The Targaryen Madness Factor/Targaryen Double Standard

[Maid So Fair]

He gave Stannis half(a big chunk) of the Nights Watch land , I don't call that a success.

The situation in his last chapter was directly due to his handling of the wildlings, also not what I would call a success.

He had no choice, Stannis explicitly states that if he doesn't give him the castles he will take them anyway.

Not really, he has handled the wildlings pretty well, as evidenced by the fact that it was not the wildlings that rebelled against him (in fact, the willdlings even seem prepared to help him fight Ramsay). He might not have handled some men of the NW who still insist on playing the game after the board has been turned over as well as he could, but he did try and the main failure was sending those loyal to him away. Let's also not forget that if we take the locusts at face value people tried to kill Dany too.

That being said I think neither Dany nor Jon are particularly prone to madness. Let's face it: if Dany was going to go mad, she would have gone mad on the Dothraki sea (just like Viserys).

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Sure, that situation (Ides) is a result of Jon not planning things carefully enough but also the guys at the NW being total morons. It's not like that event won't backfire on them in a major way.

[Mithras]

He gave Stannis half(a big chunk) of the Nights Watch land , I don't call that a success.

The situation in his last chapter was directly due to his handling of the wildlings, also not what I would call a success.

1. Jon didnot give Stannis lands and castles except the Nightfort. He and Stannis agreed that Jon will take the wildlings and man all the castles on the Wall within a year or Stannis himself will give those castles to his men (and take Jon's head). With one stroke, Jon got himself rid of Stannis and found the men to man the Wall.

2. It has absolutely nothing to do with the handling of the wildlings. The assasination was already being cooked by the incompetent/whiny Bowen and his few followers. The hateful Alliser was pulling the strings. The event that led to the opportunity of the assassination was Mance's mission and that was on Mance and Mel more than Jon. As far as Jon was concerned, Mance's task was to retrieve Arya who was supposed to run away from the Boltons already and moving North. Even without the PL, it looks like the assassination would take place during the Hardhome mission which was going to be led by Jon himself.

[eyenon15]

He had no choice, Stannis explicitly states that if he doesn't give him the castles he will take them anyway.

Not really, he has handled the wildlings pretty well, as evidenced by the fact that it was not the wildlings that rebelled against him (in fact, the willdlings even seem prepared to help him fight Ramsay). He might not have handled some men of the NW who still insist on playing the game after the board has been turned over as well as he could, but he did try and the main failure was sending those loyal to him away. Let's also not forget that if we take the locusts at face value people tried to kill Dany too.

That being said I think neither Dany nor Jon are particularly prone to madness. Let's face it: if Dany was going to go mad, she would have gone mad on the Dothraki sea (just like Viserys).

None of this shows Jon having superior leadership skills to anyone else with power.

Besides maybe Cersei

[Nictarion]

and a lot of wars/betrayals in the future

Lol, this one's my favorite.

Btw, Jon tried to kill a superior officer over an insult. Dany's "wake the dragon" moments were in reaction to the making of the Unsullied, the 163 dead children, 9 of her men killed in one night, etc.

[Mithras]

Lol, this one's my favorite.

Btw, Jon tried to kill a superior officer over an insult. Dany's "wake the dragon" moments were in reaction to the making of the Unsullied, the 163 dead children, 9 of her men killed in one night, etc.

You seem to forget why Jon was so stressed at that incident. What is Dany planning to do with the murderer of her father and those dogs who rebelled against him?

Besides, it is not me but the Undying who told Dany that she will know three big betrayals.

You also have Quaithe functioning as the Varys of Aerys, warning Dany against everyone but herself.

[eyenon15]

There is no plan that I'm aware of.

[Nictarion]

You seem to forget why Jon was so stressed at that incident. What is Dany planning to do with the murderer of her father and those dogs who rebelled against him?

Alliser wasn't responsible for killing Ned. He simply suggested Jon was the bastard of a traitor. Which as far as he knew was true.

[MakeThemBurn]

I feel like mental illness is a topic badly dealt with in general. It comes with a big stigma and people are very eager to brand someone crazy, when in fact mental illnesses have never been more common and some of them, like sociopathy, can actually be of great benefit to succeed in this world of ours. In GRRM's world Tywin Lannister could be easily branded as a sociopath but nobody says the word and he gets respect for getting things done. Yet everyone keeps telling how crazy the Mad King was so readers start to look at Dany in a certain light, looking for every little clue about her madness.

I think GRRM has done great job with the topic. The easiest, and cheesiest way of dealing with the topic would have Dany become insane but the author is more intelligent than that.

Like Tyrion says, Dany has to be proud because she came of nothing. And the place where Dany finds her source of strength and pride is her name. The exchange GRRM wrote in the tv-show (s1ep9) between Dany and Drogo's bloodrider was quite telling about where he's going with this character. At Drogo's dying bed Dany was screaming that she's not worthless, she's a dragon. In order to survive as an underdog, one has to be proud. And this is why I love the whole Mereen arc. The moment Dany stops being an underdog and starts to rule Mereen is the moment she begins to question her name. Her father was called mad, so Dany - like many readers - begins to question her actions from that light. Out of fear of being crazy she looks back at her decision to crucify the masters and keeps asking Selmy whether her father was truly crazy. Many take the exhange between the two (the one where Dany stops Selmy in the lines of "I shouldn't be hearing this") as a sign of her incompetence to deal with her family's skeletons. But I take that as another proof of Dany fearing her state of mental health. This fear is the reason she becomes so weak in Mereen. She literally locks her violent side (her dragons) in the darkness and refuses to use violence for the greater good. Her source of pride is also the source of her insecurities and isn't until the very end of the last book where Dany rids herself of such follies and grows up into an adult.

In my opinion, the insight Daenerys shows in her Mereen chapters proves that she isn't crazy. The only thing that says otherwise is her lack of trust in every single person, but in the world of ice and fire that's propably a virtue. The way in which GRRM has dealt with this character has made her a very personal one to me. As someone who grew up in an alcoholic family, I too went through the insecurities and fears of becoming like my parents. I was scared of having even one drink because I took it as a proof my alcoholism. I feel like I "get" what the author is doing here and gongratule him for doing such a great job with it.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Alliser wasn't responsible for killing Ned. He simply suggested Jon was the bastard of a traitor. Which as far as he knew was true.

He insulted and mocked his dead father. Jon's reaction wasn't smart but it was completely understandable. Using that situation as evidence of any kind of 'madness' is extremely weak.

[Maid So Fair]

None of this shows Jon having superior leadership skills to anyone else with power.

Besides maybe Cersei

That's not what I wrote, that's what you took from it.

Jon has proven himself to be smart, capable, knowledgeable and at times visionary leader. Whether he's the best is debatable (Is there even such a thing as the best leader? Surely that depends on the circumstances and the position he is in?) but denying he's one of the reasonably good ones is just silly.

[Nictarion]

He insulted and mocked his dead father. Jon's reaction wasn't smart but it was completely understandable. Using that situation as evidence of any kind of 'madness' is extremely weak.

I'm not suggesting Jon showed sings of madness. Only that BOTH him and Dany have shown to have bad tempers. As for being completely understandable, so were Dany's reactions to the dead slave children and other situations that are constantly criticized. Why is Jon beyond criticism?

[eyenon15]

That's not what I wrote, that's what you took from it.

Jon has proven himself to be smart, capable, knowledgeable and at times visionary leader. Whether he's the best is debatable (Is there even such a thing as the best leader? Surely that depends on the circumstances and the position he is in?) but denying he's one of the reasonably good one is just silly.

I wasn't debating if Jon was pretty good, decent, whatever.

I was asking how he has shown superior leadership to Dany. This claim was made.

He hasn't.

If you want me to agree that he seems decent, sure he seems ok to me. But that's an entirely different point.

Surely nothing he has done in his current circumstance shows him to be superior to any of the other leaders.

[Maid So Fair]

I'm not suggesting Jon showed sings of madness. Only that BOTH him and Dany have shown to have bad tempers. As for being completely understandable, so were Dany's reactions to the dead slave children and other situations that are constantly criticized. Why is Jon beyond criticism?

I don't think Dany's reaction is unjustified, but the main difference between these scenarios (for me, anyway) is that while Jon's reaction is basically a heat of the moment thing, Dany's actions are premeditated since she has had time to calm down and contemplate what would be the best thing to do.

[SeanF]

Dany certainly has a cruel streak running through her, but she isn't Aerys III.

Aerys was paranoid, seeing traitors everywhere, Dany isn't paranoid. Aerys got sexually aroused by burning people; there's no evidence that Dany gets aroused by torture. Aerys ripped out Ser Ilyn's tongue, for making a joke at his expense. Dany would never do that.

I could imagine Dany burning Jaime alive in his armour, if she captured him. I couldn't imagine her ordering a woman's private parts to be ripped out with red hot pincers.

[SeanF]

Cersei is more like Aerys III (although even she doesn't get aroused by cruelty).

[Kyoshi]

I feel like mental illness is a topic badly dealt with in general. It comes with a big stigma and people are very eager to brand someone crazy, when in fact mental illnesses have never been more common and some of them, like sociopathy, can actually be of great benefit to succeed in this world of ours. In GRRM's world Tywin Lannister could be easily branded as a sociopath but nobody says the word and he gets respect for getting things done. Yet everyone keeps telling how crazy the Mad King was so readers start to look at Dany in a certain light, looking for every little clue about her madness.

I think GRRM has done great job with the topic. The easiest, and cheesiest way of dealing with the topic would have Dany become insane but the author is more intelligent than that.

Like Tyrion says, Dany has to be proud because she came of nothing. And the place where Dany finds her source of strength and pride is her name. The exchange GRRM wrote in the tv-show (s1ep9) between Dany and Drogo's bloodrider was quite telling about where he's going with this character. At Drogo's dying bed Dany was screaming that she's not worthless, she's a dragon. In order to survive as an underdog, one has to be proud. And this is why I love the whole Mereen arc. The moment Dany stops being an underdog and starts to rule Mereen is the moment she begins to question her name. Her father was called mad, so Dany - like many readers - begins to question her actions from that light. Out of fear of being crazy she looks back at her decision to crucify the masters and keeps asking Selmy whether her father was truly crazy. Many take the exhange between the two (the one where Dany stops Selmy in the lines of "I shouldn't be hearing this") as a sign of her incompetence to deal with her family's skeletons. But I take that as another proof of Dany fearing her state of mental health. This fear is the reason she becomes so weak in Mereen. She literally locks her violent side (her dragons) in the darkness and refuses to use violence for the greater good. Her source of pride is also the source of her insecurities and isn't until the very end of the last book where Dany rids herself of such follies and grows up into an adult.

In my opinion, the insight Daenerys shows in her Mereen chapters proves that she isn't crazy. The only thing that says otherwise is her lack of trust in every single person, but in the world of ice and fire that's propably a virtue. The way in which GRRM has dealt with this character has made her a very personal one to me. As someone who grew up in an alcoholic family, I too went through the insecurities and fears of becoming like my parents. I was scared of having even one drink because I took it as a proof my alcoholism. I feel like I "get" what the author is doing here and gongratule him for doing such a great job with it.

This was very refreshing to read, particularly the bolded paragraph. Actually, the whole post. And thanks for sharing the story about your family. Thanks a bunch, buddy!

To the red part, I'd like to point out that every single noble in this series is proud. However, people overlook the pride of other characters, it is only when Dany gets involved that the issue of "arrogance" and "entitlement" becomes troublesome and hard to take.

On another note, let's please keep the dragon discussion alive as well. I'm really interested to hear what people think.

[Nictarion]

Cersei is more like Aerys III (although even she doesn't get aroused by cruelty).

She did get pretty excited about burning the TotH though.

[Maid So Fair]

I wasn't debating if Jon was pretty good, decent, whatever.

I was asking how he has shown superior leadership to Dany. This claim was made.

He hasn't.

If you want me to agree that he seems decent, sure he seems ok to me. But that's an entirely different point.

Surely nothing he has done in his current circumstance shows him to be superior to any of the other leaders.

I don't see why any praise or damnation of either Jon or Dany has to turn into a slinging match between the two. I (mostly) like them both. Also, you seem to be arguing that Jon is objectively bad rather than them both being capable and Dany just being better.

In ADWD we basically see Jon attempting something that's not been tried before by rehabilitating the wildlings and mostly make the impossible situation work. We see the wildlings starting to respect him to the point of agreeing to follow him into battle with some even joining the NW. We see Jon manage a precarious political situation with Stannis and mostly come out on top, without giving away any more than necessary. He shows an extremely good knowledge of the North and its various forces and a shrewd understanding of how to make this work to his advantage, culminating in basically fighting the Boltons using Stannis as proxy. This might not make him the best leader in general but it certainly shows he's qualified to lead the North. He obtains food for all his subjects out of nothing on the strength of a promise. And he shows he cares about his subjects. His errors include sending men loyal to him away and not paying enough attention to the trappings of power and not explaining himself better to some subordinates. But he's put in an extremely difficult position and he makes the most out of it all the while not losing sight of his goals. Dany's plan in Meereen seems to be 1, free the city and the slaves 2, ??? 3, profit! She shows remarkable leadership qualities in other situations but this wasn't one of them.

[Bronn Urgandy]

No more than having an access to a huge army is a major threat, yet no one is arguing that all the Lords Paramount are antagonists.

I'd argue it all day long, having a massive army because hereditary.... Eeek!

I think its silly to argue against pretty much anyone with power playing an antagonistic role, especially when that power comes in the form of large firebreathing monstrosities. Its just that very often, protagonist and antagonist are one in the same, for to be the former you must be the latter to somebody. Or are we all still naive enough to believe that Dany's antagonists will still only be 2D villainous charicatures by the end of this series and not possibly include Davos Seaworth among others?