Is Dany too idealistic to be a great queen/leader?

[Pod The Impaler]

My point was that it hardly made her day, everyone has done something brutal, Dany is hardly innocent. There are a hundred and sixty-three people and a MMD to testify to that. (Or rather they can't testify.)

None of those 163 were innocent.

The 163 children they crucified were innocent, those nailed up to mock Dany and her compassion. They are 163 who may never testify, but still serve as evidence, that spitting in the face of a dragon is a poor idea.

[The Dragons Hand]

Yes, it even has a name - Melisandre.

:owned: :agree:

[The Dragons Hand]

None of those 163 were innocent.

The 163 children they crucified were innocent, those nailed up to mock Dany and her compassion. They are 163 who may never testify, but still serve as evidence, that spitting in the face of a dragon is a poor idea.

Can I just say how the bolded bit is so well worded that if Viserys said it I'd be immediately sympathetic to him?

But yes, you are correct and I agree. I was simply trying to demonstrate I'm capable of talking about Dany's less-than-perfect actions without defending her, even when there is a good defence.

Having written that down it just feels like I was scratching my own ego. Nice. :ack:

[JonSnow4President]

None of those 163 were innocent.

The 163 children they crucified were innocent, those nailed up to mock Dany and her compassion. They are 163 who may never testify, but still serve as evidence, that spitting in the face of a dragon is a poor idea.

Dany believes that, but it doesn't make it true.. If you think there that no one that was innocent of crucifying children was crucified, you are basically saying Martin has created an entire city of mustache twirling villains.

[RoamingRonin]

Dany believes that, but it doesn't make it true.. If you think there that no one that was innocent of crucifying children was crucified, you are basically saying Martin has created mustache twirling villains.

Welcome to Slaver's Bay. You look weary from travel. Would you like a young girl to please you with her tongue? Or perhaps a little perfumed boy? Afterwards, come enjoy the fighting pits. In addition to our usual entertainment, we will have a group of 10 five year olds armed with spoons going against an armored bear. Surely to be the highlight of your day.

[JonSnow4President]

Welcome to Slaver's Bay. You look weary from travel. Would you like a young girl to please you with her tongue? Or perhaps a little perfumed boy? Afterwards, come enjoy the fighting pits. In addition to our usual entertainment, we will have a group of 10 five year olds armed with spoons going against an armored bear. Surely to be the highlight of your day.

Point being, if you let the class of people who supposedly made the decision choose among them which 163 will be executed, the ones in power, the ones who made the decision before and aren't guilty by association, are going to make sure they stay safe. It's a child's view that assumes that all of however many of the class were all complicit in the decision, or it's a child's view that the 163 most guilty are actually going to be punished, rather than a lot of scapegoats.

[Night's_King]

Idealistic? No.

But childish, rash and selfish? Yes.

She will never be a good queen.

[David Selig]

Dany believes that, but it doesn't make it true.. If you think there that no one that was innocent of crucifying children was crucified, you are basically saying Martin has created an entire city of mustache twirling villains.

Well, he certainly did exactly that. They even kill puppies often. How more blatant do you need it to be?

[Mithras]

Maybe I phrased my question poorly. I feel Dany is idealistic in how she seems to feel she can make tough decisions based on her morals and feel things will be fine if she made the choice that sits well with her on a moral level. She thinks slavery is wrong, so she feels she can end slavery in Astapor, a city with a slave-driven economy, and things will be fine. People will love her, the city will be better

She is morally opposed to fighting pits, so she thinks by following her moral compass, she can git rid of them, and things will work out

It's for these reasons and others I described her as idealistic. I think the concept of being idealistic can be both good and bad, sort of how I feel about Dany.

I think those two examples are more like delusions than ideals as Ser Greg mentioned.

[RoamingRonin]

Point being, if you let the class of people who supposedly made the decision choose among them which 163 will be executed, the ones in power, the ones who made the decision before and aren't guilty by association, are going to make sure they stay safe. It's a child's view that assumes that all of however many of the class were all complicit in the decision, or it's a child's view that the 163 most guilty are actually going to be punished, rather than a lot of scapegoats.

You keep believing that without any evidence to back it up. The books I'm reading paints a completely different picture and supports the idea all of the slavers were complicit.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Well, he certainly did exactly that. They even kill puppies often. How more blatant do you need it to be?

I find it funny that you provided the puppy killings as proof they are mustache twirlers, instead of the baby killings.

[JonSnow4President]

You keep believing that without any evidence to back it up.

So I'm the one who needs evidence that the ENTIRE RULING CLASS of a city all agreed on what to do?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nature

And please tell, what is the evidence saying they all did agree? If I'm the kettle, you are most certainly the pot.

[Night's_King]

You keep believing that without any evidence to back it up. The books I'm reading paints a completely different picture and supports the idea all of the slavers were complicit.

Remember that we are in Danys head and all we see, we see through her eyes. So of course all of those people were guilty.

But what if we had a meereenese POV?

[JoeyBanana]

I wouldn't call her too idealistic. More like too naive, uneducated and unexperienced. Most of which, considering her age and upbringing, isn't really surprising.

What's interesting to me is that by making the slavers moustache twirling villains, Dany may get the morality medal for conquering them first, but then also has the disadvantage of having to compromise and tolerate some of the twirlin'. It goes both ways. Oh what would i give for a Mereenese Tormund.

[Pod The Impaler]

Oh what would i give for a Mereenese Tormund.

Wouldn't that be Strong Belwas ?

(And adding the two of them together, an average member, har !)

[Tolsimir]

Yes, it even has a name - Melisandre.

The only thing lucky about Melisandre is that she thinks Stannis is AA reborn. The luck ends there. Melisandre knows what she is doing, she doesn't just kill Renly or Penrose by accident. Not to mention that Melisandre has the potential to completely backfire for Stannis.

Meanwhile Daenerys is like some chosen one from the matrix. Goes into a pyre with no knowledge whatsoever and comes out with dragons. Get's saved from three assassination attempts in the last moment. Essos is marching into a fortified city with 3 dragons instead of investing into the faceless men or some other highly competent guild. How convenient. Goes into the house of undying with no clue, gets saved by dragon who just so happens to start breathing fire.

[JoeyBanana]

But what if we had a meereenese POV?

We have three other POVs there, remember. Tyrion and Quentyn don't exactly make the Slaver's Bay people look sooo much better.

[JoeyBanana]

Wouldn't that be Strong Belwas ?

(And adding the two of them together, an average member, har !)

Hehe, yes he kind of is. But i was less referring to the jokes and more to someone who gives the reader a perspective of enemy culture X to empathize with/understand.

[Lord Reaver]

We have three other POVs there, remember. Tyrion and Quentyn don't exactly make the Slaver's Bay people look sooo much better.

Last I checked, neither of those qualified as "mereneese".

[RoamingRonin]

So I'm the one who needs evidence that the ENTIRE RULING CLASS of a city all agreed on what to do?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nature

And please tell, what is the evidence saying they all did agree? If I'm the kettle, you are most certainly the pot.

Really. Wikipedia? Not clicking that. Besides, these are characters in a book so spare me. What the author wants will happen regardless of human nature or whatever.

And as I said, there's more evidence to support my stance than there is for yours. You're arguing from a "this is common sense" standpoint. I'm arguing "Hey, look at the text" and the text shows the slavers don't give a fig about human life, not even children.

It's much more believable they all voted yes (or supported the decision) than it is to think some were innocent and the guilty railroaded the innocent.

Remember that we are in Danys head and all we see, we see through her eyes. So of course all of those people were guilty.

But what if we had a meereenese POV?

Do we need multiple POVs in King's Landing to know Cersei is a terrible ruler? No. We have multiple POVs that have come through Slaver's Bay and they all paint the same picture.

I don't get why we need a purely Meereenese POV to get a full picture. I feel like there are people (Dany haters) holding out for that one Meereenese guy that says, "I liked the city before..." just so they go SEEEEEEEE Meereen wasn't so bad after alllllllll!