Why is Jon more popular than Daenerys?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You and I have both attempted to tie Dany's actions to recent world events, and this is another point that can be tied directly back to both. Nobody thinks that America is blameless in the rise of ISIS in Iraq currently. The government left behind was flawed after the withdraw of troops, and led directly towards the ongoing situation. It's a fair criticism of the US, and remains so in Dany's case.

I have to wonder how well-read some of these people are in history, government and current events. As I said, I work in government. And it is incredibly easy for me to tell that Dany really is doing atrociously, and it has nothing to do with her gender. She'd be just as terrible of a governor if you made her a man and kept everything else the same.

[FireAndBlood.]

Uh, no. She indiscriminately had others choose 163 people to kill without any proof at all that those men committed the crimes she was executing them for.

Slynt committed insubordination twice, and once in public. He was most definitely guilty of what he was executed for.

They are not remotely the same at all, yet you are trying to make them equal to each other.

If you try and excuse Slynt's execution by saying that it was perfectly acceptable by the standards of the Night's Watch then I'm allowed to do the same with Dany's crucifixions because, by the standards of Slaver's Bay, they were perfectly acceptable.

[Cas Stark]

So the ones who actually besieged the city and slaughtered and enslaved the occupants in ADWD had no part in it whatsoever?

She set it all in motion by her failure to put a reasonable governing structure in place. Full Stop.

She could have stayed in Astapor herself, she could have left a portion of the unsullied there to keep order, but she is too fucking selfish and short sighted for that. So she left a doomed to fail powerless council that was of course overthrown and then, to compound her guilt, refused to intervene to restore order and never did intervene to restore order, cause now she's busy with the rest of the messes she created after she left Astapor, LOL.

[The guy from the Vale]

Because slavery can usually be abolished peacefully in Appletini's experience

If slavery was abolished for good, you might have a point. But Dany herself compromised with the slavers in the end and profits from the Meereenese slave trade. Again, abolishing slavery is all good and well, but you also need to have a plan about what comes after. The best comparison for what Dany accomplished, in the real world, would be Haiti - hardly a particularly stable or rich nation.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dany couldn't foresee what happened to Astapor when she left.

Jon couldn't foresee which of his men would attack him and when.

Now, I'll go and eat.

[Hippocras]

Dany couldn't foresee what happened to Astapor when she left.Jon couldn't foresee which of his men would attack him and when.Now, I'll go and eat.

See how easy balance is? :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So governments can only fail because they are unstable and weak? Governments are overthrown and rulers deposed for a wide variety of reasons, with competency not entering the equation in some cases. Cleon used people's paranoia to seize power, and we have zero details about how good this council was, or what measures they took to combat Cleon's campaign. They could have done all that was humanly possible, but you castigate Dany's appointment of these men even with this dearth of information.

No, not only. But that specific government fell because it was unstable and weak, yes.

You know why we don't have information about the council or what it did or tried to do? Because Dany doesn't have that information. She set up this government, and has absolutely no idea what it's doing, how it's doing it or how effective it is. And that government collapses. So, yeah. Still blaming her.

[Queen of Whores]

See how easy balance is? :)

So the only acceptable way to you to criticise Dany is to also criticise someone else? Nice system there.

[OldGimletEye]

So governments can only fail because they are unstable and weak? Governments are overthrown and rulers deposed for a wide variety of reasons, with competency not entering the equation in some cases. Cleon used people's paranoia to seize power, and we have zero details about how good this council was, or what measures they took to combat Cleon's campaign. They could have done all that was humanly possible, but you castigate Dany's appointment of these men even with this dearth of information.

Look the concept is not hard to grasp. If you go into some city and destroy all civil authority, it's likely that some group of thugs will take the place over, unless you restore law and order. Apple is right about this.

[Modelex]

Yeah, um ... that isn't justice. You can call it "sending a message" if you want, but please don't act like it's in any way a coherent application of justice.

I never called it justice. In fact, what is and isn't just is purely subjective anyhow

Sometimes the "unjust" thing is what is the right thing. If the oh so perfect and noble Eddard was more like Dany, Westeros will have suffered a hell of a lot less I'll tell you that

[Cas Stark]

If you try and excuse Slynt's execution by saying that it was perfectly acceptable by the standards of the Night's Watch then I'm allowed to do the same with Dany's crucifixions because, by the standards of Slaver's Bay, they were perfectly acceptable.

Sure, that's why I don't like her any more because she has the moral compass of a slaver from slaver's bay, she has absolutely degraded herself and brought herself down to their level by her atrocities.

Jon has the moral compass of a brother from the Night's Watch and a son of Ned Stark.

I will take Jon Snow over slaver's bay every day.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If the oh so perfect and noble Eddard was more like Dany, Westeros will have suffered a hell of a lot less I'll tell you that

No one on here is holding Ned up as some paragon of political genius, so nice straw man you've got there. And again, I'm pretty sure this thread is about Jon and Dany, isn't it?

[sj4iy]

If you try and excuse Slynt's execution by saying that it was perfectly acceptable by the standards of the Night's Watch then I'm allowed to do the same with Dany's crucifixions because, by the standards of Slaver's Bay, they were perfectly acceptable.

...yes, it was perfectly acceptable by the standards of Slaver's Bay. Which just so happens to be the same standards she despises and claims to be saving them from in the first place when she sacks all of the cities.

Jon didn't overthrow the NW, take over for its 'own good' and claim to change things for the better, only to use the same tactics that he was claiming to get rid of.

Again, you're trying to compare two incomparable situations.

[PirateVergo]

Dany = hypocrite.

She has no right to crucify slavers when she loved and did everything in her power to save her rapist, mass murderer husband.

[Queen of Whores]

Dany = hypocrite.

She has no right to crucify slavers when she loved and did everything in her power to save her rapist, mass murderer husband.

But he truly did luurrrvv her!!!

[Kienn]

IMO - Most of the fandom become fanatics for Jon once they figure out (or read about) RLJ. They assume this sets him up to be the savior of everything (AA, PTWP, Lightbringer, Song of Ice and Fire personified, Jesus, etc).

I'm with Parris on this one "You think George would do something as basic as Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?"

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

See how easy balance is? :)

Except it's not balance at all.

Jon failing to sniff out a conspiracy isn't remotely balanced to Dany's failure in bringing about a change in culture she forced upon Slaver's Bay through a war on their culture.

[butterbumps!]

lol, what a beautiful thread. It's an exercise in trying to to fit round pegs in square holes. Dany and Jon have two very different skill sets. You want the status quo overturned, call Dany. You want an administrator, get Jon on board. A "reformer" just sounds a lot more balanced and less frightening than "revolutionary." I suspect that's really the root of this. Jon represents the compromise between extreme stasis and radical change, as well as the personality types that accompany those themes. So he's easier to stomach.

And you should all be voting Bolton anyway.

[Queen of Whores]

IMO - Most of the fandom become fanatics for Jon once they figure out (or read about) RLJ. They assume this sets him up to be the savior of everything (AA, PTWP, Lightbringer, Song of Ice and Fire personified, Jesus, etc).

I actually dislike R+L=J and would like the story and Jon in general much less if it turned out to be true. I love Jon cause of his firm moral compass and relatable personality, not some dumb prophecy.

[Hippocras]

Nope. We have given SO MANY examples and explanations about why we dislike (or not even dislike) Dany, and yet the best you come up with every time is "...well clearly it's because she's a woman," despite the fact we've shut down this argument every single time.

Actually no. I have given many measured examples myself. You fail to read them.

Gender colours judgements of fictional characters in power every bit as much as it colours judgements of real people in power.

I very much hope you are not trying to pretend here that sexism does not exist, in rather obvious ways in real world politics and the way female candidates are portrayed and questioned. And if you acknowledge it exists, I hope you are not blind to the fact that readers of books like ASOIAF are also people with similar views.

Some people provide measured criticism of Dany.

Very large number simply pan her, call her a set of very familiar names to every woman who has ever held a position of authority, and wish he to die painfully. Please stop pretending that those sorts of posts do not exist in extremely high numbers.