Would you like a really grim ending

[First of the First Men]

Character equals plot but with an ensemble cast no character can be the whole plot and no single character should resolve the plot.

This.

It shouldn't be a "Messi's doing it alone" kind of thing. It should be a team performance, preferably with an unlikely team. Dany teaming up with the guy who killed her father for example.

[First of the First Men]

What aspect of the story does GRRM's "bittersweet" or the "grim" ending discussed here actually refer to?

I've always thought that GRRM was talking about the "ASOIAF" ending, i. e. the fight against the others, because he mentioned the ending of The Lord of the Rings which really impressed him when he first read it. But it could also refer to the "GOT" ending, i. e. the resolution of the power struggle between the great houses. The bitter message would be "all is vanity" or something to that effect, especially in the face of armageddon. But the sweet part could be that honor has its advantages.

In the GOT, so far the story has been a lot more bitter than sweet.

Let's just say for argument's sake that the Starks are the good guys and the Lannisters the villains. The summary would then be that the good guys have suffered a lot. There has been some reversal of fortunes since the RW, but from a Stark perspective that does not look like justice or vengeance:

• Someone concluded for completely unrelated reasons that sadistic psychopaths must be removed and poisoned Joffrey.
  
• Tyrion concluded that Tywin must die. This was some kind of vengeance, but it had nothing to do with the RW or the Starks.
  
• Theon was not executed for sacking Winterfell, but tortured into insanity by someone who couldn't care less about the Starks.
  
• Arya has actually shortened her hit list, but she never managed to kill anybody who harmed her family herself.
  
• Cersei is going to self-destruct.
  
• The BWB started out as a social movement dealing out justice (albeit without the comtemporary division of powers), but under LS it has become a tool for her personal revenge for the RW, without any concern for the smallfolk.
  
• The case coming closest to vengeance is Janos Slynt being beheaded by Jon. But fortunately that was not done because Slynt was instrumental in beheading Ned but because he refused to follow Jon's orders. An obvious act of revenge would have undermined Jon's authority instead of improving Jon's standing with Stannis. Jon has no family anymore after all, only brothers. The beheading was foreshadowed in AGOT when Sansa wishes "some hero" would chop off Slynt's head, but it was no justice for Ned, not even vengeance. Maybe bad karma on Slynt's part.
  

I'm putting a lot of hope in the GNC. I believe there will ultimately be justice for the Starks, in the sense that the bad guys will lose power and the Starks will be reinstated to some degree. Keep in mind that the name of the last volume in the then trilogy was "A Time for Wolves". The Boltons will get their comeuppance, and after that the North will somehow be ready to deal with the Others.

I could live with a grim ASOIAF ending quite well, but a grim GOT ending would be hard to stomach.

[Marcus Agrippa]

This.

It shouldn't be a "Messi's doing it alone" kind of thing. It should be a team performance, preferably with an unlikely team. Dany teaming up with the guy who killed her father for example.

I mean roberts dead i have seen therioes of her and stannis working together- but most of those involve Marriage. I think with all the similarities invovled with those two being the current rightful heirs of their respective dynstany- If Stannis dies Daenerys is dead- maybe not the same book but she will die. I have relfected on the storeis end quite a bit since I first read this post- any good ending has to be with the Targs and the Baratheons ending on the same rung of the latter. Jon most likely stick to his stark ways. I don't see the dragon becoming a big part of him. I also throughly suspect Jon will hate himself by the end of the series. Realizing that his birth caused so much death and destruction all because of the actions of two hyper-ego idiots and a girl who just couldn't contain her lust. I feel bad for the guy. He really has had a shit life and it doesn't look like its going to get any better.

[First of the First Men]

I mean roberts dead i have seen therioes of her and stannis working together

I was referring to Jaime actually :)

[Narvi]

I definitely want some closure. I would like light grey to triumph over dark grey.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I was referring to Jaime actually :)

It's Roberts victories that killed Aerys- Jamie might literally killed him but it only happen because of Robert.

[Lion of the West]

I want it to be bitter and sweet, a little of both to fit with the feel of the story.

[SeanF]

Almost certainly, some sympathetic characters will be killed or ruined by other sympathetic characters.

Remember the Golden Rule: "if you think has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

[Fisch]

Given the title of the last book (assuming it will be the last) and Martin's "bittersweet" statement, I'd predict (and hope for) a truly horrible conflict with heavy losses, but the survivors' knowing the best way forward and working toward the future with (cautious) hope.

[ummester]

Well, the books remaining are The Winds of Winter - when winter and The Others will finally fricken' come to Westeros, I hope and A Dream of Spring.

Note that the last book is a 'dream' of spring - doesn't mean a happy ending, just the hope that something happy may happen when spring comes.

I haven't finished reading the books but it seems pretty clear to me that there are a bunch of primary characters on their heroes journeys - Dany, Jon, Bran, Sansa and Arya and a bunch of secondary characters that are often used for dramatic irony that fleshes out how the story telling world works. Tyrion is a big wild card - he's not on a heroes journey and the best I can make of him is that he is the primary reader association character. Also of note is that the 2 main monomyths - Dany and Jon - were obvious to me after the first episode of the TV show - there is just too much Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter et al in them to be ignored.

Stannis, Jamie, cerise et al are secondary - but they are important for setting up the final conflict, IMO. Stannis in particular is a very marshal character - who gets fan love for being the most technically just in a dog eat dog story world.

An ending that now seems very likely to me is Stannis ending up on the throne, Dany destroying Kings Landing and the throne to wrest it from Stannis (think Harrenhall) and then winter (The Others and the Starks) having an impact on Dany. Who knows exactly how that end game will play out other than Martin and perhaps the show producers? Though I do think this will provide the ultimate bittersweet resolution. Martin has also promised to explain how the seasons and Others work in Westoros, with the bittersweet conclusion and that it will be magical in nature, so it stands to reason that the Others, dragons, prophecies, seasons and things like the red star are somehow linked.

[Davrum]

This.

It shouldn't be a "Messi's doing it alone" kind of thing. It should be a team performance, preferably with an unlikely team. Dany teaming up with the guy who killed her father for example.

I like the Dany/Jaime team up idea too.

[The Mother of The Others]

I can see Stormy becoming a member of Team Outcast along with Jon and Jaime when her forces are co-opted first by the Ironborn and then Aegon, who will have everyone believing the lie so when Dany tries to tell the truth about him nobody will listen and she'll have to make a run for it, leaving behind the dragon's share of her power base. and she of the magical drake allies will be quicker to believe news of magical foes to the north than the rest of the southerners. that'll be where she high-tails it off to, and then just give her and Jaime some humanity-saving action movie stuff to do on the battlefield first before they ever have the sit-down chat, so that they already have gratitude for one another before they ever talk about their pasts. Then sprinkle in the truth of what actually happened with Aerys, and we might hear Stormy say, "The truth just cost me a lot of friends, so maybe it's time I use this truth to renew a friendship between our two houses."

[Addam of Hull]

snip

I have a sneaking suspicion that the "game" and the "song" aren't as independent of each other as people think. Jeor Mormont asks if it really matters who sits on the Iron Throne when the dead rise. He says it doesn't, but I think the books have indicated otherwise. The political structure of Westeros will be critical to it's ability to wage war against the Others when the time comes. The two parts will ultimately converge because of that.

[ummester]

The political structure of Westeros will be critical to it's ability to wage war against the Others when the time comes. The two parts will ultimately converge because of that.

In essence I agree that it has to end up somewhere around here.

There are 2 things to consider, however:

1) The Others may not end up being the enemy of all human factions in the tale - a human faction could side with them. A human faction could determine that the Others and Winter is meant to come, for the greater good.

2) The parts may converge in opposition.

[Addam of Hull]

In essence I agree that it has to end up somewhere around here.

There are 2 things to consider, however:

1) The Others may not end up being the enemy of all human factions in the tale - a human faction could side with them. A human faction could determine that the Others and Winter is meant to come, for the greater good.

2) The parts may converge in opposition.

Well yes. My ultimate point is that the "Game of Thrones" will ultimately be linked to the "Song of Ice and Fire" -- or the political side of the story will eventually wed the mystical side. I think a straight humans v. Others war is unlikely, though, and I mostly used that example for the sake of brevity rather than my own personal belief. I'm a proponent of the belief that any conflict between humanity and the Others, even one where a faction of humans sides with the others, will ultimately end with a pact forged, mirroring the one that First Men and the Children forged all those years ago.

[ummester]

Yes, I agree that the saga should resolve by bringing the political and fantastical elements of the story together. The Others and Dany's dragons have to play a part in the resolution and a new pact does make sense. Hopefully GRRM has taken this into account :D