sj4iy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Still just all your own opinions. Please show me evidence from the book that the daughters are proven innocent? They are all three caught at the scene of the crime, there is no way in hell to determine if any of them are guilty or innocent based on the text we are given. You have a biased view on it when you say that they were 100% innocent as we clearly do not have that knowledge. I accept that they could be innocent or they could be guilty, but I also accept that any lord in the same situation would do the same thing to get answers, Dany is no different and should not be treated differently. It's not my 'opinion'. The daughters were never suspected of doing anything. You can't just say "Well, I'm sure they were guilty of something". The point is that they were never suspects in the first place and are being used to make their father talk. You don't even know how old they are nor can you tell us whether their father was actually guilty yet you are trying to pin something on them to justify Dany's command. What did those girls do to deserve being tortured? I have two children myself. Do you think that I would sit there and watch my kids being tortured and not confess to every single thing they accuse me of, even if I'm innocent? If Dany suspected the wineseller, she should have imprisoned him and tried him fairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Your search is over because Suzanna is justifying torture in the posts above. I'm sorry, but this post makes me question your reading comprehension of my posts. Where in the world did I ever say that torture is justified??? 2014 and ASOIAF are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Torture does not need to be justified int he books because it is common and everyone does it. Earlier we were discussing the ice cells and it was stated that Jon has no other cells to use, which is true.....the world they live in is so harsh that no one in the Nights Watch even realizes or cares that every time they put prisoners in those cells they are torturing them. Planetos is one fucked up place and so are all the people who live there. What I have been saying, relentlessly, in many threads, over and over, is that torture is commonly used in ASOIAF. It is used to find out answers and for many other reasons. I have given many examples. If you do not wish to accept the reality of the setting and culture of the world of Planetos then that is on you. But i have done more than enough to show that Dany is not alone here, and anyone who says she is is clearly biased against her and therefore discredited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 What I have been saying, relentlessly, in many threads, over and over, is that torture is commonly used in ASOIAF. It is used to find out answers and for many other reasons. I have given many examples. If you do not wish to accept the reality of the setting and culture of the world of Planetos then that is on you. But i have done more than enough to show that Dany is not alone here, and anyone who says she is is clearly biased against her and therefore discredited. Just because torture is commonly used doesn't make it right, nor does it justify Dany's use of it in her search for 'justice'. Dany sacked those cities and took over because she wanted to rid them of slavery...she wanted to get rid of a system that allowed those with power to beat, rape or kill those without power. If she uses torture to achieve justice, though, she is no better than the people she deposed, and she is doing exactly what she set out to destroy. THAT'S my problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 It's not my 'opinion'. The daughters were never suspected of doing anything. You can't just say "Well, I'm sure they were guilty of something". The point is that they were never suspects in the first place and are being used to make their father talk. You don't even know how old they are nor can you tell us whether their father was actually guilty yet you are trying to pin something on them to justify Dany's command. What did those girls do to deserve being tortured? I have two children myself. Do you think that I would sit there and watch my kids being tortured and not confess to every single thing they accuse me of, even if I'm innocent? If Dany suspected the wineseller, she should have imprisoned him and tried him fairly. this is what is confusing me, how do you know the daughters are innocent? maybe they lured Dany's men there and poisoned them. We just don't know. This is my point, none of us know the whole situation, the only thing I am trying to get across is that she behaved in a standard way of a ruler trying to find out answers about a murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 this is what is confusing me, how do you know the daughters are innocent? maybe they lured Dany's men there and poisoned them. We just don't know. This is my point, none of us know the whole situation, the only thing I am trying to get across is that she behaved in a standard way of a ruler trying to find out answers about a murder. Read my post above and you'll see what the real problem with this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I'm sorry, but this post makes me question your reading comprehension of my posts. Where in the world did I ever say that torture is justified??? 2014 and ASOIAF are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Torture does not need to be justified int he books because it is common and everyone does it. Earlier we were discussing the ice cells adn it was stated that Jon has no other cells to use, which is true.....the world they live in is so harsh that no one in the Nights Watch even realizes or cares that every time they put prisoners in those cells they are torturing them. Planetos is one fucked up place and so are all the people who live there. What I have been saying, relentlessly, in many threads, over and over, is that torture is commonly used in ASOIAF. It is used to find out answers and for many other reasons. I have given many examples. If you do not wish to accept the reality of the setting and culture of the world of Planetos then that is on you. But i have done more than enough to show that Dany is not alone here, and anyone who says she is is clearly biased against her and therefore discredited. Suzanna, not everyone does it, that is very much clear. We had to scrap the Westerosi worst to get to the torture Dany enforced. And even when we spread the range of what torture means, we didn't get even half of it. So, it is plainly wrong to say everyone do it, because they simply don't. Torture is not so commonly used in Westeros, especially not on innocent people to extract information of someone else. Dany certainly isn't alone, but the company she is with regarding this is not flattering. But, when we are with bias and being discredited, your claim that everyone does it, certainly makes you look bias in favor of her and thus discredited. Your generalizations are not useful because they simply don't hold. That is what is the main issue here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Just because torture is commonly used doesn't make it right, nor does it justify Dany's use of it in her search for 'justice'. Dany sacked those cities and took over because she wanted to rid them of slavery...she wanted to get rid of a system that allowed those with power to beat, rape or kill those without power. If she uses torture to achieve justice, though, she is no better than the people she deposed, and she is doing exactly what she set out to destroy.THAT'S my problem with it.But it has worked, it has yielded results on many occasions, so in some cases it IS in fact the right thing to do. Take the High Septon getting answers out of Kettlebeck, it is a very gruesome terrible amount of torture and it's gross, but he got every answer he was trying to get, all the truth came spilling out. I think you are over-generalizing Dany's whole story. Just because she is freeing slaves does not mean she is some ethereal goddess who is above all human frailty and faults. She still has to follow the way of life of the planet she is on, and on her planet, people torture. If you think that all her good deeds, and freeing of slaves is completely taken away because of this one act, then IMO you are giving waaaay too much credence to this one act. i Dont think her freeing slaves and questioning these people about a murder have anything to do with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in Black Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Is this like theraputic ? I mean what do you guys get out of this, kicks ? They get paid per post :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I am responding to what has been said in this thread. On every post I deem fit to answer. If there is a problem in that, please contact the mods about it. Ok so you dont stick to things you say, as long as we are clear on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think people are kidding themselves if they don't think torture is common place amongst the lords of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think people are kidding themselves if they don't think torture is common place amongst the lords of Westeros. No one denys torture is common. But it's not a fact. Suzanna said every single Lord of Westeros would practice torture. That's quite wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think people are kidding themselves if they don't think torture is common place amongst the lords of Westeros.AGoT Sansa level naivety if you ask me. This idea that Westeros is full of Ned Stark's is quite strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah not everyone does it, only the Bratheons, the Lannisters, the Aryyns, The Targaryens, The Boltons, the Nights watch, the Wildlings, Craster, The Ironborn, The Freys.......The High Septon, The Dornish......I'm sure there's more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 No one denys torture is common. But it's not a fact. Suzanna said every single Lord of Westeros would practice torture. That's quite wrong. What I said was "any lord in her position" What is the deal with people misquoting me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in Black Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 They get paid per post :dunno:Definitely paid per post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think people are kidding themselves if they don't think torture is common place amongst the lords of Westeros. They kid themselves when they think Westeros has any kind of notion of our standards of human rights. Or rights at all. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah not everyone does it, only the Bratheons, the Lannisters, the Aryyns, The Targaryens, The Boltons, the Nights watch, the Wildlings, Craster, The Ironborn.......The High Septon, The Dornish......I'm sure there's more. Sure, but not the Starks, Tyrells, Martells, etc. Also, what's up with saying all those Houses torture? I've not seen Renly torturing anyone. Or Jon Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Ok so you dont stick to things you say, as long as we are clear on that. Suzanna, no need for insults. I very much stick to what I write here and for better or worse, I am regarded as one of the most strongly-opinionated person on the board. So, I respond to things I want to, giving an insight I believe in it. So, I swear to God, I have no idea what you are talking about me not sticking to the things I say. AGoT Sansa level naivety if you ask me. This idea that Westeros is full of Ned Stark's is quite strange. That is plainly wrong. No one said here that Dany is the only tormentor in the series, but it would be stupid to make generalization and say "Yeah, everyone does it" when we have clearly see otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 A list of lords who don't employ torture would probably be a good deal shorter than a list of those who do.Doran is probably one of the most enlightened rulers in Westeros, yet, during Arianne's imprisonment, she thinks she'd almost welcome being put on the rack, or experiencing the touch of hot iron, just so long as she got someone to answer her questions. That implies their use is not unknown in Dorne. YEs the Martells do, and I have already explained about the Arryns. ANd I think you know I meant people in those houses, not every single member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Sure, but not the Starks, Tyrells, Martells, etc. Also, what's up with saying all those Houses torture? I've not seen Renly torturing anyone. Or Jon Arryn.How do you know the Tyrells don't? We don't have a POV from them, and we haven't "been" to Highgarden. As for the Martells, the point was made up thread that Arianne was familiar with different forms of torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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