Is Dany too idealistic to be a great queen/leader?

[Ser Greg of House House]

(1) The only people I find extremely intelligent in the series are Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle (yes), Aemon, Luwin (in fact let us stop with the maesters here), Missandei, Rodrik Harlaw, and Tyrion.

I think Dany is better described as a "resourceful conqueror" instead of extremely intelligent, given her military campaigns in SB. But the world is big, not everywhere is SB, there are more wars ahead and Robb was much more resourceful than Dany.

(2) It is unfair to claim that none of the other claimants share these thoughts. They all mean well and they all want to rule well. However, the specs of a good rule are different for different claimants.

(4) Though I don't like Stannis at all, his followers are as fierce/loyal as Dany's. And unlike Dany, Stannis suffered a major defeat and still have followers. The ironborn follow Euron's lead very well and they are the most loyal subjects as long as Euron's victories come.

(5) Can you be more specific? Because even Cersei acts introspective occasionally.

(6) Assuming that she survives that long, or Westeros does not get burned for new experiences.

(7) I go with crashing spectacularly.

The post you quoted was so biased that I didn't even feel like answering. She's apparently Jesus reborn.

You didn't even talked about (3). Why does Dany care more about the smallfolk than anyone else? Hell, even Tywin (who released the Mountain etc.) tried to say he was being good to the smallfok. I mean, just look at Jon...

Again, I'm not saying Dany is bad because she wants to restore her family's dynasty over everything else. A lot of nobles fight for that kind of stuff. But saying she's planning to land on Westeros with dragons for the sake of the smallfolk is pure wishful thinking.

[David Selig]

Oh god. It's one thing to say that some westerosi take their sigils too seriously. Which we know is at least half bs, btw, since westerosi sigils are much more meaningul than their real life counterparts. It's a magical world. Hell, all this generation of Starks can mind-control direwolves... Anyway it's just a jape. Besides crazy Targs, what other westerosi nobles are pretending to be animals?

The Lannisters can't shut up about being lions.

Dany means to rule the Westerosi (something Illyrio is not) and therefore, she should better get used to that fetishism. In fact, Targaryens and their dragons are the most extreme cases of such fetishism in Westeros.

Except that Targs are the one case where the fetishism actually makes sense given their bond with dragons and that the dragons were what made them powerful.

Dany will learn the sigils when necessary - when she is about to face Westerosi on the battlefield. Until then there isn't much point.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Except that Targs are the one case where the fetishism actually makes sense given their bond with dragons and that the dragons were what made them powerful.

Dany will learn the sigils when necessary - when she is about to face Westerosi on the battlefield. Until then there isn't much point.

Right. Because Dorne's sun and spear(s) never did anything for the Martells... Like beating dragons.

[David Selig]

Right. Because Dorne's sun and spear(s) never did anything for the Martells... Like beating dragons.

The sun and spear sigil never did anything, true.

[Dicer]

(1) The only people I find extremely intelligent in the series are Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle (yes), Aemon, Luwin (in fact let us stop with the maesters here), Missandei, Rodrik Harlaw, and Tyrion.

I think Dany is better described as a "resourceful conqueror" instead of extremely intelligent, given her military campaigns in SB. But the world is big, not everywhere is SB, there are more wars ahead and Robb was much more resourceful than Dany.

(2) It is unfair to claim that none of the other claimants share these thoughts. They all mean well and they all want to rule well. However, the specs of a good rule are different for different claimants.

(4) Though I don't like Stannis at all, his followers are as fierce/loyal as Dany's. And unlike Dany, Stannis suffered a major defeat and still have followers. The ironborn follow Euron's lead very well and they are the most loyal subjects as long as Euron's victories come.

(5) Can you be more specific? Because even Cersei acts introspective occasionally.

(6) Assuming that she survives that long, or Westeros does not get burned for learning new lessons.

(7) I go with crashing spectacularly.

1.I think she and Jon are reasonably intelligent among the teenagers. She went from someone with no power to Queen, managing to outwit and manipulate a few folks to get there. I think the reason she lagged in ADwD was a loss of confidence in her abilities to govern when faced with a series of problems that cropped up one after the other. There was a lot of self doubt in her decisions which hampered her rule in Meereen

2.Sure they all mean well, but no ruler has actually done anything for the people so far except for Dany. She went into this massive undertaking, halting her quest for the Iron Throne, to help the slaves of Essos. This shows an inclination in her to help the underdog. Which is something I find lacking in the other guys.

5.Cersei introspects, but does not always come to the right conclusion. Dany on the other hand is insightful enough to admit her mistakes and tries to change her course based on those mistakes. She enters Meereen, all wrathful conqueror, avenging the slaves. But slowly, as the city unravels before her and she is faced with crisis upon crisis, she realizes that her way was not the right one. She learns to compromise, to deal with the enemy. She bends instead of breaking. Something, that I am not sure that even Stannis has learned.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

millions of dead?

After two years, she is already a couple hundred thousand in. Maybe even above a million. Give her another 18 with that record...

It's not. It's a freaking picture with very limited usefulness. The fetishism with which the Westerosi treat their sigils is absurd.

Yes. So what? The Westerosi care. Deal with it.

[Mithras]

1.I think she and Jon are reasonably intelligent among the teenagers. She went from someone with no power to Queen, managing to outwit and manipulate a few folks to get there. I think the reason she lagged in ADwD was a loss of confidence in her abilities to govern when faced with a series of problems that cropped up one after the other. There was a lot of self doubt in her decisions which hampered her rule in Meereen

2.Sure they all mean well, but no ruler has actually done anything for the people so far except for Dany. She went into this massive undertaking, halting her quest for the Iron Throne, to help the slaves of Essos. This shows an inclination in her to help the underdog. Which is something I find lacking in the other guys.

5.Cersei introspects, but does not always come to the right conclusion. Dany on the other hand is insightful enough to admit her mistakes and tries to change her course based on those mistakes. She enters Meereen, all wrathful conqueror, avenging the slaves. But slowly, as the city unravels before her and she is faced with crisis upon crisis, she realizes that her way was not the right one. She learns to compromise, to deal with the enemy. She bends instead of breaking. Something, that I am not sure that even Stannis has learned.

(1) Outwitting and manipulating for me are signs of cunning rather than intelligence. Dany is certainly cunning as she proved in taking the SB. The poster claimed that Dany is extremely intelligent and I opposed that idea. That does not mean that I think Dany has no intelligence. She knows several languages and was able to learn Dothraki pretty quick. But I must also say that she does not read much, especially things about Westeros. We also see that she could not remember which Aegon said the quote she recalled. Extremely intelligent people never do that in the series.

(2) Stannis accepted the wildlings to the Realm, gave them food, land and protection. Although I despise how he managed this whole business, it can be said to be something he did for his Realm and his smallfolk. We are yet to see how fAegon will fare but according to Varys, he can emphatize with the smallfolk. Jon learned to stand equal with the sweepings of the Realm, befriended them and gained their respect.

Dany decided to stay in Meereen and rule the city to spare it from the fates of Yunkai and Astapor. She accepted her own responsibility and I admire her for that. But her story in SB is not finished yet and we will see at what condition will the SB be when she leaves for good. And if there are to be improvements in SB, how much of them will be attributed to Dany and how much of them will be attributed to Tyrion/Vicky/any Meereenese.

Most of Dany's arc in late ASoS and ADwD is about how good intentions leading to bad results.

(5) The way she compromises in ADwD or deals with her enemies are really troublesome IMO. Besides, I don't think Dany is aware of all her mistakes. For example, she has no idea why Qarth does not wish to trade with them and I bet she would be shocked to see that Volantis sent a massive fleet to kill/enslave them all. As far as she is concerned, she did nothing to antagonize them but as Qavo noted, she disrupted the great slave trade spanning all over Essos and Dany is not aware of that.

[Ser Greg of House House]

The sun and spear sigil never did anything, true.

Well, as far as I remember there never was a real three headed dragon winning battles for the Targs...

The pro-Targ, pro-Dany bias is appalling. So apparently it is ok for Targs to commit suicide by stupidity drinking wildfire etc. because they are the "one case" (sic) where the sigil makes sense. Everyone else is a fool if they use their sigil in a metaphorical sense.

Even a horse knows the Martell sigil. But when Dany doesn't, suddenly sigils are utterly unimportant and it doesn't mean anything.

Hey, it's ok to like Dany. She has some interesting qualities. It's possible to defend she's the best contender, though I disagree. But to make up excuses and completely dismiss any of her shortcomings is kind of silly.

[David Selig]

I don't even like Dany much, she has plenty of flaws. But using the fact that she doesn't know a single sigil as a proof of her total ignorance of Westeros, as if these sigils are some crucial information to know for someone in her position is IMO quite wrong. So is the claim that since she didn't know the sigil of the Martell, she didn't know House Martell at all.

The pro-Targ, pro-Dany bias is appalling. So apparently it is ok for Targs to commit suicide by stupidity drinking wildfire etc. because they are the "one case" (sic) where the sigil makes sense.

Wait. I never claimed anything like that.

[Nictarion]

After two years, she is already a couple hundred thousand in. Maybe even above a million.

Are these numbers completely made up or what? I seriously doubt between Astapor and Meereen the numbers are anywhere near that. If you have quotes from the text proving me wrong by all means do provide them.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Are these numbers completely made up or what? I seriously doubt between Astapor and Meereen the numbers are anywhere near that. If you have quotes from the text proving me wrong by all means do provide them.

How much of a population do you to figure to remain in Astapor and the surrounding countryside?

[nastydream]

After two years, she is already a couple hundred thousand in. Maybe even above a million. Give her another 18 with that record...

How do you go from 200.000 thousand to one million exactly?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How do you go from 200.000 thousand to one million exactly?

"Couple hundred thousand" means an unspecified number between 200,000 and 999,999.

[Kyoshi]

I've been asking this question since I joined the forums yet no one is yet to answer:

What does it mean to be a good/great ruler?

Perhaps then we can have a meaningful debate as to whether or not posts like this one apply:

Dany is idealistic? If by indealistic you mean a arrogant ignorant insufferable delusional self entitled insolent stuck up brat, then yes.

...and whether or not Dany is a good ruler or can be one.

[nastydream]

"Couple hundred thousand" means an unspecified number between 200,000 and 999,999.

And how did you reach the 200.000-999.999 number?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

And how did you reach the 200.000-999.999 number?

That's a guess of the dead population based on the descriptions of Astapor (and Meereen).

[Kyoshi]

How much of a population do you to figure to remain in Astapor and the surrounding countryside?

Judging by the time period alone, cities are ca. 100 000 people large.

Also, I'm way too fucking high for this thread. Not today. No.

[RoamingRonin]

So what she didn't know the Martell sigil. What did Quentyn know about her? Not a damn thing. No one knows anything about her and yet there are a bunch of Westerosi on the way to her city with their own ulterior motives. No one cares about that, though. When Quentyn comes with entitlement issues and tries to steal her dragons (releasing them in the process and also getting himself killed, creating a PR nightmare for Dany), somehow he's a bloody hero.

Dany's not actually on her way to Westeros right now but Westeros is coming to her. But that's ok, though. If Victarion kills Hizdahr then that's fine. If Quent or Tyrion takes a dragon, that's fine too. But if Dany simply wants to conquer Westeros without making a move... Call the cops. Entitlement issues. Fire and blood. Will someone think of the children?

I hope she kills everyone then it won't be necessary to learn any sigils. The only banners raised will be white for surrender and submission.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Judging by the time period alone, cities are ca. 100 000 people large.

Kings Landing features 500,000. Essosi cities are way bigger than their Westerosi counterparts. Volantis, Braavos, Meereen and a coupe others may have more than a million each.

If I remember correctly, Dany got 80,000 refugees out of Astapor and way, way more stayed

[Kyoshi]

So what she didn't know the Martell sigil. What did Quentyn know about her? Not a damn thing. No one knows anything about her and yet there are a bunch of Westerosi on the way to her city with their own ulterior motives. No one cares about that, though. When Quentyn comes with entitlement issues and tries to steal her dragons (releasing them in the process and also getting himself killed, creating a PR nightmare for Dany), somehow he's a bloody hero.

Dany's not actually on her way to Westeros right now but Westeros is coming to her. But that's ok, though. If Victarion kills Hizdahr then that's fine. If Quent or Tyrion takes a dragon, that's fine too. But if Dany simply wants to conquer Westeros without making a move... Call the cops. Entitlement issues. Fire and blood. Will someone think of the children?

I hope she kills everyone then it won't be necessary to learn any sigils. The only banners raised will be white for surrender and submission.

How I love your post...

Kings Landing features 500,000. Essosi cities are way bigger than their Westerosi counterparts. Volantis, Braavos, Meereen and a coupe others may have more than a million each.

If I remember correctly, Dany got 80,000 refugees out of Astapor and way, way more stayed

I love how you can just quote these from the books. U must lend me a copy some time.