(BOOK SPOILERS) Discussing Sansa XI: Lies and Arbor Gold

[Colonel Green]

But she thinks she knows Baelish weakness (and she might be right), while she knows little to nothing about Lord Royce, Lady Waynwood and Lord Filler.

The main issue I have with that is that the plan still hinges completely on the Royce, Waynwood and Corbray being all "woo, Team Stark!". If they aren't, the whole thing goes south pretty quickly.

[Skore]

The main issue I have with that is that the plan still hinges completely on the Royce, Waynwood and Corbray being all "woo, Team Stark!". If they aren't, the whole thing goes south pretty quickly.

Well they aren't behind the "damn Lannisters" and when questioning Petyr on who to support their first (only) option was Robb Stark, even though the Vale was also recent friends to the Baratheons.

They also looked a bit abashed when reminded of Catelyn's plea for help that Lysa denied

I'm also conscious of Myranda's less than sincere comment to Sansa about Lysa being the soul of wisdom (non-verbatim) when Sansa discussed Lysa keeping the Vale out of the War of 5 Kings though that's a book conversation that probably won't occur in the show.

[jons nissa]

Yes. While the development feels really rapid, the costume change and her sudden burst of manipulative ability is a culmination of things. (im going to go by the show here cuz in the books, it was difficult to say whether or not Sansa paid that kind of attention. She likely did but didnt acknowledge it in an obvious manner. Anyway..)

Cersei's "worldly wisdom" on the ways of being a lady in power. Sansa originally wanted to be like Cersei, the good queen. But she found out Cersei is a villain and horrible. She didnt want to be like Cersei. However, Sansa acknowledges Cersei's point about weaponizing her womanness. Sansa also comes to the conclusion that "I will make them love me."

The Hound. His showing Sansa that knighthood is not as noble as it seems helped her see that things are never what they seem. "Save yourself the trouble and tell them what they want to hear."

Margaery. Sansa idolized Marg. Marg was the figure she could look up to and see as an older sister. Margaery had her own brand of wisdom and showed how to make people have high opinions of someone. Part of Sansa's Alayne costume is modeled a bit after Marg's more bold outfits.

Even Shae had a hand in Sansa's development. Shae attempts to clue Sansa in on LF's intentions. Sansa ultimately dismissed this, but she didnt ignore this piece of advice. Shae was right, but she wasnt right about LF's full intent. Hanging in the back of Sansa's mind while on that ship to the Vale, was Shae's weedy voice going "All men want one thing."

Finally, Littlefinger himself. "Everyone here is a liar and all of them, better than you." This line resonates with her so strongly, she uses it in a weaponized form. "

this. sansa has been learning from everyone and most of us suspected sansa's arc would take a dark turn in the next book. no one expects her to be cersei v. 2.0 but the greyness was definitely anticipated by many readers.

The main issue I have with that is that the plan still hinges completely on the Royce, Waynwood and Corbray being all "woo, Team Stark!". If they aren't, the whole thing goes south pretty quickly.

which is exactly how so many littlefinger plans work.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I was always sure that Sansa would make it to the end. However, after this episode, I am not so sure anymore. I mean, yes, Littlefinger wants Sansa, but he is not stupid. I have the feeling that she vastly underestimates Littlefinger and his possibilities, and "what he wants". She doesn't really know what he wants. Having Sansa is not his total endgame, I just cannot believe that. That scene when she walks off the stairs, all being badass in black, and seeing how Littlefinger was watching her, that smile she gave him, that look in her eye like "I know what you want, so here it is" just had me thinking about what will happen next. I have the feeling that this won't end as well as I thought before.

[Florina Laufeyson]

this. sansa has been learning from everyone and most of us suspected sansa's arc would take a dark turn in the next book. no one expects her to be cersei v. 2.0 but the greyness was definitely anticipated by many readers.

which is exactly how so many littlefinger plans work.

Sansa's greyness will be a different shade than what we are used to. I feel that her motives will be all Stark and that will keep people rooting for her. But her methods will be darker and more nefarious.

[jons nissa]

I was always sure that Sansa would make it to the end. However, after this episode, I am not so sure anymore. I mean, yes, Littlefinger wants Sansa, but he is not stupid. I have the feeling that she vastly understates Littlefinger and his possibilities, and "what he wants". She doesn't really know what he wants. Having Sansa is not his total endgame, I just cannot believe that. That scene when she walks off the stairs, all being badass in black, and seeing how Littlefinger was watching her, that smile she gave him, that look in her eye like "I know what you want, so here it is" just had me thinking about what will happen next. I have the feeling that this won't end as well as I thought before.

of course it's not his endgame. it's not even his endgame for sansa! but it is what he wants from her and she will be able to manipulate him because of this desire for her much more than she will because of his desire for power or to gain winterfell, both of which he also wants. it is his desire for her that she can directly and immediately manipulate.

Sansa's greyness will be a different shade than what we are used to. I feel that her motives will be all Stark and that will keep people rooting for her. But her methods will be darker and more nefarious.

you hope. frankly, i think she'll hit a moral horizon suitable for her and her arc before rebounding, just as we've seen with other characters. so no, i don't think she'll be all stark all the time. bran hasn't been, arya hasn't been and jon hasn't been. i don't see why sansa will be different.

[Colonel Green]

so no, i don't think she'll be all stark all the time. bran hasn't been

I'd agree about the others, but Bran has been pretty straightforward to date.

[jons nissa]

I'd agree about the others, but Bran has been pretty straightforward to date.

his moral horizon is warging hodor which is all about his desires, not a stark motive. especially since he knows how much it disturbs and frightens hodor when he does it.

[House Mosse]

Royce, Waynwood and Corbray were in the room, plus like one random guard, I think. The way they left things here, I think the implication is that they'll all keep their mouths shut.

To nitpick the logic here, Sansa sticks with Littlefinger because he's the devil she knows; okay, that's the same as the book. But the revised version of the plan hinges completely on Royce and co. being all "woo, Team Stark!", so how is that any less reliant on others?

It does rely on that, unless they are going to bring other elements of the Sansa/Little Finger story forwards, as yet unseen in the books...

[House Mosse]

The main issue I have with that is that the plan still hinges completely on the Royce, Waynwood and Corbray being all "woo, Team Stark!". If they aren't, the whole thing goes south pretty quickly.

Maybe it will go south pretty quickly - won't that be fun?!!!

[juanml82]

I was always sure that Sansa would make it to the end. However, after this episode, I am not so sure anymore. I mean, yes, Littlefinger wants Sansa, but he is not stupid. I have the feeling that she vastly underestimates Littlefinger and his possibilities, and "what he wants". She doesn't really know what he wants. Having Sansa is not his total endgame, I just cannot believe that. That scene when she walks off the stairs, all being badass in black, and seeing how Littlefinger was watching her, that smile she gave him, that look in her eye like "I know what you want, so here it is" just had me thinking about what will happen next. I have the feeling that this won't end as well as I thought before.

I sort of think the opposite. Sansa is shaping into a grey, or outright evil, character. So if she dies because of it, her death would look like moralism. Kind of how in Disney type of movies, a bad guy may atone for his sins, but still die nonetheless.

And since I think this is going in the opposite way, I'm more inclined to think that she'll survive.

his moral horizon is warging hodor so which is all about his desires, not a stark motive. especially since he knows how much it disturbs and frightens hodor when he does it.

Plus casual cannibalism to survive starvation

[adiman83]

his moral horizon is warging hodor so which is all about his desires, not a stark motive. especially since he knows how much it disturbs and frightens hodor when he does it.

Didn't they all (Stark kids) lost their Stark motives nd went "native" with whatever group they were hanging out with? So I dont see why Sansa wouldn't do the same and in the long run fight for herself not for House Stark. Getting revenge for the destruction of her house might be a goal but not he main one in the end.

Maybe it will go south pretty quickly - won't that be fun?!!!

It might not go that much south because Royce, Waynwood and Cobray were manipulated even worse than LF was. Even if does go south she still gains something from it. If those three manage to see through her deception Sansa's safe because she's an asset and also the key to the North as Robb Stark's. But, in the same time, if the whole plan blows up in their faces, Lf's pretty much done ... he's getting a first class ticket on Moon Door Airways and she still manages to eliminate one of her father's betrayers.

[juanml82]

Didn't they all (Stark kids) lost their Stark motives nd went "native" with whatever group they were hanging out with? So I dont see why Sansa wouldn't do the same and in the long run fight for herself not for House Stark. Getting revenge for the destruction of her house might be a goal but not he main one in the end.

It might not go that much south because Royce, Waynwood and Cobray were manipulated even worse than LF was. Even if does go south she still gains something from it. If those three manage to see through her deception Sansa's safe because she's an asset and also the key to the North as Robb Stark's. But, in the same time, if the whole plan blows up in their faces, Lf's pretty much done ... he's getting a first class ticket on Moon Door Airways and she still manages to eliminate one of her father's betrayers.

Remember, she doesn't know LF was one of her father's betrayers.

[jons nissa]

Didn't they all (Stark kids) lost their Stark motives nd went "native" with whatever group they were hanging out with? So I dont see why Sansa wouldn't do the same and in the long run fight for herself not for House Stark. Getting revenge for the destruction of her house might be a goal but not he main one in the end.

it does look like they are immersing themselves in their "lessons" and will probably continue to do so in book 6 but i suspect they will rebound back to the stark moral center a bit by the end of the series. not completely, but a bit. they will always be ned and cat's kid's but stronger, better, smarter, more ruthless, etc. than their parents ever were as a result of their mentors teachings which will advance house stark far more than ned or cat could have ever dreamed.

[Facebookless Man]

Of course it goes south.

The idea that Sansa would suddenly get off her ass, make all the right moves, and become a powerful and influent player without ever failing or compromising her supposedly pristine morality... that was dumb long before this episode aired.

[shadowfire]

I'm not sure backing him against the Vale Lords is particularly smart. She knows he is a dangerous guy and after the kissing/elimination of Lysa it is at least likely that hisromantic advances could escalate. But again she does not know anything about the Vale Lords - they will not necessarily protect her against Lannisters or LF or may even sell her out. It was a big risk for her to take to reveal her identity to strangers - I don't think she would have done it unless a) she thought it would procure more support for war against the crown in the Vale (unlikely as they are loyal to Robin, not Starks. But I can see how LF would be useful to gather support) or it would give her some protection against LF's advances (also strange considering she could have eliminated them/him altogether, though obviously she would be more protected by the Lords as a Stark than as some bastard daughter/niece of a Lord the nobles do not like). Again neither one of these possibilities seems compelling enough to trust her identity to strangers she barely knows, risking assassination, betrayal from them or anyone they happen to tell. It's a rational decision but hardly a power play.

Again, I don't get how stoking his lust is a good move. The first time she asks him what he wants on the boat, it seemed like he was already creeping on her (rubbing her arm with a pregnant pause?). Later Lysa is hysterically jealous of her and she lies to her about what he told her. When she asks him a second time what he really wanted/why he killed Joffrey, it seems almost like she is trying to force his hand. The way its been filmed there is no way she is unaware at this point that he is attracted to her. Her forcing the question again seems to deliberately push it out in the open and obviously it works because he kisses her.

Her statement that she knows what he wants (could be a grab for the throne, but is likely herself as well) will also force him to be more bold. The sexy dress and cocky attitude will have the same effect. If she is gambling here - trying to make him desire her so that he will not hurt her and do what she wants while simultaneously avoiding sexual advance from him - it makes little sense to me because he already wants her as a second Cat and is risked a lot to smuggle her and killed Lysa. Her confronting his lust and vamping it up for him makes her more vulnerable IMO.

[Arkash]

It could go south, but it is evident that Royce, Corbray, Waynwood and some notable other Vale Lords truly care for the Stark cause. They knew Ned when he was little and even if they discover that Sansa lies for Littlefinger, she's still important for them.

Damn, it's weird to make speculations on both the books and the show at the same time.

[Ismay73]

actually women have used sex as a tool for centuries and continue to do so. and while it isn't as detailed, sansa is answering the question of what he wants from her which is perfectly in line with his teaching her to find out what someone wants as a means of determining their area of weakness. frankly, the books have been setting up sansa as littlefinger's weakness from the very beginning and that weakness definitely does not occur because he sees her as his partner.

True but will she use sex like Cersei? Giving it up completely? Or Margaery? Dangling the forbidden fruit in front of her target to get what she wants? There's a difference. I would think Sansa's situation is more aligned with Margaery. A young girl being used as a pawn and whose value is weighed by her inheritance and maidenhead. Cersei's situation and stage in life, although again being forced into marriage, is vastly different, requiring different strategy.

[House Mosse]

I'm not sure backing him against the Vale Lords is particularly smart. She knows he is a dangerous guy and after the kissing/elimination of Lysa it is at least likely that hisromantic advances could escalate. But again she does not know anything about the Vale Lords - they will not necessarily protect her against Lannisters or LF or may even sell her out. It was a big risk for her to take to reveal her identity to strangers - I don't think she would have done it unless a) she thought it would procure more support for war against the crown in the Vale (unlikely as they are loyal to Robin, not Starks. But I can see how LF would be useful to gather support) or it would give her some protection against LF's advances (also strange considering she could have eliminated them/him altogether, though obviously she would be more protected by the Lords as a Stark than as some bastard daughter/niece of a Lord the nobles do not like). Again neither one of these possibilities seems compelling enough to trust her identity to strangers she barely knows, risking assassination, betrayal from them or anyone they happen to tell. It's a rational decision but hardly a power play.

Again, I don't get how stoking his lust is a good move. The first time she asks him what he wants on the boat, it seemed like he was already creeping on her (rubbing her arm with a pregnant pause?). Later Lysa is hysterically jealous of her and she lies to her about what he told her. When she asks him a second time what he really wanted/why he killed Joffrey, it seems almost like she is trying to force his hand. The way its been filmed there is no way she is unaware at this point that he is attracted to her. Her forcing the question again seems to deliberately push it out in the open and obviously it works because he kisses her.

Her statement that she knows what he wants (could be a grab for the throne, but is likely herself as well) will also force him to be more bold. The sexy dress and cocky attitude will have the same effect. If she is gambling here - trying to make him desire her so that he will not hurt her and do what she wants while simultaneously avoiding sexual advance from him - it makes little sense to me because he already wants her as a second Cat and is risked a lot to smuggle her and killed Lysa. Her confronting his lust and vamping it up for him makes her more vulnerable IMO.

I think these are all valid points. A thought, however. On your statement that Sansa is "trying to make him [LF] desire her so that he will not hurt her and do what she wants while simultaneously avoiding sexual advance from him". Are you sure that's what she's doing? There might not be that much "avoiding" going on here - she might have decided that this is the way to make her move. Though yes, a very dangerous game, and she'll have to be very careful how she plays it.

[Theda Baratheon]

HER BLACK DRESS IS ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THINGS IVE EVER SEEN.