Why is Jon more popular than Daenerys?

[Julia Martell]

Jon is extremely entitled in the first half of AGOT. He threw a massive tantrum because he wasn't allowed to sit at the royal table with the handful of most powerful people on the continent.

Are you being sarcastic because, like, the opposite happened.

This is my point, I guess. A minority of Dany's detractors do seem to be harder on here because of the gender, even if it's only subconsciously. My general impression is that they tend to blame her mistakes on her character rather than on her circumstances, saying it's because she's insane, or ignorant, or arrogant, whereas they tend to blame Jon's mistakes on the inflexibility of the other NW members, or on the fact that he's in an impossible situation.

The way I see it, you can make the opposite argument for either character, saying that Dany has good intentions and as found herself in an impossible situation with people who are set in their ways and is doing her best, and that Jon just refuses to consider the others' point of view, but for whatever reason people don't do that.

Does that have anything to do with gender? Maybe. For some people. Most people who are Dany-detractors think she's just cross whatever line they have for acceptable behaviour in this world, while Jon has not. Which I think is fair enough.

[SeanF]

Shouldn't Stannis be the most unpopular character then? Burning to death is one of the most painful ways to die

Stannis gets plenty of criticism for burning people alive. As he should.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

Jon is extremely entitled in the first half of AGOT. He threw a massive tantrum because he wasn't allowed to sit at the royal table with the handful of most powerful people on the continent.

You are entirely correct about that, but that wasn't taught to him, that was his nature as a green boy. Hopefully he took Aemons advice and killed that child-ish part of himself.

[sj4iy]

IMO - Most of the fandom become fanatics for Jon once they figure out (or read about) RLJ. They assume this sets him up to be the savior of everything (AA, PTWP, Lightbringer, Song of Ice and Fire personified, Jesus, etc).

I'm with Parris on this one "You think George would do something as basic as Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?"

Uh, yes. It's pretty much a given at this point.

I liked Jon before I figured it out myself, thanks.

[PirateVergo]

Dany is not in an impossible situation, she has fucking dragons, an army and the best knight of westeros on her side.

If she can't rule correctly it's because she is bad at that.

Give the same thing to Jon, he wouldn't have been killed by Bowen Marsh and the Bolton would be dead.

[The Marquis de Leech]

And you should all be voting Bolton anyway.

Indeed.

I'd quite happily agree that Daenerys is a greyer character than Jon. Because, oddly enough, my preferences regarding any given character are not necessarily tied to where they sit on the moral spectrum.

Daenerys, as a literary creation, is simply superior to Jon in every respect.

[Modelex]

No, not only. But that specific government fell because it was unstable and weak, yes.

You know why we don't have information about the council or what it did or tried to do? Because Dany doesn't have that information. She set up this government, and has absolutely no idea what it's doing, how it's doing it or how effective it is. And that government collapses. So, yeah. Still blaming her.

It fell because Cleon was savvy enough to manipulate the one fear the freedmen had. He also likely promised to do what he eventually did, which is to put the master's in chains as it revenge tactic. Thus, such feelings in people enslaved and abused for years likely overcame sense. Not because this government was weak. But yes it could have been as weak as you say. The point is, much like "questioned sharply" , we have no idea of the specifics of what went on.

And Dany has no information because she is in Meereen, and thus needs envoys to travel a long way to provide her with any. There are no maesters with ravens where she is. Also if you persist in blaming Dany, then I still don't see why she should be blamed for Astapor being ruined as that is a chain of events impossible to predict and is the doing of Cleon not her.

Look the concept is not hard to grasp. If you go into some city and destroy all civil authority, it's likely that some group of thugs will take the place over, unless you restore law and order. Apple is right about this.

She didn't destroy all civil authority and then leave, she installed a new government to restore law and order.

[OldGimletEye]

You are entirely correct about that, but that wasn't taught to him, that was his nature as a green boy. Hopefully he took Aemons advice and killed that child-ish part of himself.

Also, doesn't Donal Noye give him an ass chewing and John pretty much accepts what Donal says to him?

[Queen of Whores]

Actually no. I have given many measured examples myself. You fail to read them.

Gender colours judgements of fictional characters in power every bit as much as it colours judgements of real people in power.

I very much hope you are not trying to pretend here that sexism does not exist, in rather obvious ways in real world politics and the way female candidates are portrayed and questioned. And if you acknowledge it exists, I hope you are not blind to the fact that readers of books like ASOIAF are also people with similar views.

Some people provide measured criticism of Dany.

Very large number simply pan her, call her a set of very familiar names to every woman who has ever held a position of authority, and wish he to die painfully. Please stop pretending that those sorts of posts do not exist in extremely high numbers.

Did you just actually accuse me of saying sexism doesn't exist? I'm so fucking done discussing with you anyway, but are you seriously accusing me of that, all because I don't agree with your stupid arguments?

As to your whole "sexism, sexism everywhere!" argument, I actually have not ever seen any posts on this forum saying that Dany is a bad ruler or bad person because she's a woman. This seems like a strawman argument to me.

[PirateVergo]

I'm with Parris on this one "You think George would do something as basic as Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?"

George's wife said this?

If yes I would like to have a source.

[Snow Dottir]

You missed my point. I'm not comparing celebrities to the characters of ASOIAF, just the way people react to them.

I hear what you're saying

Maybe some people really just want Dany to fail because she's Young, Beautiful and has Dragons?

I've always felt she's pretty cool. not my favorite favorite but I really liked her storyline w/ the Dothraki. (who also suprisingly to me get rabid hate)

The double standards of society bleed over into our fantasies it seems.

I've felt bad for her. I've thought she made alot of major mistakes.

I still think she's cool.

I like Jon slightly more because that's obviously my favorite part of the entire series...Winter is here!!!!

[Ingelheim]

Indeed.

I'd quite happily agree that Daenerys is a greyer character than Jon. Because, oddly enough, my preferences regarding any given character are not necessarily tied to where they sit on the moral spectrum.

Daenerys, as a literary creation, is simply superior to Jon in every respect.

A morally grey character is not necessarily a better character than a black or a white one, let's keep that in mind.

[Modelex]

No one on here is holding Ned up as some paragon of political genius, so nice straw man you've got there. And again, I'm pretty sure this thread is about Jon and Dany, isn't it?

They are holding up Jon's methods, which are Ned's methods as the paragon of justice. Beheading a man, looking him in the eyes, all that jazz. If Dany is not doing that, she is unjust

[sj4iy]

Also, doesn't Donal Noye give him an ass chewing and John pretty much accepts what Donal says too him?

Yup. Perhaps Dany would have done better to have someone like that chewing her ass out instead of treating her as infallible.

[Queen of Whores]

They are holding up Jon's methods, which are Ned's methods as the paragon of justice. Beheading a man, looking him in the eyes, all that jazz. If Dany is not doing that, she is unjust

What she does is unjust on soooo many more levels than the whole "look into their eyes" thing.

[OldGimletEye]

She didn't destroy all civil authority and then leave, she installed a new government to restore law and order.

Well how nice of her. But try to set up a government without any police forces or military. And it does take a while before a new regime is accepted as being legitimate.

[Modelex]

Dany is not in an impossible situation, she has fucking dragons, an army and the best knight of westeros on her side.

If she can't rule correctly it's because she is bad at that.

Give the same thing to Jon, he wouldn't have been killed by Bowen Marsh and the Bolton would be dead.

Dragons, armies and Barristan Selmy are hardly the tools of effective ruling.

What she needed was a Tyrion or a Tywin. They would have been much more useful than those things

[Hippocras]

Did you just actually accuse me of saying sexism doesn't exist? I'm so fucking done discussing with you anyway, but are you seriously accusing me of that, all because I don't agree with your stupid arguments?

As to your whole "sexism, sexism everywhere!" argument, I actually have not ever seen any posts on this forum saying that Dany is a bad ruler or bad person because she's a woman. This seems like a strawman argument to me.

Yeah, because sexism is such an overt thing that the only people who are sexist are the ones who outright declare it.

Rolling eyes.

Your post feels quite trollish actually. What is the point of calling me stupid? Why misrepresent what I said so blatantly? Your goal is what here? To pretend sexism does have anything to do with large numbers of posters calling Dany a crazy bitch? With failure to get over her mistakes while forgiving other characters for similar mistakes and even praising them? What is your point?

I said sexism is a huge part of why Dany hate is so prevalent and heated. It doesn't have to be YOUR reason for disliking Dany's character if you are providing measured criticism. The point is that it exists and it very much affects discussions about Dany.

[David Selig]

Umm, no he didn't. He said he was happy to be sitting where he was....

He cracked a tantrum when Benjen kept insisting he was a child and shouldn't join the Watch. Please get it right.

Jon was obviously lying to himself, his actions showed he was quite bitter about the snub throughout the whole chapter.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

She didn't destroy all civil authority and then leave, she installed a new government to restore law and order.

Then merrily rode off to her next conquest without a second thought. Installing a government after you've smashed the shit out of the infrastructure of the city, denounced it's culture, declared large chunks of it's practices illegal, and left no security to enforce these policies, then summarily washing your hands of it cannot logically be argued to be the fault or failure of the government who was dealt that hand. Could their role have played some part in it? Sure. But Astapor was perfectly capable of running itself prior to Dany involving herself in what she believed should be and shouldn't be acceptable in the Astapori culture.