Why is Jon more popular than Daenerys?

[Cas Stark]

I think those are convenient excuses to interpret whatever she does as signs of insanity. It is called looking for faults because one wants to find them. Madness does exist in the Targaryen family tree, but until Dany actually shows signs of madness, which she has not, it is not justified to call her a crazy bitch. Even then the bitch part is not warranted.

I don't think she is going to go crazy, or is crazy, but, being a product of incest, having a father who did go totally insane and having a long history of insanity in your family are not "excuses" they're reasons, indeed, they would be reasons why people might jump to this conclusion, because her back story is full of madness.

I'm not even sure the criticisms of her mooning over Daario can be called sexist, because any ruler who is pre occupied with his or her sex life instead of ruling a war torn plague ridden city on the brink of more disaster...should be criticized. But, there might be at least something here.

It seems more that people wish her actions to be above criticism because she is a woman.

[Tagganaro]

And? You think in any realistic military setting Jon would've been left unpunished for trying to murder a superior officer because he felt insulted? Come on.

Hell,if you try this in the super enlightened US military now and you will probably get 10 years in prison or worse, provoked or not.

He wasn't left unpunished. He was arrested and jailed.

[LordBloodraven]

And? You think in any realistic military setting Jon would've been left unpunished for trying to murder a superior officer because he felt insulted? Come on.

Hell,if you try this in the super enlightened US military now and you will probably get 10 years in prison or worse, provoked or not.

In the US military now, is it legit for a captain to go and insult a private/the private's family when he's under emotional stress and expect him to be stoic all along? Your bias is reeking here, you know you don't have a point but keep trying

[David Selig]

He wasn't left unpunished. He was arrested and jailed.

Seriously? He spent what, 4 hours, in the cell. That is not a punishment, it is not even a slap on the wrist.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It fell because Cleon was savvy enough to manipulate the one fear the freedmen had. He also likely promised to do what he eventually did, which is to put the master's in chains as it revenge tactic. Thus, such feelings in people enslaved and abused for years likely overcame sense. Not because this government was weak. But yes it could have been as weak as you say. The point is, much like "questioned sharply" , we have no idea of the specifics of what went on.

And Dany has no information because she is in Meereen, and thus needs envoys to travel a long way to provide her with any. There are no maesters with ravens where she is. Also if you persist in blaming Dany, then I still don't see why she should be blamed for Astapor being ruined as that is a chain of events impossible to predict and is the doing of Cleon not her.

If you leave an unstable government in power, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict that it's not going to last. It isn't that hard to predict, despite your claim to the contrary.

Again: If the government weren't weak, Cleon wouldn't have been able to exploit that weakness. For the third or fourth time.

Yes, Dany has no information because she's in Meereen. She can't successfully stabilize one city before moving on to the other, and as a result is completely unable to do anything when an earlier city falls. That's kind of the point, and yes, that's still on her.

[Ingelheim]

He's not. He's talking about when Jon attacked Allister Thorne in the chow hall. If Armies killed people for insubordination over fights in chow halls, barracks, or motor pools, those Armies would be empty places.

Sorry but no. When my father was young, (like all Spaniards of that age) he was required to do a year of training with the army. During that year, he met a man who punched an officer in the face for insulting his mother. I assure you that that guy spent a few years in prision for that, although the officer was also punished.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

And? You think in any realistic military setting Jon would've been left unpunished for trying to murder a superior officer because he felt insulted? Come on.

Hell,if you try this in the super enlightened US military now and you will probably get 10 years in prison or worse, provoked or not.

You must not realize that nearly all punishment in the US military is non-judicial, and that it's very rare for anyone to actually go to prison.

It's FAR more common for things to be swept under the rug than it is for people to go to prison.

The max punishment under the UCMJ and the actual punishment doled out are two completely different things.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not even sure the criticisms of her mooning over Daario can be called sexist, because any ruler who is pre occupied with his or her sex life instead of ruling a war torn plague ridden city on the brink of more disaster...should be criticized. But, there might be at least something here.

And I'm pretty sure most people would call, say, Robert Baratheon a shitty ruler for being more preoccupied with whores than with ruling.

[David Selig]

In the US military now, is it legit for a captain to go and insult a private/the private's family when he's under emotional stress and expect him to be stoic all along? Your bias is reeking here, you know you don't have a point but keep trying

Just because you are insulted by someone, you don't have the right to try to murder someone and escape punishment. In the military or outside.

[sj4iy]

I think he's talking about the time when Jon nearly deserted the NW because of his father's death. I have to say he's right about that. If Jon hadn't been Jon, he would have been, at least, arrested.

That wasn't insubordination, though. That was attempted desertion, but as Mormont said, they wouldn't have anyone left if they executed everyone who took off during the night. Pretty sure he was talking about Jon attacking Thorne. But as someone else said, it wasn't Jon's fault that he didn't pay for it, it was Mormont's for letting him get away with it. As I said, Mormont liked Jon and treats him like a son, so Jon gets away with shit he shouldn't have. But Jon isn't Mormont, and he's in a vastly different situation than Mormont was as LC.

[Edd Viper]

And? You think in any realistic military setting Jon would've been left unpunished for trying to murder a superior officer because he felt insulted? Come on.

Hell,if you try this in the super enlightened US military now and you will probably get 10 years in prison or worse, provoked or not.

To be fair, he was punished, and the punishment was going to be much more severe before he saved Jeor Mormont's life - "he was not to leave his cell until the high officers met to decide what was to be done with him," - so it's not really fair to claim he was benefitting from double standards.

[Ingelheim]

Seriously? He spent what, 4 hours, in the cell. That is not a punishment, it is not even a slap on the wrist.

That's not fair. They neeeded Jon to kill Mance. If they hadn't, I'm pretty sure Jon would have been arrested until Stannis had come to the Wall.

[sj4iy]

nm

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Sorry but no. When my father was young, (like all Spaniards of that age) was required to do a year of training with the army. During that year, he met a man who punched an officer in the face. I assure you that that guy spent a few years in prision for that.

And I spent fifteen years and three combat tours in the US Army. I've seen those things both in peacetime and wartime. I've seen them lead to discharge, reprimand, non-judicial punishment including loss of rank and pay, but not once was prison or death ever a result. Perhaps it's different in the Spanish Army, I can't speak on that.

[OldGimletEye]

In the US military now, is it legit for a captain to go and insult a private/the private's family when he's under emotional stress and expect him to be stoic all along? Your bias is reeking here, you know you don't have a point but keep trying

My battalion commander wouldn't have put up with any of his company commanders acting that way.

[Ingelheim]

And I spent fifteen years and three combat tours in the US Army. I've seen those things both in peacetime and wartime. I've seen them lead to discharge, reprimand, non-judicial punishment including loss of rank and pay, but not once was prison or death ever a result. Perhaps it's different in the Spanish Army, I can't speak on that.

It's different, I can tell you that. This happened in the 70s, during the last years of Franco's dictatorship , but in reality, what happened to that man is more comparable to what would happen in a medieval military order as the NW would be.

[Edd Viper]

Just because you are insulted by someone, you don't have the right to try to murder someone and escape punishment. In the military or outside.

Jonny never meant to kill; he only meant to maim, or seriously injure.

[sj4iy]

And I spent fifteen years and three combat tours in the US Army. I've seen those things both in peacetime and wartime. I've seen them lead to discharge, reprimand, non-judicial punishment including loss of rank and pay, but not once was prison or death ever a result. Perhaps it's different in the Spanish Army, I can't speak on that.

Why are we comparing what standards are today to what they were during Jon's time? We know that they aren't remotely the same...and really, it was only a recent development where something that insubordination hasn't been treated as an executable offense.

[butterbumps!]

Well, one thing about Dany is how polarizing she is. As soon as her name is mentioned, we have someone ready to post and bring her actions into context, even when the subject is completely different.

For me, the main difference between Dany and Jon and their plots is that while they both started very vulnerable, Dany was given weapons (not literally) to overcome her weakness: first, she was part of a resurrection ritual that put her on the level of a god in the eyes of her people (yes, that happened, deal with it) and she immediately won their loyalty, even Jorah who wasn't exactly an "uneducated Dothraki". And, there is the dragons. Yes, Jon has Ghost, but Ghost isn't in the level of danger that D, R and V are. And despite the armies and dragons and the magic rebirth, Dany is very vulnerable, lost and lonely, even more than Jon. Having a vulnerable girl owning the most destructive force in Westeros is quite interesting, specially for the reactions she causes: she's perceived for her mistakes when she tries to use her weapons. And when she puts aside her selfish cause (the Throne) for a more selfless (free slavers), she fails and it's the villain.

Then we'll have to wait and see what decisions he takes. Because if we're expecting him to return as the same compassionate kid he was before the stabbing, we're setting up for big disappointment, specially if he ever faces a situation when he needs to put the welfare of many before the welfare of few.

Yes, and I was saying that Dany is so polarizing precisely because she's an extreme. A "revolutionary" is far more extreme than "reformer."

Dany and Jon were given completely different tools on their paths. Dany's been honing her leadership, conquest and destruction skills (and I mean destruction as a good thing, ftr), while Jon's been basically trained to be a king (as well as strategist against the Others).

I don't see Jon-Dany as opposites in-story so much as I see Stannis (and perhaps my pal Roose) and Dany as the opposite sides of the spectrum, on which Jon falls in the center. I think Jon represents less extreme versions of both, hence why he gets more approval.

[Mark Antony]

That's not fair. They neeeded Jon to kill Mance. If they hadn't, I'm pretty sure Jon would have been arrested until Stannis had come to the Wall.

Different incident :)

David is referring to the moment in GoT when Jon tried to stab Thorne for saying "not only a bastard but a traitors bastard"