Is Dany too idealistic to be a great queen/leader?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Seeing as I was responding to a post about Jaime and Theon receiving a lot of shit for their mistakes, I'd like you to explain exactly how my argument is strawman. I'm not just talking out of my ass here, there have been polls and polls and polls and Jaime, Theon and Arya emerge either as the best written or favourite. Please sir, I have the time to hear about the strawman nature of my post.

Sure. You are talking to me at the moment. You know my opinion on Jaime, Theon and Arya? It isn't what you claim. I'm actually sharing your opinion on them.

You lump me together with opinions I don't share at all and attack me for an opinion I'm actually quite vocally opposed to. Classic strawman.

That's my personal beef with it. But it applies to many other posters as well.

Furthermore, considering some POV as best written or favorite is in no way related to considering the actual person morally upright or competent. It's completely unrelated.

[Dicer]

(1) Outwitting and manipulating for me are signs of cunning rather than intelligence. Dany is certainly cunning as she proved in taking the SB. The poster claimed that Dany is extremely intelligent and I opposed that idea. That does not mean that I think Dany has no intelligence. She knows several languages and was able to learn Dothraki pretty quick. But I must also say that she does not read much, especially things about Westeros. We also see that she could not remember which Aegon said the quote she recalled. Extremely intelligent people never do that in the series.

(2) Stannis accepted the wildlings to the Realm, gave them food, land and protection. Although I despise how he managed this whole business, it can be said to be something he did for his Realm and his smallfolk. We are yet to see how fAegon will fare but according to Varys, he can emphatize with the smallfolk. Jon learned to stand equal with the sweepings of the Realm, befriended them and gained their respect.

Dany decided to stay in Meereen and rule the city to spare it from the fates of Yunkai and Astapor. She accepted her own responsibility and I admire her for that. But her story in SB is not finished yet and we will see at what condition will the SB be when she leaves for good. And if there are to be improvements in SB, how much of them will be attributed to Dany and how much of them will be attributed to Tyrion/Vicky/any Meereenese.

Most of Dany's arc in late ASoS and ADwD is about how good intentions leading to bad results.

(5) The way she compromises in ADwD or deals with her enemies are really troublesome IMO. Besides, I don't think Dany is aware of all her mistakes. For example, she has no idea why Qarth does not wish to trade with them and I bet she would be shocked to see that Volantis sent a massive fleet to kill/enslave them all. As far as she is concerned, she did nothing to antagonize them but as Qavo noted, she disrupted the great slave trade spanning all over Essos and Dany is not aware of that.

1. I think being cunning needs a degree of intelligence. Let's remember that characters like Dany and Jon are dealing with older adults here. To outwit older, wiser folks requires a certain level of intelligence. Of course we can't compare their intelligence to the likes of Varys or LF. But I do think that Jon and Dany do rather well in terms of strategic thinking, planning and leading. Jon does better than Dany in terms of long term planning, administration, negotiation etc., but Dany has the edge when it comes to leadership capabilities and outwitting/manipulating the enemy. She may not be book smart, but then that is not exactly a requirement for intelligence. Taking their age into consideration, I would say that Dany and Jon are more intelligent than the other teens in the series.

2. Stannis let the Wildlings in for strategic reasons. Not out of the kindness of his heart. That was also one of the reasons that Jon lets them in. There is a possible imminent attack by the Others. Hardhome is already gone. But what does Stannis do? He leaves to continue his campaign in the North. Not exactly selfless. As for Jon, I agree that he also has compassion for the underdog, but he is not trying to get the IT is he? We are talking about folks wanting to rule. As for Aegon, we don't anything about this guy yet. Just growing up among the small folk does not necessarily imply that he will fight for the under dog.

Whatever the outcome of Yunkai, Astapor and Meereen, that does not change the fact that Dany's intentions were to get rid of slavery. Her intentions were noble. Unlike the other guys vying for the throne, she went to bat for the little guy. That makes her stand out.

5. I don't think anyone can be aware of all their mistakes. Dany is human, not God and omniscient. If you expect her to figure everything out then she would need to be a teenage LF or Varys. She was dealing with some very clever people and trying to navigate a minefield which included insurgency, famine, disease etc. That fact that she opened the pits indicates that she realizes that she cannot just totally shut down the slave trade all at once. She does realize that her disrupting the slave trade had consequences and towards the end of ADwD she was beginning to take steps to get the city back on track when everything goes to hell.

In short, I think for a young Queen, Dany has done rather well. She did start out to be idealistic, but her experiences in actually ruling has taught her some valuable lessons and brought her down to earth. I think we will continue to see a wrathful and fierce Dany (A Dragon plants no trees) but it will be mixed with experience and better planning.

I guess he got stabbed by his own men because of all the great decisions he was making. :rolleyes:

I don't blame Jon getting stabbed on Jon's stupidity. I blame that on Marsh's stupidity. I don't think it's fair to label someone stupid just because they could not convince a bigot like Marsh to get over his hatred of the wildlings. I don't correlate the numerous assassination attempts on Dany to her level of intelligence either.

Neither Jon or Dany are stupid. Both characters are remarkably intelligent for their age and in comparison to adults twice their age (Jaime, Cersei etc.)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Whatever the outcome of Yunkai, Astapor and Meereen, that does not change the fact that Dany's intentions were to get rid of slavery. Her intentions were noble. Unlike the other guys vying for the throne, she went to bat for the little guy. That makes her stand out.

And here I thought she did it to gain an army without needing to pay for it.

[Winter's Knight]

Are these numbers completely made up or what? I seriously doubt between Astapor and Meereen the numbers are anywhere near that. If you have quotes from the text proving me wrong by all means do provide them.

How much of a population do you to figure to remain in Astapor and the surrounding countryside?

I don't think medieval cities held more than two hundred thousand people, really-Athens today has today has barely 800,000. So unless Dany slaughtered every man, woman and child in Astapor, free or slave, she's not toching 200, 000.

[Winter's Knight]

And here I thought she did it to gain an army without needing to pay for it.

Lord, it's almost like people have complex motivations or something.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I don't think medieval cities held more than two hundred thousand people, really-Athens today has today has barely 800,000. So unless Dany slaughtered every man, woman and child in Astapor, free or slave, she's not toching 200, 000.

We know that Kings Landing has 500,000. We know that Essosi cities are bigger than Westerosi ones.

[Winter's Knight]

We know that Kings Landing has 500,000. We know that Essosi cities are bigger than Westerosi ones.

We also know that a large portion of said populations were slaves, and that an average of 50,000 of said slaves were murdered for every fresh batch of Unsullied in Astapor alone.

Dany did not bring death and destruction to Slaver's Bay, she brought death and destruction to slavers-the slaves were dying in the tens of thousands anyway.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We also know that a large portion of said populations were slaves, and that an average of 50,000 of said slaves were murdered for every fresh batch of Unsullied in Astapor alone.

Dany did not bring death and destruction to Slaver's Bay, she brought death and destruction to slavers-the slaves were dying in the tens of thousands anyway.

Yes. That is not connected to the catastrophy her politics were though.

[SeanF]

Re city-size, I think that 500,000 would be plausible for Meereen, which is as big as Astapor and Yunkai combined.

One can only speculate about how many people were killed at Astapor on Dany's orders, and then subsequently, due to Cleon's tyranny, faction-fighting, starvation, and finally the siege and storming of the city by the Slavers.

Re Dany's intelligence, I'd say it's above-average. She's quite often shrewd and cunning, reads and writes, and has a natural gift for languages. She's let down by her lack of education.

[SeanF]

Dicer, I think that for an untrained 13-16 year old, her record has been remarkable.

But, I think that her story also demonstrates why we don't give huge amounts of political power to untrained 13-16 year olds.

[Ingelheim]

Re city-size, I think that 500,000 would be plausible for Meereen, which is as big as Astapor and Yunkai combined.

One can only speculate about how many people were killed at Astapor on Dany's orders, and then subsequently, due to Cleon's tyranny, faction-fighting, starvation, and finally the siege and storming of the city by the Slavers.

Re Dany's intelligence, I'd say it's above-average. She's quite often shrewd and cunning, reads and writes, and has a natural gift for languages. She's let down by her lack of education.

I'd say, at least, 700,000 for Meereen. Essosi cities are far bigger than Westerosi ones, it seems.

[Hodor's Dragon]

The post you quoted was so biased that I didn't even feel like answering. She's apparently Jesus reborn.

You didn't even talked about (3). Why does Dany care more about the smallfolk than anyone else? Hell, even Tywin (who released the Mountain etc.) tried to say he was being good to the smallfok. I mean, just look at Jon...

Again, I'm not saying Dany is bad because she wants to restore her family's dynasty over everything else. A lot of nobles fight for that kind of stuff. But saying she's planning to land on Westeros with dragons for the sake of the smallfolk is pure wishful thinking.

You said:

I don't think Dany-fans have any good reason to believe she will be a good queen other than that she's not mad and evil.

I didn't write that post as a balanced view of Dany, I wrote it in response to you saying there were no reasons to think she would be a good queen. I gave you 7 reasons. Everything I said is in the books.

I'm just guessing, but I think the reason Paper Waver left off disputing #3 is because it's so obvious. Dany risked her life on more than one occasion to free slaves. She has put off seeking her crown to free slaves. She married a man she didn't love so that her emancipation campaign wouldn't fail. Jon has made some sacrifices for the wildlings flocking to Hardhome, so you could argue for him, but personally I would say he has put significantly less effort into their plight than Dany has put into the plight of the slaves, so if we had to rank them I would put him 2nd. None of the other contenders have done anything for smallfolk.

[SeanF]

Ser Edmure Tully and Lady Catelyn both care about the Smallfolk, as well. A handful of nobles are monsters (who would fit in well in Slavers Bay), but the most common attitude towards the Smallfolk is one of selfish indifference (eg the nobles in the Red Keep stuffing their faces, while the inhabitants of Kings Landing starved).

Dany certainly cares a good deal about them, and about her servants.

[Steelborn]

Another Dany hate thread? YAS!

The conclusion in her last chapter got me thinking she'll destroy, burn everything that stands on her way. That's what dragons do. Or Martin will just make her like Rhaenyra Targaryen during the Dance of the Dragons. I'd rather the first option (is there much difference between the two though?).

Well, and I don't think she'll be a good queen, if she conquers and let others rule for her, then fine. But, seeing her as she is, she won't and ruling will be hard 2.0.

[Hodor's Dragon]

(1) The only people I find extremely intelligent in the series are Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle (yes), Aemon, Luwin (in fact let us stop with the maesters here), Missandei, Rodrik Harlaw, and Tyrion.

I think Dany is better described as a "resourceful conqueror" instead of extremely intelligent, given her military campaigns in SB. But the world is big, not everywhere is SB, there are more wars ahead and Robb was much more resourceful than Dany.

I think there is very good reason to describe her as a military genius. I believe that is what Martin wants us to think. He gives us significantly more insight into her battle planning than he does for any other commander. From a military perspective, her conquests of the 3 slaver cities were each basically impossible, yet Daenerys - who was what? 14 or 15 at the time? With no military training? - conquered each promptly, and devised the battle plans entirely herself. No other commander has a record like that. Stannis has known defeat. Robb is certainly meant to be perceived as an excellent battle commander, but his victories were not so much against the odds as hers, and he eventually thrust himself and a large portion of his force into a fatal trap. Plus Robb was educated for military command and was carrying out his training, not acting on inherent talent.

You may say that Astapor was not a "military" conquest, but Clausewitz defines war as "politics by other means." She took political control of Astapor "by other means."

(2) It is unfair to claim that none of the other claimants share these thoughts. I agree, and I didn't say that. I said her desire to rule well differentiates her starkly from some of the other contenders. I think it gives her an edge on all of them except Jon, who isn't actually thinking about ruling now, but would probably have a similar priority on ruling well if king. I give her and Jon a slight edge on Stannis, who has a big parcel of getting "them" (mostly Robert) back for all the injustice they've done him mixed in with his desire to be a good king. They all mean well and they all want to rule well. - Euron? Cersei? - However, the specs of a good rule are different for different claimants.

(4) Though I don't like Stannis at all, his followers are as fierce/loyal as Dany's. Melisandre, Davos and Celyse are. The rest of them are retainers, or followers of Melisandre or Celyse. Dany has huge hordes chanting "Mhysa: for her, and her story is spreading across a continent like a flash fire. Outside of his small circle, Stannis is the unloved one: that's his gig; that's why Renly claimed the crown. There's really no comparison. And unlike Dany, Stannis suffered a major defeat and still have followers. True enough. The ironborn follow Euron's lead very well and they are the most loyal subjects as long as Euron's victories come. His main lieutenant, if you want to call Victarion that (which I think you should) hates him with the fire of a thousand suns. When he started talking about going after dragons instead of raiding the Westerlands at the feast, everybody started shit-talking him and he walked out.

(5) Can you be more specific? Because even Cersei acts introspective occasionally. I didn't state this one comparatively, but I could. But it's hard to be specific because the main point is that Dany is virtually always privately questioning whether she is doing the right thing. I don't think Cersei is introspective in a "question herself" manner at all. Cersei gives in quickly to her delusions and then all her calculations are based on them.

(6) Assuming that she survives that long, - of course - or Westeros does not get burned for learning new lessons. From a story dynamics viewpoint, I just don't see the books leading this direction. Dany is a hero, not a villain.

(7) I go with crashing spectacularly. That would not surprise me, but if she crashes, it will be in a moment of heroicism.

[Dolorous22]

I'd say naive more than anything. She wants to do right by the people she rules but it hasn't gotten her very far. I would like a Dany rampage so lets hope GRRM takes it in that direction. I'm bored of her melancholy, loneliness and despair. She's a dragon, it's time to act like one.

Burn 'em all Dany.

[kimim]

1. I think being cunning needs a degree of intelligence. Let's remember that characters like Dany and Jon are dealing with older adults here. To outwit older, wiser folks requires a certain level of intelligence. Of course we can't compare their intelligence to the likes of Varys or LF. But I do think that Jon and Dany do rather well in terms of strategic thinking, planning and leading. Jon does better than Dany in terms of long term planning, administration, negotiation etc., but Dany has the edge when it comes to leadership capabilities and outwitting/manipulating the enemy. She may not be book smart, but then that is not exactly a requirement for intelligence. Taking their age into consideration, I would say that Dany and Jon are more intelligent than the other teens in the series.

2. Stannis let the Wildlings in for strategic reasons. Not out of the kindness of his heart. That was also one of the reasons that Jon lets them in. There is a possible imminent attack by the Others. Hardhome is already gone. But what does Stannis do? He leaves to continue his campaign in the North. Not exactly selfless. As for Jon, I agree that he also has compassion for the underdog, but he is not trying to get the IT is he? We are talking about folks wanting to rule. As for Aegon, we don't anything about this guy yet. Just growing up among the small folk does not necessarily imply that he will fight for the under dog.

Whatever the outcome of Yunkai, Astapor and Meereen, that does not change the fact that Dany's intentions were to get rid of slavery. Her intentions were noble. Unlike the other guys vying for the throne, she went to bat for the little guy. That makes her stand out.

5. I don't think anyone can be aware of all their mistakes. Dany is human, not God and omniscient. If you expect her to figure everything out then she would need to be a teenage LF or Varys. She was dealing with some very clever people and trying to navigate a minefield which included insurgency, famine, disease etc. That fact that she opened the pits indicates that she realizes that she cannot just totally shut down the slave trade all at once. She does realize that her disrupting the slave trade had consequences and towards the end of ADwD she was beginning to take steps to get the city back on track when everything goes to hell.

In short, I think for a young Queen, Dany has done rather well. She did start out to be idealistic, but her experiences in actually ruling has taught her some valuable lessons and brought her down to earth. I think we will continue to see a wrathful and fierce Dany (A Dragon plants no trees) but it will be mixed with experience and better planning.

I don't blame Jon getting stabbed on Jon's stupidity. I blame that on Marsh's stupidity. I don't think it's fair to label someone stupid just because they could not convince a bigot like Marsh to get over his hatred of the wildlings. I don't correlate the numerous assassination attempts on Dany to her level of intelligence either.

Neither Jon or Dany are stupid. Both characters are remarkably intelligent for their age and in comparison to adults twice their age (Jaime, Cersei etc.)

1. I agree that cunning needs intelligence. LF is very cunning and very intelligent. Dany is no LF; she's shown no ability to manipulate, play politics, plan long-term. Only cunning we see is Dany's conquest of Astapor and Meereen. Once the places are taken, cunning disappears. Re her leadership skills: She is allowed to lead because of her birth and because of her dragons. She has shown zero ability to win over people who are not awed by those things.

2. Of course Jon and Stannis let the wildlings in for strategic reasons. Jon then makes a deal with the Iron Bank to feed all the new people. Dany? She leaves Astapor, blithely believing all will be well. She got rid of slavery, right? So tens of thousands die, directly as a result of Dany's actions. After Astapor, she has a huge number of people following her, not because of strategic reasons, but for emotional ones: She's their mommy, yadda yadda. Only problem: Babies need food. So she conquers Meereen, letting herself in for all manner of problems. As someone said on another thread, it's mission creep with a vengeance, caused by zero knowledge of the cultures she's invading, and by complete lack of foresight.

5. Dany chooses to be unaware of her mistakes. As an early example, see her response to sacrificing her own kid to get Drogo back. She did it; MMD reminds her that she did it. Yet she thinks it over, then blocks. Dany is a master blocker.

Re how this will all end: Insurgency, disease, and famine are not conducive to the creation of new ways of being, and insurgency, disease, and famine have affected everyone, ex-slaves and slavers alike. If anything, these cultures will likely return to their old ways, as soon as Dany leaves Essos.

Re Dany's youth: Dany is young by our standards, but not by the standards of Westeros. Put it this way, Jon's a genius in comparison.

[TheMysteriousOne]

It's relevant because Dany is obviously ignorant about Westeros. We have a series of contenders for the IT. We know deciding who is better based on "claims" is silly because Targs lost the throne before she was born and a long time ago. Now everything is unstable. We have another "Targ" (f)Aegon, so it will be basically decided by war. In this sense, Dany's claim is... dragons.

If you're listing pros and cons, the fact that Dany doesn't even know who the Martells are is certainly not good.

Who cares that the Targaryens lost the throne before she was born? Being born after such an event should never be a valid reason not to pursue, in her mind, at least, one's rights. In addition, House Targaryen only lost the throne 17 years prior to ADWD, versus 283 years of ruling. The overwhelming majority of Westeros was alive during the reign of House Targaryen, so, no, the rebellion was not a 'long time ago'.

1) Agreed. So she's just like everyone else: power hungry and no ideals. Except the Baratheon-Stark-Arryn-Tully rebellion actually had a reason: overthrowing a mad incestuous dynasty who thought they could burn people alive because they were demi-gods. That's an ideal right there.

I mean, sure... Bob was bad, Tywin worse and things went downhill. I don't know who's getting the throne, but yeah, Dany is probably better than Joffrey. I'm not rooting for Stannis, I don't see the point since I truly believe he's dying in the next book. But I can't see how anyone could say Bob's rebellion wasn't right.

It's sad that right now we don't have any serious contender (sorry Stannis fans) defending the true legacy of the rebellion. But removing Aerys was certainly an act of justice.

I can see why some people think Dany should be Queen. Basically she's better than the Lannisters. But if she's to be a good queen, she should start from scratch, not do it to restore her father's legacy... Not once does she think about that. Not once does she think Aerys burning people alive was bad. 2)Maybe in the future, but right now Dany is fighting to restore that wicked dynasty. I can't root for that, I can't see how anyone would.

1) LOL, first of all, I meant that Dany is not different than anyone else, with regards to her ideas of kingship, which is hardly immoral, since even the best of characters such as Ned, Davos and Brienne have not even thought of democracy at all, and find kingship to perfectly acceptable, and even ideal.

Secondly, I don't see how anyone can say that Daenerys, the Breaker of Chains, has no ideals. Are you talking about the young woman who could've taken her Unsullied to Westeros to get back the throne, but stayed in Slaver's Bay to free the rest of the slaves. Are you talking about the girl who decided to be the queen of Meereen, in order to rectify her mistakes and to keep her children safe? We must not be talking about the same person.

2) You must be against the idea of all dynasties in this series, because every dynasty will have members that believe that they are superior to their subjects, so a feeling of superiority is not just some anomalous trait found only with the Targaryens, like you're trying to make it seem. Being born into a family with hereditary power over the lives of millions can turn anyone into an arrogant prick. So singling out the Targaryens as a "wicked dynasty" is unfair. You presume to know that every Targaryen who has ever lived was a bad, wicked person. Which is entirely untrue.

The Targaryens made many positive contributions to the wellbeing of Westerosi society. Jaehaerys I, for example, built the Kingsroad and his wife donated her jewels to the Night's Watch, in order for them to build more castles and pay for defense. Jaehaerys also banned the abominable practice of the First Night and even ended the bickering between House Blackwood and Bracken for half a century. Other Targaryens did good as well. If you wish to only see an entire family as power-crazed, arrogant monsters, then that's your opinion, and one that is hardly supported by the text.

The rebellion was justified, yes. Aerys needed to go. But why did they need to overthrow the entire dynasty? Oh yeah, because Robert was angry about what Rhaegar did, and used thousands of soldiers to get what he wanted. Were they completely justified in letting thousands die for their causes? And here I was thinking that they were the paragons of virtue.

All of the nobility do this. They also all believe that they are the best and that people should die for their personal causes. I accept this because this is a prevalent view in the books( and I'm quite sure you do as well), yet you fault Dany for not thinking differently about the right to rule.

What if restoring House Targaryen to the Iron Throne and making the people of Westeros happy contradict each other? What would she choose? I'm yet to see anyone (besides the likes of Ramsay maybe) actively wish to see the people suffer. Dany may dream of a perfect world as much as she wants. Her actions will tell the true story. I haven't seem a single moment when Dany wonders seriously about the impact of her arrival on people's lives. She doesn't even seem to know what's happening in Westeros at all.

So yeah, it's hard for me to believe she's all about the well being of the smallfolk... She's playing the game just as anyone else. I mean, even Varys has the excuse that (f)Aegon is the "perfect king".

Why would restoring House Targaryen and making the people of Westeros happy necessarily have to contradict each other? After all, there have always been kings in Westeros. What about the Targaryens makes them worse than the others? After all, the Targaryens ruled without dragons longer than they did with them.

Yes, most of the nobility do not actively wish to see people suffer, because they...don't give a shit about them in the first place. At least Dany cares about her subjects, despite their social status.

Yeah. For all the bad she's done in the first place, that's a good thing IMO (except things would be better if she just left, but she doesn't seem to be capable to understand any reality where she's not at the very center of everything). But she seems to come to a totally different conclusion in her latest chapter. She's going all fire and blood and not planting trees and being a god and making Targs own everything because well... dragons.

But hey. I'm just a Dany hater. Let's create strawmen and post again and again without ever saying what the hell are Dany's ideals or plans for Westeros other than that everyone should bend the knee because... dragons.

How can you possibly believe that things would be better if Daenerys just left Meereen. Thousands upon thousands of slaves would be re-enslaved and would likely live in a worse world because of their support for Daenerys, but you seem to imply that this is a good thing. And you're reading of Dany is quite incorrect because she is quite unselfish. Again, are you talking about the young woman who could've taken her Unsullied to Westeros to get back the throne, but stayed in Slaver's Bay to free the rest of the slaves. Are you talking about the girl who, despite the risks of getting the Pale Mare, left the safety and comforts of Meereen to go feed and nourish the sick and dying Astapori?

Finally, please list one person who does not feel that it is his/her 'right' to have the throne.

Oh, and this is hilarious. So I'm the one making 'strawmen', but you're the one saying that I think that Dany should rule Westeros because she has dragons. I have never said that. It seems like you're the one making strawmen.

[Justin Amey]

Absolutely, that is how I see Dany's mentality from now on towards anyone who is opposed her, whereever she goes, especially Westeros.

Aegon the 1st was the same way, where are his "he's evil, and mad" rants at?

[Mithras]

Aegon the 1st was the same way, where are his "he's evil, and mad" rants at?

No he wasn't.