Is Dany too idealistic to be a great queen/leader?

[Nictarion]

If you're listing pros and cons, the fact that Dany doesn't even know who the Martells are is certainly not good.

I thought she just didn't know what their sigil is? Surely she knows Rhaegar was married to a Martell right?

[Lord Damian]

GRRM needs to in include the line "They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one" into the books. That was great.

Absolutely, that is how I see Dany's mentality from now on towards anyone who is opposed her, whereever she goes, especially Westeros.

[Lord Damian]

Numerous girls her age are into douches.

Justin Beiber?

[El Guapo]

I thought she just didn't know what their sigil is? Surely she knows Rhaegar was married to a Martell right?

She asked Barristan what their sigil was but she most definitely knows about House Martell.

[Ser Greg of House House]

She asked Barristan what their sigil was but she most definitely knows about House Martell.

Yes, sure... But that shows how she's definitely not ready to be Queen. She has some very flawed knowledge of the place she wants to rule. And Westeros is basically a power balace between the Great Houses.

I know there are people who will say Dany is mad, evil etc. That is clearly a stretch. But I don't think Dany-fans have any good reason to believe she will be a good queen other than that she's not mad and evil.

[Nictarion]

I know there are people who will say Dany is mad, evil etc. That is clearly a stretch. But I don't think Dany-fans have any good reason to believe she will be a good queen other than that she's not mad and evil.

She cares about the people she rules. That is a good start. Other than maybe Edmure Tully I can't think of many other highborn characters that have the concern for their people Dany has. The ruling will come with experience. I don't understand the mindset than Dany would be the exact same type of ruler for the rest of her life that she was as an inexperienced teenager. I'm also not ready to write her off as a failure because of Meereen.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

She cares about the people she rules. That is a good start. Other than maybe Edmure Tully I can't think of many other highborn characters that have the concern for their people Dany has. The ruling will come with experience. I don't understand the mindset than Dany would be the exact same type of ruler for the rest of her life that she was as an inexperienced teenager. I'm also not ready to write her off as a failure because of Meereen.

Well, twenty years of learning might change her.

Unfortunately, twenty years of learning would also mean millions of dead and a millstone of political blunders on her back to crush her a hundred times over.

[El Guapo]

millions of dead?

[Eat My Steel]

The short answer to th OP is -Yes, she is.

She will help save Westeros in some way and retire to her house with the red door in the end....

[Hodor's Dragon]

Yes, sure... But that shows how she's definitely not ready to be Queen. She has some very flawed knowledge of the place she wants to rule. And Westeros is basically a power balace between the Great Houses.

I know there are people who will say Dany is mad, evil etc. That is clearly a stretch. But I don't think Dany-fans have any good reason to believe she will be a good queen other than that she's not mad and evil.

I think she will - or would, rather - be a good queen, and it's not because I want to think that. Here are some of the reasons:

(1) She is extremely intelligent.

(2) She means well and has good intentions for the realm. She doesn't just want to rule, she wants to rule well. This is an extremely important factor and differentiates her dramatically from some of the contenders.

(3) She cares about the smallfolk more than any other contender. If you think that's irrelevant, than you and I have fundamentally different ideas about what it means to be a "good" queen.

(4) She is a charismatic leader, with an intuitive ability to win her followers' allegiance. As a general rule, her followers aren't just retainers, they are completely devoted to her and willing to sacrifice for her cause. No other contender can say that to anywhere near the same degree.

(5) She is very introspective, and is constantly evaluating her actions to note what worked and what did not. This combines well with factor (1). Since she is also very young and inexperienced, she should be expected to become much better at what she does at a pretty decent pace.

(6) Although she is inexperienced, she is rapidly rectifying that problem. By tackling the extremely complex problems she is currently tackling at such a young age, she has a chance to become an extremely experienced and veteran leader by the time she is 25 or 30, i.e., while she is still younger than any of the other contenders.

(7) Her accomplishments are pretty amazing. It is beyond dispute that, if you graphed power on an x/y chart, nobody else would have a power growth line nearly as steep as Dany's, and she's just 16 years old. Chattel/wife -> beloved wife/respected advisor -> dragon mom -> khaleesi of her own khalasar who she had to lead through the wilderness with little supplies -> Queen of 1 -> 2 -> 3 cities. Each promotion she earned on her own, or at least through her own plan and leadership. All this marks her as playing a heroic role in the story, and for that reason she is likely to either continue to be successful or to crash spectacularly. Becoming a great and powerful leader and then just kind of Peter Principle-ing out into mediocrity doesn't seem to fit into that dramatic arc.

I'm much more worried about her dying than becoming a poor or mediocre leader. I think she's destined for greatness if she survives.

[Disputatious]

l

Sounds like you're describing a lot of her detractors lol. (Because let's be real, there's nothing more arrogant, insufferable, self entitled and brat-like than someone who constantly posts about a character they hate. Get a life.)

Just so.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

OP: I do think Daenerys is too idealistic, but I don't think this will hinder her as a ruler yet.

I'll start with a reference to post #130 and say that all those things are true of Daenerys. But she also sometimes thinks without acting, and she does make mistakes that take their toll on her, and more of a toll on her people. But don't forget that the last time we "saw" her on page, she was literally awakening her dragon, and I think that when she returns to society, she will be a changed woman. I agree with Nictarion on this. Daenerys has the bones to be an amazing ruler, but she has had little to no training for the role besides jumping into the fire, literally and figuratively, and trying to take on that role. If she had the correct tools for the job I think she could do much better.

[Mithras]

None of those 163 were innocent.

The 163 children they crucified were innocent, those nailed up to mock Dany and her compassion. They are 163 who may never testify, but still serve as evidence, that spitting in the face of a dragon is a poor idea.

We do not know how Meereen was ruled exactly before Dany. We can guess that Meereen should have some sort of council like majority of the other trading cities. In a council, it may be possible that some people might have voted against the crucifixion of 163 children, be it for humanitarian purposes (less likely) or practical reasons (more likely - given that Dany already defeated two cities before coming to Meereen; she had dragons of which the Ghiscari very much fear - therefore, one should not provoke the dragon; the sellswords cannot be trusted against dragons and real Unsullied; city walls might not be enough to defend the city; it may kill any chance to buy-off Dany etc.).

The crucifixion of 163 Great Masters for the 163 crucified children cannot be called justice both in our world and in the text. If you look for how justice is supposed to be done within the text, just re-read how the Ned handled the situation with Gregor and how he rejected Loras from participating in the task force.

ETA: If we are talking about guilt-by-association, then Dany is a major hypocrite because she is guilty of the things Drogo did, especially the sack of MMD's village which was to support the invasion of Westeros as requested by Dany.

You keep believing that without any evidence to back it up. The books I'm reading paints a completely different picture and supports the idea all of the slavers were complicit.

Have fun with your books.

[Mithras]

I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father.

The funny thing about this quote is that Dany has no idea why the people of KL smiled to her mad father and what they did/said at his back.

Besides, such wishes are dangerous in ASOIAF.

Quentyn did not want to die at all. I want to go back to Yronwood and kiss both of your sisters, marry Gwyneth Yronwood, watch her flower into beauty, have a child by her. I want to ride in tourneys, hawk and hunt, visit with my mother in Norvos, read some of those books my father sends me. I want Cletus and Will and Maester Kedry to be alive again.

I do not want to burn.

[Mithras]

About the Martell sigil;

Pod recognized it at first sight but Tyrion was unimpressed and said that even his horse would know that. Cat knew all the banners sworn to Tullies and most of the ones sworn to Arryns. The Martell sigil is extremely important, especially for a Targaryen. Dorne is supposedly the most staunch Targaryen supporter after they married the dragons. What happened to Elia and her children should inflame it even more. But Dany does not know the sigil of her most probable ally in Westeros. This cannot be just tied to Dany's ignorance and overlooked. It is a matter of lack of foresight. Dany intends to go and conquer Westeros, so learning the basics about her possible allies should be everyday's work.

[David Selig]

About the Martell sigil;

Pod recognized it at first sight but Tyrion was unimpressed and said that even his horse would know that. Cat knew all the banners sworn to Tullies and most of the ones sworn to Arryns. The Martell sigil is extremely important, especially for a Targaryen.

It's not. It's a freaking picture with very limited usefulness. The fetishism with which the Westerosi treat their sigils is absurd.

[Nictarion]

It's not. It's a freaking picture with very limited usefulness. The fetishism with which the Westerosi treat their sigils is absurd.

Which Illyrio points out in the books.

[Mithras]

I think she will - or would, rather - be a good queen, and it's not because I want to think that. Here are some of the reasons:

(1) She is extremely intelligent.

(2) She means well and has good intentions for the realm. She doesn't just want to rule, she wants to rule well. This is an extremely important factor and differentiates her dramatically from some of the contenders.

(3) She cares about the smallfolk more than any other contender. If you think that's irrelevant, than you and I have fundamentally different ideas about what it means to be a "good" queen.

(4) She is a charismatic leader, with an intuitive ability to win her followers' allegiance. As a general rule, her followers aren't just retainers, they are completely devoted to her and willing to sacrifice for her cause. No other contender can say that to anywhere near the same degree.

(5) She is very introspective, and is constantly evaluating her actions to note what worked and what did not. This combines well with factor (1). Since she is also very young and inexperienced, she should be expected to become much better at what she does at a pretty decent pace.

(6) Although she is inexperienced, she is rapidly rectifying that problem. By tackling the extremely complex problems she is currently tackling at such a young age, she has a chance to become an extremely experienced and veteran leader by the time she is 25 or 30, i.e., while she is still younger than any of the other contenders.

(7) Her accomplishments are pretty amazing. It is beyond dispute that, if you graphed power on an x/y chart, nobody else would have a power growth line nearly as steep as Dany's, and she's just 16 years old. Chattel/wife -> beloved wife/respected advisor -> dragon mom -> khaleesi of her own khalasar who she had to lead through the wilderness with little supplies -> Queen of 1 -> 2 -> 3 cities. Each promotion she earned on her own, or at least through her own plan and leadership. All this marks her as playing a heroic role in the story, and for that reason she is likely to either continue to be successful or to crash spectacularly. Becoming a great and powerful leader and then just kind of Peter Principle-ing out into mediocrity doesn't seem to fit into that dramatic arc.

I'm much more worried about her dying than becoming a poor or mediocre leader. I think she's destined for greatness if she survives.

(1) The only people I find extremely intelligent in the series are Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle (yes), Aemon, Luwin (in fact let us stop with the maesters here), Missandei, Rodrik Harlaw, and Tyrion.

I think Dany is better described as a "resourceful conqueror" instead of extremely intelligent, given her military campaigns in SB. But the world is big, not everywhere is SB, there are more wars ahead and Robb was much more resourceful than Dany.

(2) It is unfair to claim that none of the other claimants share these thoughts. They all mean well and they all want to rule well. However, the specs of a good rule are different for different claimants.

(4) Though I don't like Stannis at all, his followers are as fierce/loyal as Dany's. And unlike Dany, Stannis suffered a major defeat and still have followers. The ironborn follow Euron's lead very well and they are the most loyal subjects as long as Euron's victories come.

(5) Can you be more specific? Because even Cersei acts introspective occasionally.

(6) Assuming that she survives that long, or Westeros does not get burned for learning new lessons.

(7) I go with crashing spectacularly.

[Mithras]

It's not. It's a freaking picture with very limited usefulness. The fetishism with which the Westerosi treat their sigils is absurd.

Which Illyrio points out in the books.

Dany means to rule the Westerosi (something Illyrio is not) and therefore, she should better get used to that fetishism. In fact, Targaryens and their dragons are the most extreme cases of such fetishism in Westeros.

[Ser Greg of House House]

It's not. It's a freaking picture with very limited usefulness. The fetishism with which the Westerosi treat their sigils is absurd.

Oh god. It's one thing to say that some westerosi take their sigils too seriously. Which we know is at least half bs, btw, since westerosi sigils are much more meaningul than their real life counterparts. It's a magical world. Hell, all this generation of Starks can mind-control direwolves... Anyway it's just a jape. Besides crazy Targs, what other westerosi nobles are pretending to be animals?

But even if they were really just meaningless symbols, they're obviously important in their society. It's not about the sigil itself. The fact that Dany doesn't know the Martell's sigil is very clearly put there to show how clueless she is about Westeros.

I'm not saying it is impossible to overcome that. But the fact that she is a stranger to the land she calls home and wants to rule will play a role in her future.