R+L = J v 86

[IceFire125]

Though I'm unsure if there is a precedent for an unborn inheriting over its uncle in the series, one very significant historical example comes to mind. When Alexander III "The Great" died, he left only a pregnant wife Roxana and no legitimate heir. The Diadochi (Alexander's generals and family) decided to wait until the child was born before passing the kingship on. If it were a boy, he would be heir, if it were a girl, kingship would pass to Alexander III's half brother Philip. A boy was born (Alexander IV) and he inherited. Of course later the Diadochi all started fighting each other, Alexander IV and Roxana were murdered, and Philip (as Philip III) claimed kingship before he himself was killed at the order of Alexander the Great's mother, Olympias.

It is not far from the possibility that the 3KGs were holding their breath as Lyanna gave birth. I'm of the opinion that the 3KGs (at the least, Hightower) will remain purposeful and flee that tower if the baby had been a girl and go straight to Viserys.

[Aeron_Damphair]

If I were from an 8000 year old house, I wouldn't really care about the relative short length of a dynasty. And there were KGs before the Targs. Seven of them, in fact. But this is neither here nor there.

Anyway, the Targ dynasty carries on regardless of the ToJ, through Viserys, then Dany, then Robert, then Stannis, then Renly.

I don't think the tradition of the KG is necessarily tied, specifically, to the Targaryen dynasty. I know someone else made that claim, but the point stands. The KG aren't dismissed just because their king dies. Their responsibility is transferred to the protection of that king's heir. That is exactly what it means to be loyal to the dynasty.

[Mladen]

I was doing some reread of Sansa's chapters in AGoT, and one thing caught my attention. I couldn't remember if this was brought to your attention at some point (I think it might have been, since there are so little stones unturned by now), but I thought it is interesting... Also, it may be nothing, but here it is:

In the Throne room, when Sansa was pleading for the life of her father, Varys made a general statement in response to her pleads:

“A child’s-faith... such sweet innocence... and yet, they say wisdom oft comes from the mouths of babes.”

Now, wrt R+L=J, one should remember that Sansa never called Jon "her brother" In the first Arya's POV chapter, Arya fiercely said that Jon is their brother, upon which Sansa corrects her with half-brother. The scene is interesting because Arya is known for fierce refusing lines that sometimes are the greatest truths (like her reaction to Sansa being married to Tyrion). So, crossing over the Varys' line, with Sansa generally never calling Jon a brother (until much later in the series), should we take this as the sign that Sansa, as the babe, completely unaware was giving us the wisdom regarding Jon's parentage? Is it possible that Sansa not calling Jon her brother isn't sign of some lack of love (for they do love each other, and it is shown over and over again) but actually literary clue about Jon's parentage?

Again, if this was brought up, I am sorry for disrupting the current debate... :)

[Ygritte]

Though I'm unsure if there is a precedent for an unborn child inheriting over its uncle in the series, one very significant historical example comes to mind. When Alexander III "The Great" died, he left only a pregnant wife Roxana and no legitimate heir. The Diadochi (Alexander's generals and family) decided to wait until the child was born before passing the kingship on. If it were a boy, he would be heir, if it were a girl, kingship would pass to Alexander III's half (but legitimate) brother Philip. A boy was born (Alexander IV) and he inherited.

Of course later the Diadochi all started fighting each other, Alexander IV and Roxana were murdered, and Philip (as Philip III) claimed kingship before he himself was killed at the order of Alexander the Great's mother, Olympias. :uhoh:

Alexander even had multiple wives, though to carry the parallel too far would have Lyanna murdering Elia, which obviously she did not do. :D

[BearQueen87]

I don't think the tradition of the KG is necessarily tied, specifically, to the Targaryen dynasty. I know someone else made that claim, but the point stands. The KG aren't dismissed just because their king dies. Their responsibility is transferred to the protection of that king's heir. That is exactly what it means to be loyal to the dynasty.

Yes. So when Robert died, the current KG instantly swore to Joffery because 1) they had no solid evidence that Joffery was a bastard and 2) he's the son of the King; he's next in line. They did not drop their sword and go running to Stannis just because he was trying to take the throne because it was really his. In their minds, Joffery was king because his father had been. Everyone else is a Usurper.

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

Whether anyone is king is opinion. We have so many issues that cloud who is "rightfully" king. Stupid people have been passed over. Crazy people have been passed over. Legitimized bastards have been passed over. Women have been passed over. Unlikable people have been passed over.

Jon's situation is full of these questions, yet so many are certain what these 3 KG believed because Ned happened to respect them.

The only two questions I could see being raised are: 1) His parents were married in secret so was it a legit marriage. 2) He is king at birth if R&L were married. Most people probably wouldn't want a baby on the throne, but since the Targaryen dynasty was basically in exile he could be raised in exile and return with an army. None of the questions you pointed out actually apply to Jon.

It does get murky. The point I was making is that the KG didn't know if it was a boy or girl yet, so there was a 50% chance they were guarding the wrong person or fetus.

By the time the Kingsguard finds out about Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon's death Jon may have been born. Even if he hasn't if the Kingsguard leaves and the baby turns out to be a boy, they just left their king behind. If Jon isn't born when they find out Lyanna is probably very close to giving birth and so they will wait in case it is a boy.

I have also decided that GRRM will write what he wants to right to make the book interesting.

Some posters on this thread make me want to :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: . I would call them out as trolls, but I am unsure whether they really are or just plain ignorant. And being a mostly nice person I will assume that they are ignorant instead of being total jerks. The lesser of two evils, you know. I am watching you _______ posters. :angry2:

a) ignorant

b) trolling

Still leaning towards trolls.

[BearQueen87]

I was doing some reread of Sansa's chapters in AGoT, and one thing caught my attention. I couldn't remember if this was brought to your attention at some point (I think it might have been, since there are so little stones unturned by now), but I thought it is interesting... Also, it may be nothing, but here it is:

In the Throne room, when Sansa was pleading for the life of her father, Varys made a general statement in response to her pleads:

“A child’s-faith... such sweet innocence... and yet, they say wisdom oft comes from the mouths of babes.”

Now, wrt R+L=J, one should remember that Sansa never called Jon "her brother" In the first Arya's POV chapter, Arya fiercely said that Jon is their brother, upon which Sansa corrects her with half-brother. The scene is interesting because Arya is known for fierce lines that sometimes are the greatest truths (like her reaction to Sansa being married to Tyrion). So, crossing over the Varys' line, with Sansa generally never calling Jon a brother (until much later in the series), should we take this as the sign that Sansa, as the babe, completely unaware was giving us the wisdom regarding Jon's parentage? Is it possible that Sansa not calling Jon her brother isn't sign of some lack of love (for they do love each other, and it is shown over and over again) but actually literary clue about Jon's parentage?

Again, if this was brought up, I am sorry for disrupting the current debate... :)

Hmmm. That's an interesting idea. Sansa does have moments of saying something that is actually true but she may not fully recognize but clues the readers in. Best example of course, being

He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king.

From aGoT which turns the entire story on its head.

Nice catch

[Alia of the knife]

GO Orioles!!!

[Alia of the knife]

Woops, wrong thread. 😬

[BearQueen87]

Woops, wrong thread.

HAHAH. I was so confused!

[Alia of the knife]

HAHAH. I was so confused!

😃 I'm just glad they're winning. But please carry on.

[Ygrain]

If they swear an oath for life, they swear to protect that king, and the king after him, and the king after him. Obviously it is like a US Supreme Court situation whereas the reigning monarch is going to appoint people who will reflect/support his dynastic interests, but if they serve for life they are expected to uphold that service regardless to who/what family it might be for.

Your parallel would work only if Presidency was hereditary, which is not. Take a look how the Westerosi society works - fealty is to a Lord AND his descendants; once a Lannister bannerman, always a Lannister bannerman. That is the mindset of these people; bloodline and birthright is what matters.

Though I'm unsure if there is a precedent for an unborn child inheriting over its uncle in the series, one very significant historical example comes to mind. When Alexander III "The Great" died, he left only a pregnant wife Roxana and no legitimate heir. The Diadochi (Alexander's generals and family) decided to wait until the child was born before passing the kingship on. If it were a boy, he would be heir, if it were a girl, kingship would pass to Alexander III's half (but legitimate) brother Philip. A boy was born (Alexander IV) and he inherited.

A practice seen during the Middle Ages, as well. Until the queen gave birth after the king's death, there was an interregnum.

If I were from an 8000 year old house, I wouldn't really care about the relative short length of a dynasty. And there were KGs before the Targs. Seven of them, in fact. But this is neither here nor there.

Which is the whole point of swearing the KG vows - to put your family behind and live to serve only and solely to the king, no matter what. Sure, many KG never lived up to the ideal, but all the text references to the White Bull hint that he did.

[FrozenFire3]

Your parallel would work only if Presidency was hereditary, which is not. Take a look how the Westerosi society works - fealty is to a Lord AND his descendants; once a Lannister bannerman, always a Lannister bannerman. That is the mindset of these people; bloodline and birthright is what matters.

A practice seen during the Middle Ages, as well. Until the queen gave birth after the king's death, there was an interregnum.

Which is the whole point of swearing the KG vows - to put your family behind and live to serve only and solely to the king, no matter what. Sure, many KG never lived up to the ideal, but all the text references to the White Bull hint that he did.

Not only. European precedents include also Alfonso XIII of Spain, born in 1886. Jean I of France aka the Posthumous (1316) has instead a very tragic story as he lived only 5 days, probably poisoned by his... uncle Philip the Tall (just to reaffirm the KG's absolute need for secrecy). An intriguing story circulated about his supposed survival, with a man, Giannino Baglioni, claiming to be the 'deceased' Jean (sounds familiar...). Useless to say, it didn't end well for him LOL

A non-European example is Shapur II of Persia, crowned while still in the womb. In all cases, while waiting for the birth, there was an interregnum.

[BearQueen87]

Your parallel would work only if Presidency was hereditary, which is not. Take a look how the Westerosi society works - fealty is to a Lord AND his descendants; once a Lannister bannerman, always a Lannister bannerman. That is the mindset of these people; bloodline and birthright is what matters.

A practice seen during the Middle Ages, as well. Until the queen gave birth after the king's death, there was an interregnum.

Which is the whole point of swearing the KG vows - to put your family behind and live to serve only and solely to the king, no matter what. Sure, many KG never lived up to the ideal, but all the text references to the White Bull hint that he did.

And according to Ned's inner thoughts, the three at the tower were ideal.

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

A practice seen during the Middle Ages, as well. Until the queen gave birth after the king's death, there was an interregnum.

Another example is Mary Tudor, King Henry VIII's younger sister. She was wed to the King of France who had no sons. After his death (he died a 1-2 months after their wedding IIRC) everyone waited to see if Mary was pregnant. If rumors are to be believed she pretended to be pregnant for a while to keep the nobles and the future king on edge. They were waiting and she wasn't even pregnant. The Kingsguard waiting a few days or a week at most would not be surprising.

[MtnLion]

Another example is Mary Tudor, King Henry VIII's younger sister. She was wed to the King of France who had no sons. After his death (he died a 1-2 months after their wedding IIRC) everyone waited to see if Mary was pregnant. If rumors are to be believed she pretended to be pregnant for a while to keep the nobles and the future king on edge. They were waiting and she wasn't even pregnant. The Kingsguard waiting a few days or a week at most would not be surprising.

This is not a disagreement. I just want to clarify the situation at the tower.

The timing is very much at GRRM's disposal. We know that Lyanna likely died of childbirth fever five to ten days after the birth. The birth is within two weeks of the sack of King's Landing. Ned cannot arrive later than 3.5 weeks after the sack, which is a remarkable pace for where he went, after the sack. News of the sack reaching the tower could easily take two weeks. Why? Because they likely relied on travelers and word of mouth news, and that is notoriously unreliable. They would want to hear exactly the same story from two separate sources before they would consider it a possibility. So, it is not unlikely that they believed that Aerys was dead, and King's Landing sacked after Jon had been born. Maybe only a day or two before Ned arrives they believe that the Jon is the heir.

I do like the fact that Oswell is kneeling, facing the tower, when Ned arrives. It is like Daenerys stumbling to her knee, when the grass is bowing to the dragon. All hail, Jon, first of his name . . .

[Ygritte]

Another example is Mary Tudor, King Henry VIII's younger sister. She was wed to the King of France who had no sons. After his death (he died a 1-2 months after their wedding IIRC) everyone waited to see if Mary was pregnant. If rumors are to be believed she pretended to be pregnant for a while to keep the nobles and the future king on edge. They were waiting and she wasn't even pregnant. The Kingsguard waiting a few days or a week at most would not be surprising.

And then married for love and pissed her brother right the hell off. :D

/OT

[AlliYoyo]

This is not a disagreement. I just want to clarify the situation at the tower.

The timing is very much at GRRM's disposal. We know that Lyanna likely died of childbirth fever five to ten days after the birth. The birth is within two weeks of the sack of King's Landing. Ned cannot arrive later than 3.5 weeks after the sack, which is a remarkable pace for where he went, after the sack. News of the sack reaching the tower could easily take two weeks. Why? Because they likely relied on travelers and word of mouth news, and that is notoriously unreliable. They would want to hear exactly the same story from two separate sources before they would consider it a possibility. So, it is not unlikely that they believed that Aerys was dead, and King's Landing sacked after Jon had been born. Maybe only a day or two before Ned arrives they believe that the Jon is the heir.

I do like the fact that Oswell is kneeling, facing the tower, when Ned arrives. It is like Daenerys stumbling to her knee, when the grass is bowing to the dragon. All hail, Jon, first of his name . . .

Haven't we been told somewhere that Jon was born about a month after the sack of KL? So if R+L=J, and Jon was born within 10 days of Ned arriving at the ToJ, then Ned's travel time would have been approximately one month, give or take.

[MtnLion]

Haven't we been told somewhere that Jon was born about a month after the sack of KL? So if R+L=J, and Jon was born within 10 days of Ned arriving at the ToJ, then Ned's travel time would have been approximately one month, give or take.

We were told that Jon is eight to nine months older than Daenerys. Daenerys was conceived the night that Chelsted was roasted by Aerys, and replaced by Rossart. Rossart was Hand for two weeks, per Jaime, before he killed him during the sack of King's Landing. Daenerys was born nine months after Rhaella fled King's Landing, from Daenerys' POV. Jon was born not more than a month after Chelsted was roasted, which means that Ned has two weeks plus 5 to 10 days to arrive at the tower.

I probably need to add a link to this timeline analysis in my signature, too. I keep writing it out by hand.

ETA: We also know that the night that Daenerys was conceived that Jonothor Darry was with Jaime, guarding the door. Jonothor went to the Trident and died there with Rhaegar, and Ned brought his army to King's Landing all within a fortnight.

[IceFire125]

With the information that the children was still freshly murdered when Ned arrived and later, Robert..

I think the battle at the Trident was not that long, given a solid initial charge by both side, fierce fighting that costs a lot of lives, including the 2 Kingsguards, with Barristan being wounded in the process. In fact, the royal army must have dispersed quickly once, Lewyn Martell fell, and especially when Rhaegar died fighting 1vs1 against Robert. Because the next thing we get an indication of is that the Lannister was already at KL ready to move in when the gates opened.