Catelyn's venomous impact on Blackfish

[a Spider from Mars]

Not a Tully fan then?

Damn straight! The Tullys haven't done anything for TWOIAF kinda like The French & Canadians in our world.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

Damn straight! The Tullys haven't done anything for TWOIAF kinda like The French & Canadians in our world.

Can't argue with that 😃

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Sweetrobin is not even related to the Starks.

No one claimed he was.

 

He never cared much for the boy when he was still in the Vale.

Do you have any evidence for this?

 

How would that work? He didn't fly Arryn banners at RR, did he?

Why would he? The Arryns were nor involved in the war.

 

Those banners flew over Riverrun before the Blackfish got there from the Westerlands and he had little reason to bring them down as he was making a stand.

He didn't even want to surrender RR for Edmure's life. So, basically he chooses the late king's wife over his own family.

No, he chose Edmure Freys wife as Jaime threatened to Roslin Frey and her unborn childs life.

 

In actual fact it is Edmure who makes the call as once Jaime releases him back into Riverrun he becomes the Tully in charge. It is more his call rather than Bryndens.
 

You'd think he'll back Sansa over Robb's last will? The evidence and his behaviour point strongly to "no".

 

I think he will back his family rather than a will for an independent North which he has little affiliation for outside of his nieces family. He is a Tully and a Riverlander, he has more pressing concerns.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Why is Catelyn going around and telling people that Jon can't be trusted? What did Jon ever do that would make her think he is in the same league as Theon? I am seriously wondering

Aren'tall bbastards assumed to be less than trustworthy, having been born of lust?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Why would Brynden have any love for the bastard child of his niece's husband? 

All he said is that she didn't trust Theon and that turned out to be accurate and now another person she didn't trust (being the bastard of her husband) is LC on the wall and he finds that suspect. 
 

Raising Jon in Winterfell was said to be an affront to Catelyn's honor, so it must have been an affront to House Tully's honor too.

[Lord Wraith]

Raising Jon in Winterfell was said to be an affront to Catelyn's honor, so it must have been an affront to House Tully's honor too.

 

True also word might have gotten out that Jon is working with Stannis and that can't look good.

[BanzaiZ]

Brynden, for all he's called the Blackfish, is still a Tully. Why on earth would he want to back a stain on his niece's honor over a living family member?

 

For all we know, he doesn't know that Sansa is alive. But he certainly doesn't know she's dead. The story for Westeros is that she's in hiding, spirited off somewhere. Why in the world is he going to chuck over his own family's claim to the North to support Jon? 

 

I'm not saying he's a bad dude. But the Tully words are Family. Duty. Honor. And he's still a Tully. He could agree to Robb's will as far as Robb is alive, but Robb is currently feeding maggots at the moment. Robb's dead, by treachery and some of his own mistakes. Furthermore, it IS suspicious that his family was nearly entirely wiped out by an act of unprecedented treachery, and now word is trickling out the Jon Snow is suddenly LC of the Night's Watch? We know the context surrounding these events. Brynden doesn't, and anyone else is going to rightfully view this as suspicious. This isn't even going into the long history of bastards in Westeros, and how Catelyn had a very justified fear of Jon's legitimization threatening her own children's rights. The only reason it hasn't become a major issue is because Jon has enough honor to not usurp his sister at Stannis' offer. Jon's an unbelievably honorable man for the world he lives in. But again, we know this because we have a firsthand PoV. The rest of Westeros does not, and to them? He's a bastard. And right now bastards have a terrible reputation, especially in light of Ramsay Bolton. 

 

Is it right for Jon to be painted this way? No. But Ned utterly bungled his raising of Jon, and that gave original flavoring for the Tully's predisposition towards him, coupled with the fact that bastards are currently what are tearing the realm apart. 

 

So no, I don't think Catelyn "poisoned" his view, nor do I think he's misdirecting. It's a reasonable response for him, as a Tully and with the limited information he has to work off of. If he finds Sansa, I'd fully be prepared for him to back her claim.

[YunoGasai]

 

Why is Catelyn going around and telling people that Jon can't be trusted? What did Jon ever do that would make her think he is in the same league as Theon? I am seriously wondering

The same reason that incidentally Catelyn was right that Theon was not to be trusted. The Blackfish had practically no allies now. He also felt bitter and extremely betrayed bec of the red wedding. He knew that he's losing but he would want to retain the pride that the Lannisters might be winning, but they have no honor to brag. Brynden would not attack Jaime with useless insults but with honor-degrading facts so that Jaime would get annoyed in w/c he did. And anyway your title 'cat's venomous impact on blackfish' is too biased. Cat was just being truthful to her thoughts when she said that she did not trust Theon and Jon but she has no malice in her voice. It was worry. And anyway how will the blackfish affect Jon? he was an outlaw now and most likely will never go to the Wall bcoz he won't last the journey but go back to the Vale where he had originally resided since quarreling with his bro Hoster.

[Faydra]

Didn't you know that Catelyn is worse than Ramsay, Gregor, Hitler and Satan combined? It's right there in the books :P

 

People don't believe that she's worse than, let's say, Cersei, Theon or Tywin. They're simply pissed off because they had higher expectations and Cat's demeanor promises too much while her actions deliver too little. 

[sweetsunray]

Brynden, for all he's called the Blackfish, is still a Tully. Why on earth would he want to back a stain on his niece's honor over a living family member?

 

For all we know, he doesn't know that Sansa is alive. But he certainly doesn't know she's dead. The story for Westeros is that she's in hiding, spirited off somewhere. Why in the world is he going to chuck over his own family's claim to the North to support Jon? 

 

I'm not saying he's a bad dude. But the Tully words are Family. Duty. Honor. And he's still a Tully. He could agree to Robb's will as far as Robb is alive, but Robb is currently feeding maggots at the moment. Robb's dead, by treachery and some of his own mistakes. Furthermore, it IS suspicious that his family was nearly entirely wiped out by an act of unprecedented treachery, and now word is trickling out the Jon Snow is suddenly LC of the Night's Watch? We know the context surrounding these events. Brynden doesn't, and anyone else is going to rightfully view this as suspicious. This isn't even going into the long history of bastards in Westeros, and how Catelyn had a very justified fear of Jon's legitimization threatening her own children's rights. The only reason it hasn't become a major issue is because Jon has enough honor to not usurp his sister at Stannis' offer. Jon's an unbelievably honorable man for the world he lives in. But again, we know this because we have a firsthand PoV. The rest of Westeros does not, and to them? He's a bastard. And right now bastards have a terrible reputation, especially in light of Ramsay Bolton. 

 

Is it right for Jon to be painted this way? No. But Ned utterly bungled his raising of Jon, and that gave original flavoring for the Tully's predisposition towards him, coupled with the fact that bastards are currently what are tearing the realm apart. 

 

So no, I don't think Catelyn "poisoned" his view, nor do I think he's misdirecting. It's a reasonable response for him, as a Tully and with the limited information he has to work off of. If he finds Sansa, I'd fully be prepared for him to back her claim.

 

 

Robb was dead, and yet Brynden refused to surrender Jeyne Westerling, the person he had sworn to protect to Robb, his queen. And he only surrendered, after Edmure somehow suddenly convinced him, after Edmure had been talking with Tom Sevenstrings.

 

When Ryman threatened to hang Edmure, Brynden still refused to surrender RR and Jeyne Westerling. Edmure is the closest family he has left. And yet, he takes his oath to Robb and the protection of the wife of a dead king OVER the life of his nephew.

 

With all that's going on in the background in the RL, only those 2 sworn men taking the black is significant, especially in light of the fact that Brynden obviously thought his oath to protect the wife of a dead king over the Tully family. And he is still bound by that oath, to rescue her from the escort on the road that is intending to go to CR. And we will see him attempt to do just that in WoW.

 

He utterly despises Lannisters, and as long as Sansa is not officially unwed to Tyrion, I doubt any Northerner or RL-er still loyal to the late Robb Stark will back her.

 

And while he followed Lysa to the Vale, once she was widowed he was out of there ASAP. He chooses his own to follow, and they usually are men; men he respects.

 

BTW - if it were possible I'd wish Arya to be the queen of the North. But GRRM writes what he wants, and all the signs point to the Blackfish honoring the will and wishes of Robb Stark.

[ConfusedCounselor]

 

 

Robb was dead, and yet Brynden refused to surrender Jeyne Westerling, the person he had sworn to protect to Robb, his queen. And he only surrendered, after Edmure somehow suddenly convinced him, after Edmure had been talking with Tom Sevenstrings.

 

When Ryman threatened to hang Edmure, Brynden still refused to surrender RR and Jeyne Westerling. Edmure is the closest family he has left. And yet, he takes his oath to Robb and the protection of the wife of a dead king OVER the life of his nephew.

 

With all that's going on in the background in the RL, only those 2 sworn men taking the black is significant, especially in light of the fact that Brynden obviously thought his oath to protect the wife of a dead king over the Tully family. And he is still bound by that oath, to rescue her from the escort on the road that is intending to go to CR. And we will see him attempt to do just that in WoW.

 

He utterly despises Lannisters, and as long as Sansa is not officially unwed to Tyrion, I doubt any Northerner or RL-er still loyal to the late Robb Stark will back her.

 

And while he followed Lysa to the Vale, once she was widowed he was out of there ASAP. He chooses his own to follow, and they usually are men; men he respects.

 

BTW - if it were possible I'd wish Arya to be the queen of the North. But GRRM writes what he wants, and all the signs point to the Blackfish honoring the will and wishes of Robb Stark.

 

Excellent write up on the BF, though I'm not sure about the bolded part. I do not think the men part is actually accurate. He did follow Lysa to the Vale and afterwards he followed Catleyn, before he could be impressed by any battles Rob hadn't won yet. 

I just think he didn't like the person Lisa had become, nor the way her son was turning out, the BF doesn't look kindly on weakness. 

[nyser1]

I actually think the Blackfish doth protest too much here. The Blackfish, being the closest thing Robb had to a Hand, almost certainly knew that Robb named Jon as his heir, even if he wasn't present for the actual will-signing. As such, it's in his interest to feign a disconnect with and distrust of Jon. If people think that Robb's bannermen intend to crown Jon or rally behind him, that gives them motivation to attack Jon or try to kill him. The Blackfish putting on a show for Jaime's benefit means that the Lannisters won't consider Jon to be in league with the Blackfish or anyone else, and will for the time being leave him alone.

 

Thanks Apple Martini, I never thought of this as well (and like the idea).

 

Her fear was about Jon betraying the Starks.

I don't see how she got that right. When did Jon ever betray the Starks?

 

HE, IS, NOT HER SON! YARGH!!! $%^^%$!

 

But in all seriousness I completely agree.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robb was dead, and yet Brynden refused to surrender Jeyne Westerling, the person he had sworn to protect to Robb, his queen. And he only surrendered, after Edmure somehow suddenly convinced him, after Edmure had been talking with Tom Sevenstrings.

 

The Freys and Lannisters were after Riverrun, that was what he was refusing to surrender.

 

Edmure didnt need to convince him, once Edmure was back in Riverrun he was the legal ruler, it was his decision to submit.

 

 

"Your uncle is an old man. Valiant, yes, but the best part of his life is done. He has no bride to grieve for him, no children to defend. A good death is all the Blackfish can hope for . . . but you have years remaining, Edmure. And you are the rightful lord of House Tully, not him. Your uncle serves at your pleasure. The fate of Riverrun is in your hands."

Edmure stared. "The fate of Riverrun . . ."

"Yield the castle and no one dies. Your smallfolk may go in peace or stay to serve Lord Emmon.

 

Jaime threatens the life of Edmures unborbn child and the allows him back into Riverrun to do his bidding.

 

When Ryman threatened to hang Edmure, Brynden still refused to surrender RR and Jeyne Westerling. Edmure is the closest family he has left. And yet, he takes his oath to Robb and the protection of the wife of a dead king OVER the life of his nephew.

 

I'm not sure why you are focused on that. it was Riverrun they were demanding. Sure, Jeyne would go into their custody along with Edmure but in AFFC there are no demands for Brynden to give up Jeyne.

 

With all that's going on in the background in the RL, only those 2 sworn men taking the black is significant, especially in light of the fact that Brynden obviously thought his oath to protect the wife of a dead king over the Tully family. And he is still bound by that oath, to rescue her from the escort on the road that is intending to go to CR. And we will see him attempt to do just that in WoW.

This seems like a case of 2+2= k

 

Not everyone who takes the Black is on some kind of conspiracy to serve King Jon Snow. Especially two men who have never met Jon Snow and were not even that close with Robb as they stayed at Riverrun while Robb was campaigning away.
 

He utterly despises Lannisters, and as long as Sansa is not officially unwed to Tyrion, I doubt any Northerner or RL-er still loyal to the late Robb Stark will back her.

The Riverlanders have more reason to back her, who is part Tully, than they have Jon Snow who is a bastard, a northerner and is committed to the Nights Watch.

 

The idea that the Riverlanders are desperate to restart a war that has devastated their land for some bastard they have never met is pretty suspect. I can buy that many Northerners would back him over Sansa but not the Blackfish or the Riverland nobles.

And while he followed Lysa to the Vale, once she was widowed he was out of there ASAP. He chooses his own to follow, and they usually are men; men he respects.

That is not true at all. He leaves because the Riverlands is being attacked, 6 monthst after Arryn is dead.

[Whitering]

Damn straight! The Tullys haven't done anything for TWOIAF kinda like The French & Canadians in our world.

Oh screw you, I thought you said French Canadians and agreed, then you lumped all Canadian in with the French...lol, you suck.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

I like apple martini's idea about Blackfish being in on some sort of secret "Snow" plot, if you will.

 

But even if that's not the case, why should Brynden Tully have any love for a boy he's never met? Especially when his only knowledge of the person comes from someone he loved very dearly. And if you read the opening quote again, Tully also mentions Theon Greyjoy. I think it's clear he's saying that Cat didn't trust Theon, and look what happened. So why should he trust Jon Snow?

 

I wouldn't call it "venomous." Catelyn is a good woman, with faults like any other human being. If anything, Catelyn probably saved Jon's life. Her distaste toward him all but confirmed him as a bastard in the eyes of everyone outside the Stark family and within. If Jon was actually Lyanna & Rhaegar's son and Catelyn knew, there's a small chance that the secret might have got out. 

 

And who knows what Robert might have done.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Damn straight! The Tullys haven't done anything for TWOIAF kinda like The French & Canadians in our world.

 

Yeah, who's Napoleon anyway?

[Whitering]

 

Yeah, who's Napoleon anyway?

God, one of the two examples French people have, it's him or Joan, all the time...

[DanïelNorth]

Brynden will probably want to hear about Jon himself before choosing to team up with him or try something reckless and try to get Edmure free together with the Bwb and get revenge on the Frey's.

 

He seems like a down to earth guy who wants to plan his "Last Stand" or "Swan Song" so to speak. One last attempt of vengeance to those who wronged his family and honor.

 

Though he will probably have Catelyn's words in the back of his mind, he will probably want to see it for himself.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

God, one of the two examples French people have, it's him or Joan, all the time...

 

Well considering that Napoleon's influence on modern Europe is pretty substantial, I'd say he's a good example.

 

Louis Pasteur, Robespierre & Danton, King Louis XIV, Toulouse Latrec, Victor Hugo, Alexandre Dumas, and yes Joan of Arc as well. All other examples I could have used, but I figured most people have heard of Napoleon.

[Caspoi]

Tyrell_like_Squirrel@ Don't forget Charlemagne.