Ingelheim Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 No it is not for sure. That is just one instance where they didn't want a child to be killed. Then there you have an example of why they wouldn't torture two women who might be guilty. Just might. But either way...Presumption of innocence. Until I see proof, Ned and Jon haven't tortured anyone. Also, knowing how they were, it's likely they never did it. Do you know the methods being used by the Shavepate? Do you think physical torture (if that's indeed what the Shavepate does) is worse than psychological torture? Shakaz is an expert of torture. Not only physical, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Shakaz is an expert of torture. Not only physical, that's for sure. If you are going to make such bold statements please provide proofs of the types of torture employed by the Shavepate if you deem them worse than those employed by the other lords of Westeros including Jon Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Ambar Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 What the fuck was this supposed to be about anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Oh Geez!!! You dont agree with any of that? You know that Jon murdered that poor Qorin when he was north of the Wall? Oh man, NEd has murdered people too, TOJ ring a bell? So I'm sorry, If you hate Dany for torturing people you obviously hate Ned and Jon too for being murderers. Actually not being cool with murder, rape or torture pretty much applies to Every single character.......maybe not Sansa, I'm not sure, depends on how you look at it. Oh well. Now you're grasping at straws. You can't support your own position so you are finding strawmen to attack. And the really hilarious part is that you pick strawmen which are easily defensible, like Qorin ORDERING Jon to kill him, or Ned killing people WHO WERE FIGHTING BACK during a WAR. Dany ordering the torture of those girls is not even analogous to those situations at all. You tried to say that I had to 'condone' something to want to read about it. That's BS. I don't have to condone any of the violence in these books. And I have the ability to look at each situation and judge it fairly and without reference to what any other character is or isn't doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 If you are going to make such bold statements please provide proofs of the types of torture employed by the Shavepate if you deem them worse than those employed by the other lords of Westeros including Jon Arryn. Yet I haven't seen Jon Arryn practicing torture. I cannot do it so. He may have not even used the Sky Cells for all I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yet I haven't seen Jon Arryn practicing torture. I cannot do it so. He may have not even used the Sky Cells for all I know. If the Sky cells weren't being used why did they have a jailer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I'm not defending what she did. It's the singling out of her, or suggesting only people like Ramsay, or the Tickler are comparable. When it's clear from the text other sympathetic characters are guilty of the same thing. I think we can agree that Dany is most certainly not the only one, as we have seen other people doing it. But, generalization that everyone do it is also wrong, because we have also seen they are not. That is why I find justification "others do it too" nonsensical. Because I don't want to compare you with Ramsay or Tickler or Tywin... The way I see it is simply without any justification, as the sign of how desperate she was for some answers and how that move was simply a huge lapse of her. I do judge her, especially since the torture was pointless at the end, but I don't think that moment is what defines her. But also, negating it, exonerating her would also be bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yet I haven't seen Jon Arryn practicing torture. I cannot do it so. He may have not even used the Sky Cells for all I know. Probably because for 5 books Jon Arryn has been dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 If the Sky cells weren't being used why did they have a jailer? Lysa was nuts, and her son, even more. They liked this kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yet I haven't seen Jon Arryn practicing torture. I cannot do it so. He may have not even used the Sky Cells for all I know. Probably because he was dead at the beginning of the story. What do you think Mord was for then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Probably because for 5 books Jon Arryn has been dead. So? I know Aerys tortured people. He's been dead far more than Jon Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think we can agree that Dany is most certainly not the only one, as we have seen other people doing it. But, generalization that everyone do it is also wrong, because we have also seen they are not. That is why I find justification "others do it too" nonsensical. Because I don't want to compare you with Ramsay or Tickler or Tywin... The way I see it is simply without any justification, as the sign of how desperate she was for some answers and how that move was simply a huge lapse of her. I do judge her, especially since the torture was pointless at the end, but I don't think that moment is what defines her. But also, negating it, exonerating her would also be bad. Very well put. I don't want Dany to be like that. I think she can be better than that, and while I understand that it can be frustrating in her situation, I want her to learn how to deal with problems more effectively or it's going to cause more issues for her down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Probably because he was dead at the beginning of the story. What do you think Mord was for then? Jon Arryn hadn't been living in the Eyrie for quite a long time. Mord could be Nestor's choice, or even Lysa's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Jon Arryn hadn't been living in the Eyrie for quite a long time. Mord could be Nestor's choice, or even Lysa's. It seemed to me that Mord had been there for a very long time. And if you think Jon Arryn never used those cells I have a bridge to sell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 It seemed to me that Mord had been there for a very long time. And if you think Jon Arryn never used those cells I have a bridge to sell you. No, of course, it's likely he used them a few times. But I don't know it for a fact, so I'll not judge till I know. I know Jon Arryn was a kind man who didn't want to kill Daenerys and Viserys. So I don't think it fits his character. This debate started with the notion that "every single Lord of Westero would torture as Dany did if need be". That's what I'm denying. Many would; many wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Genuine question: why does everyone seem to think that 1, Shavepate is a master torturer and2, 'question someone sharply' means torture. I didn't like Dany's Meereen chapters so I might have missed some hint of no1 and I've always interpreted no2 as more of a bad routine or possibly some version of Jack Bauer interrogation techniques rather than outright torture. Am I just being naive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonDreamer Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Genuine question: why does everyone seem to think that1, Shavepate is a master torturer and2, 'question someone sharply' means torture.I didn't like Dany's Meereen chapters so I might have missed some hint of no1 and I've always interpreted as more of a bad cop/possibly some version of Jack Bauer interrogation techniques rather than outright torture. Because Hizzy (whose family is a mortal enemy of the Shavepates) said that the Shavepate was a torturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Genuine question: why does everyone seem to think that 1, Shavepate is a master torturer and2, 'question someone sharply' means torture. I didn't like Dany's Meereen chapters so I might have missed some hint of no1 and I've always interpreted no2 as more of a bad routine or possibly some version of Jack Bauer interrogation techniques rather than outright torture. Am I just being naive?1. Hizdahr says that Skahaz would have him confessing that he murdered Aerys; Skahaz has to be prevented by Barristan from torturing Hizdahr when he's arrested; Skahaz counsels ripping out the Tongue of Hazzea's father, and killing child hostages. He's in overall charge of the "sharp questioning".2. "Sharp questioning" has generally been used as a euphemism for torture. It could amount to whipping and blows, but the Shavepate seems the type who'd go much further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Genuine question: why does everyone seem to think that1, Shavepate is a master torturer and2, 'question someone sharply' means torture.I didn't like Dany's Meereen chapters so I might have missed some hint of no1 and I've always interpreted no2 as more of a bad routine or possibly some version of Jack Bauer interrogation techniques rather than outright torture. Am I just being naive? Shakaz wants to torture Hizdhar, Hazzea's father, killing child hostages, etc. Sharp questioning is used as an euphemism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Now you're grasping at straws. You can't support your own position so you are finding strawmen to attack. And the really hilarious part is that you pick strawmen which are easily defensible, like Qorin ORDERING Jon to kill him, or Ned killing people WHO WERE FIGHTING BACK during a WAR.Dany ordering the torture of those girls is not even analogous to those situations at all. You tried to say that I had to 'condone' something to want to read about it. That's BS. I don't have to condone any of the violence in these books. And I have the ability to look at each situation and judge it fairly and without reference to what any other character is or isn't doing.Gimme a break, You have not done any better of a job supporting your claims than I have. We see the situation differently. No matter what evidence I give you turn around and use the double standard. Ned and Jon were justified cuz they were at war...... well so was Dany. Also those are not the only people they killed. You have proven the point of the thread, double standards are rampant when discussing Dany, everyone else gets a pass but not her. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.jpg.286c4041b1858d97184224ffa57d1501.thumb.jpg.58c01da3f0aa8225a4568cc1e2d7398b.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.