Would you like a really grim ending

[Equilibrium]

And not because they are complex or have outdated literary style or metrics or whatever. I think classical tragedies maybe don't have the following of the Twilight proportions but they do have pretty big one, it's all the matter of perspective, you can argue that Twilight fans are among the 10 or 20 percent of literary elite because they at least read something.

With all the all of expectations put aside, I read the series seven times, I think I couldn't make myself not like it even if fucking Care Bears came and sorted everything with the power of friendship.

I sincerely don't think George is aiming to appease the fandom, because you can never appease the fandom, and fandom as we know it didn't existed when he conceived the story

[Lonin]

I want grrm to complete with reasonable (whatever that means) endings all the story arcs he has started... If he does that, I will be happy with any ending. I am not as confident as most posters seem to be.

[Hodor's Dragon]

This doesn't have anything with the skill, if he flexes those writing muscles he can pull of a marry-happy ending that will make sense and be satysfying, so I'm not limiting anything just stating my current preference.

Bravo, I misunderstood.

Yes it can it always can, and it can stay the same amount of bad too, there is no upward thread in history and GRRM knows his history well enough not to fall in that mistake in the books. People thought about the world as better place after WWI and look how that turned out, there is never point in life where difficulties pass and happy ever after starts. -> snip

While it's certainly true that difficulties are eternal and happy ever after never seems to roll around, I argue that there definitely is an upward thread in history. Good and bad things definitely ebb and flow and ebb and flow like the economic cycle, but at the same time there is a tidal trend toward

• More prosperity

More freedom for individuals

More equality among individuals

It seems to me that the trend of history is undeniable. For starters, take the world of ASOIAF, which is only a slightly-exaggerated version of medieval history (plus dragons), and compare it to life today. I don't see how you can realistically question that average folks today lead a far superior life to the ASOIAF smallfolk.

Sure, prosperity and freedom and equality might dive for a few years here and there. But they're ultimately winners in the long-term competition among principles. Just look at what happened in the 20th century, the most important century in history (so far): colonialism ended, rights for women and different ethnic groups progressed more than probably in the rest of history combined, and the number of magic gadgets that got invented to make people's lives easier and more enjoyable is stupendous.

We always find things to complain about, but these are the good old days. 50 years from now the good old days will probably be even better than they are now.

[The Mother of The Others]

Is there peer pressure here for a sad ending? I'm not supposed to say I want a decent ending because a victorious end to the series isn't hard core enough. It's been misery all along, and we've gotten comfy with a certain level of gutwrenching pain, so now we're playing a game of chicken to see who weakens first and gets tired of the misery. Anyone who hints that a happy ending might be preferable loses!

I want an upswing improvement ending. I want it to end in a better state than it's existed during the wars. I lose!

[Irish]

I want this to end in an incredibly grim, bloody, victory for the Others... Then the last chapter pans back to Bran waking up in Winterfell with his family, whole, standing around his bed. Everyone is crying, but they're tears of joy.

Then aliens nuke WinterFell.

[sj4iy]

Is there peer pressure here for a sad ending? I'm not supposed to say I want a decent ending because a victorious end to the series isn't hard core enough. It's been misery all along, and we've gotten comfy with a certain level of gutwrenching pain, so now we're playing a game of chicken to see who weakens first and gets tired of the misery. Anyone who hints that a happy ending might be preferable loses!

I want an upswing improvement ending. I want it to end in a better state than it's existed during the wars. I lose!

You're not hipster enough, apparently.

[RoamingRonin]

I wouldn't mind if it ended like the Wire.

[No Song so Sweet]

I think we weill have the ending that a greek tragedy would deserve. It is ironic that we think that the world of ice and fire is amoral and unjust but i think a moral order will be achieved by the end of the books. Sure the "ïnnocents" that have died/suffered unjustly in the books will not be paid back but i think all the wrongdowers will get what is coming to them. I think GRRM has handled many of his characters this way already.

Look at Theon's actions and where he is now.

Look at Cersei's actions and the proportionate fall from grace.

Jamie losing his arm, Tyrion losing any social status and wealth and being treated as a slave in proportion with how he treated his whores and his political games.

I think the Lannisters and Theon especially demonstrate that every good action is paid back in their fate with rewards that are proportionate to it and every bad action comes back to bite them in the ass in the same area as their wrongdoing.

I can also name countless of other examples, Loras Tyrell and his vanity, Renly for his treason, Robert for his debauchery, Janos Slynt, Balon and Victarion Greyjoy, Joffry, Oberyn, Catlyn and Robb, Roose Bolton (as it seems, and Ramsay too), the Freys with the Frey Pies/ Lady Stoneheart (and i think Lord Walder will be also killed spectacularly).

Even Ned. For all his pseudo-honor, he died as a traitor, and i think he kind of deserved it. Even if he didn't, then Joffrey and Cersei certainly paid for their wrongdoing of killing him. As I said, innocents may suffer or die unjustly, but the ones who are guilty for that will "pay" and therefore moral order will be bestowed.

That's what happens in tragedy: catharsis. Catharsis is very beneficial to the narrative as it gives the reader long-term satisfaction and it teaches something, like tragedies which were supposed to be didactic.

Stannis represents that "karmic force" with what he did to Davos. Stannis will also get his rightful punishment for the wrong he has done and the rightful rewards for the good he has done, exactly like Davos. I think he can hope for a clean and/or heroic death.

Of course I may be wrong, but that's my reading on it.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I wouldn't mind if it ended like the Wire.

Yuk. I thought that was a total cop-out. Abandoned 5 years of realism to buy wholesale into pop meta-narratives.

(Plus that would be pretty abrupt to set book 7 in Baltimore. . . .)

[sj4iy]

Yuk. I thought that was a total cop-out. Abandoned 5 years of realism to buy wholesale into pop meta-narratives.

(Plus that would be pretty abrupt to set book 7 in Baltimore. . . .)

Could be worse...it could be a Neon Genesis Evangelion-type ending.

[Lord Orys]

I want an ending that's sad for some, celebratory for the rest.

Like fans of __________ are going to walk away bitter and fans of _________ are going to walk away feeling content. The entire series would just be so much more immerse that way.

[ambi76]

I would like that but I won't get it. GRRM's bittersweet "good will prevail over bad but everyone will be pretty sad about it" is not grim enough for me.

[Equilibrium]

While it's certainly true that difficulties are eternal and happy ever after never seems to roll around, I argue that there definitely is an upward thread in history. Good and bad things definitely ebb and flow and ebb and flow like the economic cycle, but at the same time there is a tidal trend toward

• More prosperity

More freedom for individuals

More equality among individuals

It seems to me that the trend of history is undeniable. For starters, take the world of ASOIAF, which is only a slightly-exaggerated version of medieval history (plus dragons), and compare it to life today. I don't see how you can realistically question that average folks today lead a far superior life to the ASOIAF smallfolk.

Sure, prosperity and freedom and equality might dive for a few years here and there. But they're ultimately winners in the long-term competition among principles. Just look at what happened in the 20th century, the most important century in history (so far): colonialism ended, rights for women and different ethnic groups progressed more than probably in the rest of history combined, and the number of magic gadgets that got invented to make people's lives easier and more enjoyable is stupendous.

We always find things to complain about, but these are the good old days. 50 years from now the good old days will probably be even better than they are now.

And who thought you history? Marx? Are we nearing communism now? Are you aware that thesis about constant progress of civilization, or positive trend or anything positive and quantifiable is disapproved in academic community like 50 years ago?

Maybe if you live in USA where you measure progress by Big Macs and iPhones and blacks not being murdered in the streets (ah wait, not that) you have the illusion of progress as same as you have illusion of freedom, but guess what I don't live there, a lots of people on this boards doesn't live there and billions of people with no access to internet or books for that matter do not live there.

I would recommend you to read something about theory of civilization or progression of historical trends, philosophers, historians and sociologists wrote extensively about the topic, there are a lots of interdisciplinary studies and majority of credible ones will tell you the same thing, there is not nice constant upward curve of progress.

Also give it a read to some of the books concerning historical perspective, anachronisms and socio-genesis.

[Equilibrium]

snip

And yeah, my previous post was a bit of overkill, but I implore you not to get upset, you are probably nice guy/girl and it's my fault for coming a bit overaggressive.

It's my area of work and that is probably why I get so edgy and defensive. And for that I am sorry.

Also don't dismiss my arguments because of the bad way I delivered them, they are a good arguments, just don't take what I have written as an insult or disparaging

[LongRider]

I'd like a GRRM ending. And soon!

[jakmanuk]

Like hell they do. The movie ends all sugary and optimistic, but the novel ends with

Evie literally donning V's mask and becoming the new V. And most importantly, the ending is totally ambiguous as the country devolves into anarchy

I forgot about all that, sorry :D

[Hodor's Dragon]

And who thought you history? Marx? Are we nearing communism now? Are you aware that thesis about constant progress of civilization, or positive trend or anything positive and quantifiable is disapproved in academic community like 50 years ago?

Maybe if you live in USA where you measure progress by Big Macs and iPhones and blacks not being murdered in the streets (ah wait, not that) you have the illusion of progress as same as you have illusion of freedom, but guess what I don't live there, a lots of people on this boards doesn't live there and billions of people with no access to internet or books for that matter do not live there.

I would recommend you to read something about theory of civilization or progression of historical trends, philosophers, historians and sociologists wrote extensively about the topic, there are a lots of interdisciplinary studies and majority of credible ones will tell you the same thing, there is not nice constant upward curve of progress.

Also give it a read to some of the books concerning historical perspective, anachronisms and socio-genesis.

First, thanks for your second post, it was very nice. I'm not insulted. I am, however, very convinced that you are wrong. So let me return the favor and say don't get insulted by this.

But I will start by saying dude, I'm 59 years old, I have two graduate degrees including one from an "elite" school, I majored in international political economy as an undergrad, and I have read scores of history books if not hundreds. I don't need a beginner's primer.

I think you need to read some pre-20th-century history if you are rejecting the absolute fact that life is better now almost everywhere - I would say everywhere, but sub-Saharan Africa is its own special brand of hell that may not be better than the brand of hell from several hundred years prior.

Of course there is no absolute measurement for quality of life but academics have taken the best hack at it they possibly can by measuring things like life expectancy, infant mortality, calorie consumption, literacy and a few other quantifiable metrics that are undeniably good things and can be measured numerically. All those things are far, far better worldwide than they were in the past. Here's something of a review. Horrible diseases like smallpox have been eradicated, bubonic plague all but, and many more diseases can be and are vaccinated against, even in the poorest countries.

As I said previously, Martin exaggerates the evils of medieval life, but only slightly. It was fucking horrible to be a commoner in the middle ages. There are still a few really bad places to live in the world, but only a handful come anywhere near what that was like; basically, it can only be anywhere near that bad when the government is so colossally benighted that they actively make life worse for the citizens. The worst features of medieval life only changed gradually. The 20th century was the first century where political movements for civil rights and equality actually caught hold powerfully and controlled governments.

Only 60 years ago half the world was colonies belonging to a few rich nations. Now colonialism is dead, buried, kaput, an ex-system.

China, close to 1/4 of the world's population, has moved from abject poverty when I was born to a standard of living nearly equal to that of "first world" nations. "Third world" nations like pretty much all of Central and South America have moved into the "second world," with populations that are clearly better-educated and better-fed than they were when I was a child.

I grew up in Alabama. I remember, when I was a child, seeing a service station on a rural highway with 3 bathrooms: "Ladies," "Gentlemen," and "Colored." That's absolutely unthinkable now, and has been for decades. And it's not only in the U.S. where that kind of change has been seen.

Not to mention the way that inventions like cars, trains, telephones, computers, mass entertainment and the internet have revolutionized life for the common people. Even in sub-Saharan Africa cell phone usage is widespread and people are able to communicate with each other as they never could before. That's by far the poorest region on earth.

I'm only scratching the surface. If you really don't believe that life is way better now than it was 500 years ago, I just don't know what to say. Unless your controlling value is something like open space or having a frontier to go have an adventure on, there's just really no argument. I suspect you have been reading too much tendentious theory and not enough empirical research.

[Sullen]

I wouldn't mind a really grim ending.

What I'd really prefer is a bittersweet one though, with more emphasis on the bitter than the sweet, and that it fits the narrative properly.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

I want an ending like Beowulf. (The epic poem, not the stupid movie)

[mankytoes]

I don't mind happy endings, I didn't really like Harry Potter's (the very ending), but only because it felt inevitable. It's hard to see how this could have a really happy ending without it being forced. In terms of the bittersweet, I could see something along the lines of an heroic final victory over the Others, only for Littlefinger to seize power afterwards. As others have said, I don't really care as long as it's good. I do think there's a real chance he will have the Others win though.