Winterfell is Burning Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Spies can be stabbed and or hit with heavy things. OK, so I'll repeat, because the haters have been dodging the question: why using a shadowbaby is less honorable than sending a huge dragon that will kill thousands, including Renly? Or if a warg took control of a direwolf and attack Renly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Lee knot Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 OK, so I'll repeat, because the haters have been dodging the question: why using a shadowbaby is less honorable than sending a huge dragon that will kill thousands, including Renly? Or if a warg took control of a direwolf and attack Renly? It's not about honorable. The shadowbaby hate has nothing to do with the characters. It's a complaint about the writing. But to answer your question. I would consider assassinating someone by any means less honorable then defeating them in combat however I don't think there is anything immoral about it when fighting a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mb2518 Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 The shadowbaby ensured Stannis' defeat in the end. It's not lazy writing at all. Using it did more harm than good to Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 OK, so I'll repeat, because the haters have been dodging the question: why using a shadowbaby is less honorable than sending a huge dragon that will kill thousands, including Renly? Or if a warg took control of a direwolf and attack Renly? Because you can defend against a direwolf, or see the dragon coming and flee. The same can't be said for the shadow queef. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Martin establishes in the prologue of AGOT that there is a supernatural element to Westeros. He establishes in the prologue of ACOK that Melisandre has supernatural powers of some description. The shadowbaby is not a deus ex machina. The possibility of Melisandre using supernatural powers is fully consistent with the narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Martin establishes in the prologue of AGOT that there is a supernatural element to Westeros. He establishes in the prologue of ACOK that Melisandre has supernatural powers of some description. The shadowbaby is not a deus ex machina. The possibility of Melisandre using supernatural powers is fully consistent with the narrative. Thank you. Gosh, people here seem to hate magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Martin establishes in the prologue of AGOT that there is a supernatural element to Westeros. He establishes in the prologue of ACOK that Melisandre has supernatural powers of some description. The shadowbaby is not a deus ex machina. The possibility of Melisandre using supernatural powers is fully consistent with the narrative. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. Tywin, on Stannis, late AGOT. Notice how a shadowbinder is mentioned as an asset on the same category as a navy and an army, when Tywin is listing Stannis' preparations for war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceiteach Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 OK, so I'll repeat, because the haters have been dodging the question: why using a shadowbaby is less honorable than sending a huge dragon that will kill thousands, including Renly? Or if a warg took control of a direwolf and attack Renly? The point is that Stannis is depicted by his fans as being the pinnacle of honor, but allowing his own flesh and blood to be murdered by something that he had no chance of defending himself against is despicable. I cannot wait for his grisly end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 I think Stannis would have been a good lord and a king in a different world, but him and his rep will never sit him on the throne, it would mean Mace's head and the Tyrell fall. That doesn't seem impossible, with Euron, Aegon and Dany eventually being all up in Mace's face. Or, my favorite, the '' it's black magic!'' thing. Half the PoV characters use something that could be called like that at some point or another. Possessing people or birthing flying flamethrowers via human sacrifice is not any more ''black'' magic than trading sperm for a shadow with a pointy end if you ask me. Yeah. If you're generally opposed to magic and feel the need to label it as 'black', at least be consistent. Dany and her black magic dragons, Bran and his black magic warging, Moqorro and his black magic healing, Stannis and his black magic shadows. Black magic all round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 The point is that Stannis is depicted by his fans as being the pinnacle of honor, but allowing his own flesh and blood to be murdered by something that he had no chance of defending himself against is despicable. I cannot wait for his grisly end! How exactly could Stannis know that Mel could summon shadow babies, or that she would kill Renly? How did he allow something that he had no idea about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Because you can defend against a direwolf, or see the dragon coming and flee. The same can't be said for the shadow queef. What if you don't see the direwolf coming? Then it's dishonorable? That's what happened to Joffrey's assassin. Or let's say the warg takes over a mosquito that bites Renly and infects him with malaria leading to his death? Honorable or dishonorable? Or if the warg takes over, say, a raven and finds out information about Renly's battle plans that way, making them useless? Renly couldn't see it coming too, I'm guessing that counts as dishonorable. How about Mel having visions of the future (which she mostly misinterprets, but that's another discussion)? Is that dishonorable, since Stannis enemies don't know she can't do that and no one else can do it? The point is that Stannis is depicted by his fans as being the pinnacle of honor, ! Who does that? Ned is the pinnacle of honor, not Stannis, I've never seen anyone argue otherwise. And funny how you don't mention the part about Renly planning to murder him, and crowning himself knowing full well he can't be King with an older brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 I think Stannis knew about the shadow beings after Renly's death. He did knowly use them on Ser Courtney. While he one of my favorite charactors, Stannis could at least face Courtney man to man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 I think Stannis knew about the shadow beings after Renly's death. He did knowly use them on Ser Courtney. While he one of my favorite charactors, Stannis could at least face Courtney man to manHe knew Mel could kill Penrose with magic if she got in SE. He had no idea how she could do so other than "magic". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 How exactly could Stannis know that Mel could summon shadow babies, or that she would kill Renly? How did he allow something that he had no idea about? It is interesting how Stannis's knowledge level seems to change depending on the criteria. For example, it wasn't stupid of him to attack Renly because he knew Mel could take out Renly, but when it comes to the charge of kinslaying then he is ignorant of Mel's ability to kill Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryden Tully Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 How the fuck can people expect Stannis to win? I know some people see him as some sort of Warrior God but Renly not only had 20,000 cavarly but he had the best commander in Westeros with him along with many other skilled generals against Stannis who only had free-riders. Stannis knew he couldn't beat Renly in the Field, that's why he made him an offer and then killed him. People need to get over Stannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Because you can defend against a direwolf, or see the dragon coming and flee. The same can't be said for the shadow queef. Stannis couldn't defend himself from 20 000 experienced knights with his army, nor could he defend himself from wildfire and surprise chains. The Wildlings couldn't defend themselves from armored knights crashing on their rear. The Northmen couldn't defend their coast with no ships against one of the most powerful navies of Westeros. The army at Oxcross couldn't defend itself from said Direwolf sniffing a convenient alternate path. The army at the Fields of Fire had no idea or ressources to fight dragons and couldn't defend themselves, unless you think an army of 50 000 can flee in good order while medieval Apache helicopters are bearing down on their asses. I could go on and on. War is not fair, and if you have a weapon or tactic your enemy cannot defend against, it would be pure idiocy not to use it. And it's not even true; runed castles like Storm's End offer a defense against the shadowbaby. It's also possible another skilled shadowbinder could have defended against the attack, or at least warn Renly. You might say Renly couldn't pull a shadowbinder out of his ass. Well Stannis couldn't pull an army of 100 000 out of his ass either. Neither is more fair than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryden Tully Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Stannis couldn't defend himself from 20 000 experienced knights with his army, nor could he defend himself from wildfire and surprise chains. The Wildlings couldn't defend themselves from armored knights crashing on their rear. The Northmen couldn't defend their coast with no ships against one of the most powerful navies of Westeros. The army at Oxcross couldn't defend itself from said Direwolf sniffing a convenient alternate path. The army at the Fields of Fire had no idea or ressources to fight dragons and couldn't defend themselves, unless you think an army of 50 000 can flee in good order while medieval Apache helicopters are bearing down on their asses. I could go on and on. War is not fair, and if you have a weapon or tactic your enemy cannot defend against, it would be pure idiocy not to use it. And it's not even true; runed castles like Storm's End offer a defense against the shadowbaby. It's also possible another skilled shadowbinder could have defended against the attack, or at least warn Renly. You might say Renly couldn't pull a shadowbinder out of his ass. Well Stannis couldn't pull an army of 100 000 out of his ass either. Neither is more fair than the other. In the context of Westeros it's much more honourable to kill a man in open battle rather than using your foreign witch to kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 If Renly had a way of creating a shadow assassian, he would do it and us it. It is war, and it not as bad as Tywin unleaching the Mountain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusted Iron Hinge Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 People here seriously think Stannis had a chance of beating Renly without the shadow assassin? Seven hells, not even Sam Tarly can get a hard-on this fat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 If Renly had a way of creating a shadow assassian, he would do it and us it. It is war, and it not as bad as Tywin unleaching the Mountain Why? He can crush Stannis with "cleaner" methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.