Why is Jon more popular than Daenerys?

[Daena the Defiant]

Look im not gonna argue with you, because you'd beat me. Im just gonna say I disagree.

By disagreeing, you are endorsing the orderliness and lack of crime that existed in pre-emancipation society. Life is great! Unless you are a slave.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I beg you not to make any judgements about Americans in general based on E-Ro.

Ditto.

[Modelex]

You must be one of those people who doesn't think "robust interrogation" is torture either. It's a euphemism and the person carrying it out (the Shavepate) knows exactly what it means. It's just that the person ordering it done, in this case, Dany, can't stomach the idea of actually using the word "torture" to describe what it is she's doing, because that might necessarily entail thinking about what she's really ordering and what consequences it might have.

I'm not denying that they were physically harmed

But could range from being slapped as I said, to being punched, to being hit with blunt instruments, to being flayed etc.. We have no idea how willing they were to give names. It could have taken a minute until they were singing with no lasting damage done. It should therefore be treated as an ambiguous case of mistreatment not the worst thing in the world. In fact, Qhorin has someone sharply questioned to death, can we therefore say he is the devil incarnate and worse than Dany?

[Trogdor Targaryen]

Dude, that's kind of sexist. I don't like Daenerys but that's not even a reason.

I don't feel that it is sexist. Similarly I feel that if Theon has actually been castrated then he shouldn't sit upon the seastone chair because once he is gone then there will be another uproar over who will be the next lord over the ironborn. It is not sexism at all, I'm just looking with a pragmatic view of the situation. It's not about what feels right now, the end must be the justification for the means, and the end isn't when someone sits on a chair with a crown on their head, the end is when peace is firmly established throughout the realm for an extended period of time.

[FireAndBlood.]

Actually, it seems that Jon is very aware of the danger around him, he simply doesn't get paranoid about it when he's told of it, because really, there's nothing to be done for it. He has a job to do and focuses on that.

He can't be very good at his job if he ignores the dangers around him because "there's nothing to be done for it". That is such BS. The dangers to his person were a direct result of him alienating his subordinates. I'm not saying that what he did with the wildlings was wrong. It obviously wasn't, but how he dealt with the issue with regards to his brothers was awful and that's why they tried to kill him. And now it's likely that without Jon, because he made no effort to protect himself if he knew about the dangers like you say, the NW is going to fall apart and all of his good work will be undone.

Best LC ever.

[Julia Martell]

Then call out specific sexism when you see it, as Ingelheim did, and don't blanket everyone with the same broad brush, the way some people on here are attempting. It's not that difficult.

I was just making a generalization, hoping it could be instructive, especially to newcomers who don't really know about the traditions we've developed on these forums. Feel free to ignore everything I say, Apple. :dunce:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think before you launch a war in Slaver's Bay, you really need to ask yourself whether you have the resources on hand to have a reasonably good chance of winning the conflict. Because, if you don't, then you are likely to make the very people you are trying to help worse off.

This is actually a facet of Just War theory, I believe. You have to go to war with the reasonable chance of succeeding. You don't have to succeed (because someone has to lose, and it's possible for both sides to adhere to Just War principles), just go in with the reasonable chance to do so. Because otherwise you're needlessly expending time and resources and lives for nothing, and that isn't "just."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Actually, it seems that Jon is very aware of the danger around him, he simply doesn't get paranoid about it when he's told of it, because really, there's nothing to be done for it. He has a job to do and focuses on that.

I wouldn't know if that's better. If Jon knows he's going to die and he does nothing about it, then everything he has done previous to that doesn't matter because once he's gone, there is going to be a massacre, which is likely to happen now.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Godamnit onion wtf, are you jealous you didn't come to the zoo or something?

Maybe a little.

[E-Ro]

By disagreeing, you are endorsing the orderliness and lack of crime that existed in pre-emancipation society. Life is great! Unless you are a slave.

Hey now, Im from jersey, you hear me? JERSEY. And here in jersey we fight slavery. Im not endorsing it, I dont think, just saying both situations are equally shitty.

[Daena the Defiant]

The point isn't about how old she is. The point is that she had someone tortured when she had no way of knowing whether they were guilty or innocent.

Actually, the point is exactly that - she was having her 'questioned sharply' to find out what her father knew about that attacks. We don't endorse torture (unless you are Donald Rumseld) as a means of evidence gathering, but the practice is common in the quasi-medievaloid society in the books.

However MY point is that people seize on this episode to show that Dany has children tortured, when the book say no such thing.

[Cas Stark]

Manumission, economic self direction, no involuntary slavery and human sacrifice as public entertainment.

This is classic chicken and the egg argument - to use that group of manumitted weavers. One Dany freed them, they were now in charge of their own destiny and set up shop to earn their own bread as freed women. So yes, their lives were much, much better than being human chattel. The people that owned them, no so much, but they are a slaveowning aristocracy... so, not very sympathetic.

The lawlessness and destruction are being perpetrated by the former slave owning class and it was THEY who had those freedwomen weavers murdered and raped. Blaming Danaerys for that is as stupid as blaming Catelyn for the atrocities perpetrated by Tywin Lannister.

You are actually arguing that you endorse the slave-owning barbaristic society that was pre-Dany because, although it was the locus of human rights abuses visible from space, hey, at least it was orderly and crime free - life is swell, as long as you are not one of the slaves plucked from Naath or a passing Lysene ship and forced to be a miner or prostitute.Life was sooooo much better before she came. In fact, if it wasn't for the terrorist insurgent campaign by the slave-owning class that was deposed by Danaerys, life WOULD be better all around. But hey, since the slave owners are busy trying to wreck the new regime and make life hell for everyone, let''s all think back to the halcyon days when slavery was legal and celebrated. Damn Danaerys Targaryen her efforts to smash a slave culture!

No, the argument is that when you don't have a plan, or the resources, or the personnel to reform a society, the chances are high that you will fail, and, just as we saw with Dany, she failed SPECTACULARLY. Not only is slavery re-established in all three cities, but it was at the cost of tens of thousands of lives, crops destroyed, so starvation is on the horizon and a plague is running rampant. This is making life worse in reality on the basis that the abstract principle of 'freeing the slaves' erases all of the actual, real life human misery caused. And, not only did she fail, but she continued to compound her failure by making one bad decision after another.

"I liberated the city....that is now a smoking ruin devoid of life, but everyone there died free" isn't much of a claim to fame.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

By disagreeing, you are endorsing the orderliness and lack of crime that existed in pre-emancipation society. Life is great! Unless you are a slave.

Oh yay, now we get to see the companion lazy argument to "You only dislike Dany because she's a female." The ever-popular "If you don't like Dany, you must support slavery."

I repeat: Just about everyone who was in Astapor when Dany left it (read: freed people, not slavers) is now dead, dying or re-enslaved. That "closest thing to hell he [Quentyn] ever hoped to see" is the result of Dany's policies and actions. She owns it.

[Queen of Whores]

I wouldn't know if that's better. If Jon knows he's going to die and he does nothing about it, then everything he has done previous to that doesn't matter because once he's gone, there is going to be a massacre, which is likely to happen now.

Well what exactly can he do though? Lop off all their heads or put them in ice cells 'just cause... Uh... I don't trust you guys, no offence." He had no evidence they were going to bloody Julius Caesar him, maybe just a little suspicion they weren't happy.

[E-Ro]

Maybe a little.

I wish you came with us brah brah, you would have at least let me buy a spray fan.

[Daena the Defiant]

By disagreeing, you are endorsing the orderliness and lack of crime that existed in pre-emancipation society. Life is great! Unless you are a slave.

Hey now, Im from jersey, you hear me? JERSEY. And here in jersey we fight slavery. Im not endorsing it, I dont think, just saying both situations are equally shitty.

So she gets opprobrium for pretty much exchanging one dysfunctional society for another, equally dysfunctional one? If that's really your point, then you shouldn't have any criticism at all.

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

Hey, since apparently there is a ton of extra white paint laying around, Tom Sawyer needs to do some whitewashing. Any Dany supporters want to donate some to a good cause? C'mon! Whitewashing is fun! You want to do it!

[David Selig]

You know, I would have taken all this "I dislike Dany because of her morally wrong actions and it has nothing to do with gender" if most of the people coming up with it weren't fans of Jaime, Theon, Tyrion or Stannis, who are just as bad, if not worse morally.

I repeat: Just about everyone who was in Astapor when Dany left it (read: freed people, not slavers) is now dead, dying or re-enslaved.

And who is to blame for that? Cleon and the invaders from the other slaver cities. Not Danaerys who wasn't even there when the city was destroyed in ADWD.

[Hippocras]

The point isn't about how old she is. The point is that she had someone tortured when she had no way of knowing whether they were guilty or innocent.

How do you feel about Jamie? You know, that nice brave hero who happens to have thrown a child from a window with intent to kill?

Or how about the Hound? The lovable bloke who chased down and split in half a child himself.

These characters are praised to the skies, their sins forgiven.

That is the point. No one denies that Dany has made some serious mistakes and some bad moves. The point is that she is panned and wished dead for them, which is a distinct double standard when compared to how people on the forums talk about the Hound, Jamie and Tywin to name a few.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I wish you came with us brah brah, you would have at least let me buy a spray fan.

Haha. No, I think I'd have just let your handler make all of your spending decisions.