF... people in the Bite who are in the Bite... etc) why would only two of the three Shadows at the Trident, not really be at the Trident???

So, I disagree with Oberyn and Gregor, but I definitely see a better case to be made for those two being Shadows 2 & 3 over Jaime and LF.

Hey, at least we all agree on the Hound right? LOL

[Mithras]

I don't think sandor will leave the quiet Isle, if he is even there. Jamie is mentioned in several of Bran's visions. That is why I think the shadows are Gregor and Oberyn. If Sandor is alive, his arc is done. He shed his hound persona and will spent the next two decades in silent contemplation working to cleanse his soul of his many, many sins

I don't think GRRM can leave him like this. He is definitely alive and it would be pointless to keep him alive if he will stay in the Quiet Isle forever.

[Dorian Martell]

Yeah Sandor's done either way, dead or alive, with KL.

I still think Bran is seeing actual events and people at each location in real time.

Of all the things he is seeing at their respective locations (people in Winterfell, who are at WF... people in the Bite who are in the Bite... etc) why would only two of the three Shadows at the Trident, not really be at the Trident???

So, I disagree with Oberyn and Gregor, but I definitely see a better case to be made for those two being Shadows 2 & 3 over Jaime and LF.

So who was at the trident that would fit the stone giant?

I don't think GRRM can leave him like this. He is definitely alive and it would be pointless to keep him alive if he will stay in the Quiet Isle forever.

It is not definite It wasn't pointless. It was an end to a major character

[Voice]

So who was at the trident that would fit the stone giant?

See OP

And, it is not a stone giant. The third Shadow "loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Armor made of stone is not the same thing as being a stone giant.

Bran is seeing the inner truth of this individual. He looms as a giant because he will behead Bran's father. His armor is made of stone because he is cold, silent, and hard. Behind the visor = his face = darkness and thick black blood -- because he is the executioner and enjoys the act of murder.

[Dorian Martell]

I can see why you think it is Illyn but as an executioner, he does not commit murder. He is the King's Justice. He is cold, silent and hard, but so are a number of characters. Things other than stone are Cold, silent and hard too. When you combine this with the description of a dying gregor with black blood and poison thickened by magic, IMO it can only mean GC+OM=RS.