Catelyn's venomous impact on Blackfish

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Wow, Catelyn is such a wanton mistress of the night for possibly sharing (since I agree with Apple Martini about Blackfish being doth protest too much) her hurt and resentment about his husband's bastard with a man she considered to be a second father figure. How dare she share feelings, if she ever actually did? Ugh. Everything is her fault. Including the Red Wedding... and the Blackfyre Rebellion.

[SeanF]

Wow, Catelyn is such a wanton mistress of the night for possibly sharing (since I agree with Apple Martini about Blackfish being doth protest too much) her hurt and resentment about his husband's bastard with a man she considered to be a second father figure. How dare she share feelings, if she ever actually did? Ugh. Everything is her fault. Including the Red Wedding... and the Blackfyre Rebellion.

I've always enjoyed threads about Catelyn. She arouses such mixed, and passionate, feelings among readers.

[David Selig]

The Lannisters have cause to mingle in the affairs of the watch considering Stannis is up there and is using the Wall as his home base for the time being. Regardless of what Brynden knew about Robb's intentions to name him heir, he'd have to be really dumb not to have an ounce of suspicion about how Jon became LC after only serving a couple of years and when there were other candidates who had been around for a while, especially since it's pretty clear to everyone the Lannisters have cause to mingle in the affairs of the watch. The news is also delivered by a Lannister, which just increase the suspicion. It's not that the Lannisters would pay attention to Jon before he became LC, but that their interest in the watch and Jon's position would understandably give cause someone to pause and wonder what's going on.

Jon selling out to the Lannisters and getting elected LC with their backing is more likely than what actually happened.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

I've always enjoyed threads about Catelyn. She arouses such mixed, and passionate, feelings among readers.

I've been a lurker on this platform longer than I've been a member and quite frankly, I'm really at loss to explain just why most people here seem to despise Catelyn (and House Tully!) so much. (Oh, except Blackfish because he's "badass" amirite?)

[Bryden Tully]

My namesake didn't want to take the Black-there's work that needs doing south of the wall

[LordStoneheart]

How is that an insult. Bastards are not a rare species in Westeros

Because Eddard married into House Tully as an alliance and let it be known that he was raising a bastard child in front his Tully wife. From Riverrun, that probably looked pretty insulting, disregarding RLJ.

[SeanF]

I've been a lurker on this platform longer than I've been a member and quite frankly, I'm really at loss to explain just why most people here seem to despise Catelyn (and House Tully!) so much. (Oh, except Blackfish because he's "badass" amirite?)

Tower of the Hand readers voted her the 8th most hated character, ahead of people like Ramsay Bolton.

[LordStoneheart]

Tower of the Hand readers voted her the 8th most hated character, ahead of people like Ramsay Bolton.

Now I know what website I'm never going to. *harumph*

[Les Météores D]

Tower of the Hand readers voted her the 8th most hated character, ahead of people like Ramsay Bolton.

Maybe some young people who identify with Jon also associate Cat with their unlikable stepmother. Or maybe it's because Cat doesn't wield a sword and doesn't cut Lannisters right and left.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Tower of the Hand readers voted her the 8th most hated character, ahead of people like Ramsay Bolton.

Wow. :bang: Sometimes I really think I missed a book where Catelyn burned down Winterfell.

[SeanF]

Maybe some young people who identify with Jon also associate Cat with their unlikable stepmother. Or maybe it's because Cat doesn't wield a sword and doesn't cut Lannisters right and left.

It's quite common for people to identify Catelyn with a step-mother they dislike. Added to which, she's not a very easy character to warm to (given the way her life goes from bad to disastrous, it's not surprising she isn't a barrel of laughs).

But on reflection, she's really one of the nicest people in the books.

[LordBloodraven]

Rape and sexual abuse are totally justified, you guys!

Come on now!! Where did I justify rape and sexual abuse? Falia being raised as a servant at Lord Hewett's castle won't make her in any way empathetic or friendly with him and his legitimate family.

Unless Falia had been sexually abused by her father, step-mother, and step-sisters, her revenge on them was grossly disproportionate.

Admittedly, Lord Hewett was a fool to keep her at the castle as a servant, given the resentment that was sure to develop.

It's not about revenge here. Falia just doesn't care.

Because Eddard married into House Tully as an alliance and let it be known that he was raising a bastard child in front his Tully wife. From Riverrun, that probably looked pretty insulting, disregarding RLJ.

Anyway, Eddard never did anything showing that he was going to set aside the Tully alliance. And by the time of AFFC, Jon Snow has been at the Wall, committed for life. Nothing to fear for the Tullys

[SeanF]

Come on now!! Where did I justify rape and sexual abuse? Falia being raised as a servant at Lord Hewett's castle won't make her in any way empathetic or friendly with him and his legitimate family.

It's not about revenge here. Falia just doesn't care.

Falia suggested to Euron that the women be stripped naked. Then one of her step-sisters was raped. The one followed naturally from the other.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Not to mention the fact that he's met Ser Rodrik Cassel, and others in and around Winterfell who might have been able to offer another opinion on Jon, we never see him in a discussion with any such person, but we never see Cat mention Jon in his hearing. The Blackfish might think of Robb as a poor judge of character, but he's bound to realize that Cat's opinion of Jon is rather prejudiced, I may misremember, but I think he saw her reaction to Mya? With the lack of reliable information, the Blackfish may choose to reserve judgment on Jon. In the end, I don't believe the Blackfish's declaration of mistrust for Jon is truthful.

:agree:

He strikes me as a realist, he would recognise that a woman is not the best judge of character for her husband's bastard, he would probably reserve judgement on Jon until he met him, since he know's Robb can overlook things about people (Theon) and that Catelyn can behave irrationally and is certainly not to be trusted in the matter of Jon Snow.

I agree with the idea that either BF knows Jon is the heir and wants to deflect suspicion away from him, or just doesn't want to draw Lannister attention to the brother of his king. After all where is the logic that Jon Snow somehow defected to the Lannisters whilst on the wall? It doesn't even make sense that Tywin/the Lannisters would care who lord commander is, that both Cersei and Tywin care about who the LC is so much boggles me.

Edit: Wouldn't make more sense that Jon became Lord Commander with Stannis' backing? After all Stannis is the one who is actually at the wall, who would definitely care who the lord commander is, and who would pick someone loyal to him, even if that loyalty is just because he hate's Stannis' enemies. The idea that Tywin was involved in electing Jon has no logical basis.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

i dont think Robb and Blackfish would have been discussed about heir when he left because all those discussions about naming an heir started when Robb hears about Balon's death and his brothers fighting for the claim among themselves ...so i dont see them actually talked about it when they were in Riverrun

i like your view on Blackfish putting on a show if he knows jon is the heir ....but i would like to think Robb sends word to blackfish once he had made the will and sends a copy to him

and coming to the op i think Cat's fear of jon is mainly due to the history of wars in Westros due to the bastards of Aegon ...and personally hate him because like she says seeing jon she comes to remember that Ned had slept with another women which shames her

i never liked Cat treatment to Jon ...ever since how quick and ruthlessly she dismissed the talk about jon being stayed at winterfell and happy about jont sent NW but i can understand where her dislike comes from

The problems with the comparison to the Blackfyre pretenders are numerous and obvious.

First of all king Aegon was an idiot and was probably trolling the realm when he gave Blackfyre to Daemon and legitimised his bastards, Ned isn't the smartest but Catelyn must understand he would never do anything like that.

Daemon reached such popularity because Daeron alienated many of his lords by making peace with dorne and allowing dornish influence at court. Like Jon with the wildlings he is making the right decision and opting for peace, but the conservatives dislike those they see as the enemy and will look for alternatives.

Daeron was an intellectual and not a fighter Daemon was, causing many great knights to fall in behind Daemon, the problem is Robb and Jon are both competent fighters, Robb is not likely to alienate the northern lords.

Daemon didn't just rebel, he was loyal to his father and brother for many years until Bittersteel and Fireball convinced him he could be king, he didn't suddenly rebel because all bastards are treacherous and greedy, or some other nonsense.

Finally, Daemon rebelled because he wanted to marry his sister and was denied her, kind of makes it an invalid analogy.

Another thing of note, the Dance of the Dragons was probably more destructive than all 5 Blackfyre rebellions combined, by westeros stepmother logic this means that elder daughters are the greatest threat to a trueborn son.

[A wilding]

In the end, I don't believe the Blackfish's declaration of mistrust for Jon is truthful.

Not only that, but very little that the Blackfish says to Jaime in that parley has much to do with the truth.

The Blackfish knows Jaime as a hothead who acts before he thinks (knowing nothing about the changes in him since he lost his hand). It seems clear that everything he says is designed to provoke, with the aim of pushing Jaime into doing something rash and stupid, perhaps, for example, personally leading an attack on Riverrun that would be likely to get him killed.

The clincher for me is that the moment Jaime starts to wonder why the Blackfish has even bothered to come to the parley, the Blackfish abruptly terminates it.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Because Eddard married into House Tully as an alliance and let it be known that he was raising a bastard child in front his Tully wife. From Riverrun, that probably looked pretty insulting, disregarding RLJ.

It seems like male infidelity isn't a big deal, so I don't see why a Lord keeping his bastard around would be considered an insult to anyone but the wife, even if it is uncommon. I don't think you have to think of that, or the stigma of bastardy, to understand why BF has a low opinion of Jon, anyway. BF doesn't know Jon that well (have they even met?), so naturally, he's going trust his niece's judgement of him.

It's quite common for people to identify Catelyn with a step-mother they dislike. Added to which, she's not a very easy character to warm to (given the way her life goes from bad to disastrous, it's not surprising she isn't a barrel of laughs).

But on reflection, she's really one of the nicest people in the books.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't like Cat, as a person, because she's self-righteous and incredibly judgmental, even towards her own family. And she's that way far more often than she is nice (actually, I can't even think of an instance where she is nice). It's not because I identify her with any particular figure.

[SeanF]

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't like Cat, as a person, because she's self-righteous and incredibly judgmental, even towards her own family. And she's that way far more often than she is nice (actually, I can't even think of an instance where she is nice). It's not because I identify her with any particular figure.

I think her final meeting with Jon, and her arrest of Tyrion, predispose people to dislike her. (I did at first). It's easy, on one's first read, to find her to be stuck-up and stupid. Add to that, she has a cold, reserved, personality, and her chapters are often pretty depressing to read.

But, there's plenty of evidence for her being at heart, a kind and compassionate person. Wanting to bury Tyrion's servant (Tyrion doesn't spare him a thought); tipping sailors personally, so they don't get cheated; trying to make peace, and forego vengeance, so that other women don't have to endure the same bereavement she did; her sympathy for Cersei, who she has every reason to hate; risking execution, to save her daughters by releasing Jaime.

[jon rhaegar stark]

The problems with the comparison to the Blackfyre pretenders are numerous and obvious.

First of all king Aegon was an idiot and was probably trolling the realm when he gave Blackfyre to Daemon and legitimised his bastards, Ned isn't the smartest but Catelyn must understand he would never do anything like that.

Daemon reached such popularity because Daeron alienated many of his lords by making peace with dorne and allowing dornish influence at court. Like Jon with the wildlings he is making the right decision and opting for peace, but the conservatives dislike those they see as the enemy and will look for alternatives.

Daeron was an intellectual and not a fighter Daemon was, causing many great knights to fall in behind Daemon, the problem is Robb and Jon are both competent fighters, Robb is not likely to alienate the northern lords.

Daemon didn't just rebel, he was loyal to his father and brother for many years until Bittersteel and Fireball convinced him he could be king, he didn't suddenly rebel because all bastards are treacherous and greedy, or some other nonsense.

Finally, Daemon rebelled because he wanted to marry his sister and was denied her, kind of makes it an invalid analogy.

Another thing of note, the Dance of the Dragons was probably more destructive than all 5 Blackfyre rebellions combined, by westeros stepmother logic this means that elder daughters are the greatest threat to a trueborn son.

first i didnt do any comparison between the Blackfyre and Jon ..and i agree that there is no comparison between them ....

and about the bolded part i will answer

i merely pointed out that is what Cat fears when a Bastard is legitamized ..in this case Rob was trying to legitamize jon not Ned and this is what she says

Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”

“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”

“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon

so u see what i was refering to when i said that ..

iam not Cat hater but lets be fair she did not love jon and its understandable because there are things a person cant forgive or forget and a bastard of Ned is such thing to her

[~DarkHorse~]

Hmm, Cat hate again... :bang:

She is a flawed character, even her greatest strength (motherhood) has it's limits. That is what makes her such a well rounded and realistic character.

I hate when people turn her into the 'evil step-mother' because she did not love her husbands bastard. However, other people make Jon seem like the unreasonable one. Giving her treatment of Jon, she was perfectly justifiable in her position but it is not an attractive or mature trait. The end.