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Well, I'm getting a vibe that D&D are going seriously off the rails here. Ygritte took this long to die, Pyp and Grenn dead, and NO STANNIS? WTF? :bang:



This battle was supposed to have started two episodes ago and been part of a running background to events elsewhere. Not agreeing with the management at all.


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Im pretty sure thats still just your opinion, mate. Unsullied viewers dont see Jon as forgettable, just a little dull in some areas. This episode was definitely one of those that has Jon in the forefront reminding us what hes capable of doing. People are gonna wanna see more Jon now. Especially since things are going to get interesting for him. If you think people wont be upset when his stabbing occurs, you are in for a rude awakening. The unsullied are going to flip the fuck out over that.

^ This

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And yet the prologue for ADWD has a warg doing exactly that. So it wouldn't be like GRRM pulled it out of nowhere. He devoted an entire prologue to someone doing that sort of thing.

Not really relevant to the discussion, but that prologue was one of my favourite chapters from all the books. It was a let down when they killed Varamyr Sixskins ahead of time on the TV series and now just replaced him with a Thenn warg. I do understand why it was done though, just thought they could have explored Varamyr's character a little more.

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I don't normally spoil stuff for Unsullied viewers, since you're clearly behind on the books, but after Ser Gregor gouges out Ser Oberyn's eyes and crushes his skull he seeks redemption for his life of savagery by saving the Night's Watch at Castle Black. After nearly single handedly defeating all of Mance's wildingling troops, (minus the Weeper's faction) he seeks to rescue Arya from Ramsay and defeat the Bolton army at Winterfell. Him and Jon Snow develop a tense, but heartfelt bromance, that leads to Gregor gaining the respect and loyalty of the Northern Mountain clans, (fitting no?) before marching against Roose and Ramsay. I haven't seen how it plays out in Winds of Winter, but I just haven't really figured out how the Mountain is going to become "The Mountain who Cared", due to his abscence this episode.

Yarp! I suspect it will involve Ser Gregor finding out Ser Pounce stole away in his backpack after he heard Margaery say she liked corgis.

Edited by PhoenixFlame

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I don't normally spoil stuff for Unsullied viewers, since you're clearly behind on the books, but after Ser Gregor gouges out Ser Oberyn's eyes and crushes his skull he seeks redemption for his life of savagery by saving the Night's Watch at Castle Black. After nearly single handedly defeating all of Mance's wildingling troops, (minus the Weeper's faction) he seeks to rescue Arya from Ramsay and defeat the Bolton army at Winterfell. Him and Jon Snow develop a tense, but heartfelt bromance, that leads to Gregor gaining the respect and loyalty of the Northern Mountain clans, (fitting no?) before marching against Roose and Ramsay. I haven't seen how it plays out in Winds of Winter, but I just haven't really figured out how the Mountain is going to become "The Mountain who Cared", due to his abscence this episode.

Damn. And I've also heard he's actually a secret Targaryen.

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I think Pyp and Grenn dying was fitting (but I kinda wish Pyp survived). Grenn's death was really special. In GoT, very few die in such a heroic manner. Most deaths are grisly and leave a bitter feeling (ala Ned, RW, the Viper and most minor characters).

Grenn's scene was so great...better than any role he could have if he had lived on.

Absolutely agreed. I thought him leading the recitation of the NW vows while a freaking 18 foot tall Giant stormed through the tunnels towards them was one of the most epic things in the show's history.

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Not really relevant to the discussion, but that prologue was one of my favourite chapters from all the books. It was a let down when they killed Varamyr Sixskins ahead of time on the TV series and now just replaced him with a Thenn warg. I do understand why it was done though, just thought they could have explored Varamyr's character a little more.

Varamyr hasn't been on the show, I can only assume you're thinking of Orell from season 3? Varamyr is in a casting call for the 5th season, so he'll be introduced next year!

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My point is that it's exceptionally clear already that Jon makes poor decisions a little too often. HBO is going to blow that up like crazy and now that the unsullied have seen that happen to chars they care about many times, they're not going to be anywhere near as surprised when Jon gets it. You're in for a rude awakening yourself if you don't give the unsullied enough credit to be able to figure out that once Jon starts fucking up all the time he's going to get beetle-smashed. And that's the point; D&D are already hammering home that Jon can be gone that quickly, whereas with Rob or Cat or Oberyn or Ned or anyone else the Unsullied cared about it was so much less blatantly obvious. I just don't think that the fact that D&D are shipping it so hard this early is a good sign. I'll respectfully agree to disagree with you moving forward.

Seriously! Where are getting this 'Jon fucking up all the time' from?

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Absolutely agreed. I thought him leading the recitation of the NW vows while a freaking 18 foot tall Giant stormed through the tunnels towards them was one of the most epic things in the show's history.

If War Horse got Oscar noms, this scene can get some epic kudos.

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Varamyr hasn't been on the show, I can only assume you're thinking of Orell from season 3? Varamyr is in a casting call for the 5th season, so he'll be introduced next year!

Right! Sorry, my mistake, heh. Glad to hear that though!

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Up until this episode, perhaps, D&D handled Jon Snow's character badly. Although it wasn't too bad in season 1. But why do you think Jon Snow seemed liked an idiot in this episode? If it for his decision to go out and meet with Mance, I think it was explained well. He tells Sam they are fighting a losing battle and there's no other option. They even imply that he doesn't know what he hopes to achieve but he sees no other alternative. He's met Mance and explains to Sam that it's Mance that holds the Wildlings together. Granted they didn't flesh out Jon's and Mance's relationship well in the prior season but I don't see how Jon going to meet with Mance makes him an idiot.

I'm not saying it wasn't explained well since it's quite obvious that the dumbing-down is paramount to storylines on GoT because of simple realities. Yes, I think Jon going on a suicide mission is stupid when it literally would have taken as much time or less for him to be ordered by Slynt or even Thorne to go treat with Mance instead. That's a realistic complaint. Jon looks amazingly petty and stupid and the dumbing down is so over the top that it's nearly unbearable when after Ygritte dies in the show his resolve is just, "Well fook it if I kill Mance we might have a chance"; all this does is achieve's a full-circle affect to Jon and Mance's first meeting in the show when Mance asks Jon why he wants to join the free folk and after giving the unsatisfactory answer Mance says something along the lines of, "No, I think you want to be a hero.".

That's what having suicide-mission Jon accomplishes, one shitty full-circle arc instead of the potential plot advancement that would have been achieved by him being order by Slynt, continuing the disdain for the man who's cowardice was a high note this episode, or even having the order come from Ser Alliser which would have been a nice touch and complimentary piece to his line which was essentially, "After the battle we'll go on hating each other but right now I need you and you need me."

Jon meeting with Mance obviously does not make him an idiot. Jon meeting with Mance under the suicide-plan is just the dullest and dumbest you can make his plot and story out to be.

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lmao! <3

Yeah. It was a great episode to expand on the Wall and show us the NW holding together even after so much.

Do most of you watch with unsullied? Im kinda guessing not from some of the reactions in here. My mother was literally bouncing all over the room going "omfg! OH MAN! DO IT! JON!!! SOMEONE END THAT GUY! (Tormund) OMG!!! WOOOOAHHH! PYP! YGRITTE! OH NO!!" It was really special and fun.

I watch with 5 or 6 people each week -- 2 of which have read the books, the others haven't. There were copious amounts of cheering, shouting, laughing, etc. during the Giants/Mammoths intro, the build up to the Grenn/Giant tunnel encounter, Styr's death, the Scythe, etc. Was a really, really fun episode to watch with a group.

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I sure hope so! If it's a toss-up between Foucault introspection and Angela Carter joie de vivre, I'll go with the latter every time! It's going to be a million kinds of epic when Gregor comes across Ramsay in a snowy evil place, the Bastard having cornered Jeyne, and yanks him off with a velvety baritone "Why is it I'm always rescuing Starks?" Of course he understood the true deception, but in a zenith of lemming-incomprehensible moral complexity he saw the need to keep Jeyne's secret safe.

Now you're catching on! I for one am voting that Gregor wrote the Pink Letter, before singlehandedly winning the Battle on the Ice against the Freys, in addition to rescuing Jeyne Poole. But the question becomes, how can Gregor's redemption arc appear on the show without his interactions with Tormund, Alliser, Gilly, and Jon Snow? Also, based on DnD's poor interpretation of the text we might never get quotes such as: "I had the cart before the horse," the Mountain said. "I was trying to win the throne to save the Kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the Kingdom to win the Throne." This quote definitely ties in with the idea that Gregor is a secret Targ, and I'm wondering if maybe him and Dany might even join forces come A Dream of Spring? We'll have to see though, because I for one am disgusted by this complete disrespect regarding his agency, autonomy, self-independence, and nuance in the show.

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Quotapalooza:

"What our vows say about other activities is open to interpretation" Sam

"I'm not a bleeding poet" Jon ("no, you're not" Sam)

"I know you never fucked a bear" Ygritte

"Old age is a wonderful source of irony, if nothing else" Maester Aemon

"Nothing makes the past a sweeter place to visit than the prospect of imminent death" Maester Aemon

"What are you fucking waiting for? LOOSE!" Aliser Thorne

"Sam, I think we're gonna die" Pyp, "if you keep missing we will" Sam

"Do you want to fill the belly of a Thenn tonight?" Alliser Thorne

"When the sun rises I promise you, Castle Black will stand! The Night's Watch will stand!" AlliserThorne

"Those are giants riding mammoths down there!" Jon

"No such thing as giants... a a a story for the children" Janos Slynt

"Hold the gate" Jon "Hold the fucking gate!" AlliserThorne

"Might as well enjoy our last night, right boys? Light the fuckers up!" Dolorous Edd

"We hold the gate!" Grenn (and then the Night's Watch Oath)

"We need you boy" Sam

"Do you remember that cave? We shoulda stayed in that cave." Ygritte

"Drop the scythe boys!" Dolorous Edd

"Don't cheer too loud, they still outnumber us a thousand to one" Dolorous Edd

"I promised you, didn't i?" Sam

"You're right, it's a bad plan. What's your plan?" Jon

"Jon, come back." Sam

:cheers:

My point is that it's exceptionally clear already that Jon makes poor decisions a little too often. HBO is going to blow that up like crazy and now that the unsullied have seen that happen to chars they care about many times, they're not going to be anywhere near as surprised when Jon gets it. You're in for a rude awakening yourself if you don't give the unsullied enough credit to be able to figure out that once Jon starts fucking up all the time he's going to get beetle-smashed. And that's the point; D&D are already hammering home that Jon can be gone that quickly, whereas with Rob or Cat or Oberyn or Ned or anyone else the Unsullied cared about it was so much less blatantly obvious. I just don't think that the fact that D&D are shipping it so hard this early is a good sign. I'll respectfully agree to disagree with you moving forward.

Wow you are really upset.

Its not obvious at all that Jon might get iced. Seriously, its not. Im saying that as a book reader, its not obvious. Jon has been depicted as the voice of reason this season against guys like Slynt and Thorne. His decision to go route out Craster's was seen as an honorable one by a lot of the Watch. His decision to meet with Mance and not being ordered to, is in line with his crushing feelings over Ygritte's death in the show. Which, if anything, is an indication he isnt gonna die because heroes who do that never get owned. Its a trope.

I think im giving more credit to the unsullied than you are. If i was unsullied and watching the show, id never guess that Jon is going die or even fail in this current mission. I wouldnt know about Stannis' coming (but i would wonder cuz Stannis said he would head North) so i wouldnt know that thats how Jon gets out. But i would assume he would get out because of how his character is portrayed. (The only honorable guy besides Sam in the Watch really.) And the lingering question about Jon's parents. I would not assume as an unsullied that that would go unanswered because of character death. (cuz that would be shit writing. Hence why i dont think Jon is dead in the books.) Just as i would never assume Tyrion is going to die if i hadnt read the books. My unsullied friends know Tyrion isnt going to die because of how he was depicted and his story isnt over.

dumbing down

I think this is why your jimmies are so out of place. You assume the show is dumbing down everything. It really hasnt dumbed down too much and i think this is more your opinion speaking. I do not see why you are lashing out at us since we are being civil with you, mate.

I used to be a man of the night's watch like you, then I took an AAAAAAAIIIIIEEE

Loved Game of Thrones turning into The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim for just a few precious seconds.

YISS! That is the most creative death ive seen so far!

Up until this episode, perhaps, D&D handled Jon Snow's character badly. Although it wasn't too bad in season 1. But why do you think Jon Snow seemed liked an idiot in this episode? If it for his decision to go out and meet with Mance, I think it was explained well. He tells Sam they are fighting a losing battle and there's no other option. They even imply that he doesn't know what he hopes to achieve but he sees no other alternative. He's met Mance and explains to Sam that it's Mance that holds the Wildlings together. Granted they didn't flesh out Jon's and Mance's relationship well in the prior season but I don't see how Jon going to meet with Mance makes him an idiot.

It really doesnt make Jon look dumb at all. Its risky and he knows it but the show is depicting Jon as pretty fucking cut up over Ygritte's death. Its natural that he would feel so fatalistic.

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Have you not read ADwD? That's where "Jon fucking up all the time" comes from......

I have and I don't interpret it your way. Did he make a few bad decisions? Yes. Did he make good ones? Yes. That doesn't amount to 'fucking up all the time.'

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:cheers:

Wow you are really upset.

Its not obvious at all that Jon might get iced. Seriously, its not. Im saying that as a book reader, its not obvious. Jon has been depicted as the voice of reason this season against guys like Slynt and Thorne. His decision to go route out Craster's was seen as an honorable one by a lot of the Watch. His decision to meet with Mance and not being ordered to, is in line with his crushing feelings over Ygritte's death in the show. Which, if anything, is an indication he isnt gonna die because heroes who do that never get owned. Its a trope.

I think im giving more credit to the unsullied than you are. If i was unsullied and watching the show, id never guess that Jon is going die or even fail in this current mission. I wouldnt know about Stannis' coming (but i would wonder cuz Stannis said he would head North) so i wouldnt know that thats how Jon gets out. But i would assume he would get out because of how his character is portrayed. (The only honorable guy besides Sam in the Watch really.) And the lingering question about Jon's parents. I would not assume as an unsullied that that would go unanswered because of character death. (cuz that would be shit writing. Hence why i dont think Jon is dead in the books.) Just as i would never assume Tyrion is going to die if i hadnt read the books. My unsullied friends know Tyrion isnt going to die because of how he was depicted and his story isnt over.

I think this is why your jimmies are so out of place. You assume the show is dumbing down everything. It really hasnt dumbed down too much and i think this is more your opinion speaking. I do not see why you are lashing out at us since we are being civil with you, mate.

YISS! That is the most creative death ive seen so far!

It really doesnt make Jon look dumb at all. Its risky and he knows it but the show is depicting Jon as pretty fucking cut up over Ygritte's death. Its natural that he would feel so fatalistic.

^ Exactly the point I'm trying to make.

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I know Jon said it, but why are we supposed to think Castle Black will fall?

Main threat was the attack by the back door with elite warriors and its over. All done in Mances side was a Joke. Their arrows just dont reach the wall, if they send a mamouth you set him on fire, and if they send you a giant youll stop him with six men. The door was not even broked, just lifted. And the climbing guys had 0 chanes of reaching the top.

Because Mance and the Wildlings can continue doing that for weeks and months if they need to. The NW lost half it's men in just this episode. If even a few more were to die in each subsequent Wildling attack, the NW would be wiped out within a few weeks.

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