The Lannisters aren't running out of gold

[Veltigar]

Thank you for the clarification. As for the gold shortage, I assume that will be brought up at some point this season, especially with Cercei dealing with the Iron Bank. I am skeptical, but I'll keep an open mind.

My pleasure. I kinda hope they'll forget about it on the show. It still baffles me that they went with a farfetched gold shortage. Like, they could have just made the debt much bigger than even the Lannister are able to pay (that is, if they wanted a simpler scenario than the book). I mean, it's not like that's unplausible, if you see how incompetent Joffrey and Robert were.

Even a competent King in peace time would need loads of cash to keep the realm going, but the ammount of money needed during a long war, after two (or three, if we take Aerys into account as well) shitty kings must be gigantic.

[FreeParking]

A strawman is an informal logical fallacy. I'll just quote the definition from wikipedia:

To give a practical example of this definition just read the post to which I responded and then read my first post. The ignoramus who committed the fallacy goes on a long rant about a totally unrelated issue, as if I claimed that GRRM was in some way perfect (which he isn't btw, the LF thing is a total plothole. One that, if memory serves, has been kept by the show), instead of actually trying to refute the claim that I actually made.

Namely, the fact that the Lannister gold mines running dry on the show is a completely idiotic development. Not that it's feasible to refute that of course, with such a large chunck of Westerland economy running on the gold trade, it is impossible to keep such a development a secret for three whole years.

Your names for me are touching, but I won't deny the strawman. What do we know of the Westerlands' economy that so much of it relies upon gold? I don't even remember Jaime remarking on things such as crops, minerals, fishing, and so on. I don't think we have even been to the Westerlands.

My pleasure. I kinda hope they'll forget about it on the show. It still baffles me that they went with a farfetched gold shortage. Like, they could have just made the debt much bigger than even the Lannister are able to pay (that is, if they wanted a simpler scenario than the book). I mean, it's not like that's unplausible, if you see how incompetent Joffrey and Robert were.

Even a competent King in peace time would need loads of cash to keep the realm going, but the ammount of money needed during a long war, after two (or three, if we take Aerys into account as well) shitty kings must be gigantic.

Are we given any information regarding debt during the Mad King's reign? I don't recall.

[The Wolves]

Are we given any information regarding debt during the Mad King's reign? I don't recall.

We weren't but when Robert became king Aerys had left his chests overflowing with gold.

[Tywin Manderly]

Are we given any information regarding debt during the Mad King's reign? I don't recall.

Ned was stunned. "Are you claiming that the Crown is three million gold pieces in debt?"

"The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it, but we have also borrowed from Lord Tyrell, the Iron Bank of Braavos, and several Tyroshi trading cartels. Of late I've had to turn to the Faith. The High Septon haggles worse than a Dornish fishmonger."

Ned was aghast. "Aerys Targaryen left a treasury flowing with gold. How could you let this happen?"

[FreeParking]

We weren't but when Robert became king Aerys had left his chests overflowing with gold.

Hmm, I do seem to recall something like that. But how would Robert have squandered it all? Tourneys are not cheap but continent-wide expensive? Seems unlikely. I am more inclined to thing that George made the Westros economy important when it became important narratively speaking. Cersei, the crazy lady, being super concerned about the debt, when previously the Lannisters were more than willing to ignore it is something I have trouble wrapping my head around.

That was after we had over a decade of Robert's rule, so that doesn't mean much.

[Drth Fel]

I wonder if they sometimes find other, yet undiscovered/unknown metals, throw them away and continue digging for gold

The miners are using this strange metal that gives off an eerie green glow to light the mines. They couldn't find any othe use for it since it was so dense and heavy. Curiously, the miners that handled it frequently all seemed to get sick shortly thereafter. The maesters that came to treat the sick miners and Lannister foremen seemed confused by the sickness but oddly wanted to take any unused samples with them. Curiously, the maesters stored the samples in boxes made out of lead. Maybe the maesters need to make some nightlights?

[Tywin Manderly]

Hmm, I do seem to recall something like that. But how would Robert have squandered it all? Tourneys are not cheap but continent-wide expensive? Seems unlikely. I am more inclined to thing that George made the Westros economy important when it became important narratively speaking. Cersei, the crazy lady, being super concerned about the debt, when previously the Lannisters were more than willing to ignore it is something I have trouble wrapping my head around.

Littlefinger systematically robbed the treasury and lined his pockets with the proceeds.

That was after we had over a decade of Robert's rule, so that doesn't mean much.

The third sentence of the quote is about the state of the treasury at the beginning of Robert's Reign.

[Gneisenau]

I could be wrong, but isn't Cersei keeping Lannister finances and Crown finances strictly separate ?

[Tywin Manderly]

I could be wrong, but isn't Cersei keeping Lannister finances and Crown finances strictly separate ?

Indeed. And very much to her own detriment. Even Kevan considered to use Lannister gold to pay off (part of) the Crown Debt.

[Dragon in the North]

My pleasure. I kinda hope they'll forget about it on the show. It still baffles me that they went with a farfetched gold shortage. Like, they could have just made the debt much bigger than even the Lannister are able to pay (that is, if they wanted a simpler scenario than the book). I mean, it's not like that's unplausible, if you see how incompetent Joffrey and Robert were.

Even a competent King in peace time would need loads of cash to keep the realm going, but the ammount of money needed during a long war, after two (or three, if we take Aerys into account as well) shitty kings must be gigantic.

The only explanation I could think of is that they're gearing towards a Tyrell take over.

[DavosSeaworthy]

Once again the show fucks up and makes things different for a reason that could be explained better or differently.

[fuem]

In A DwD Kevain says he might have to pay the debt out with Lion gold that doesn't sound like there are running short

[Eat My Steel]

Hmm, I do seem to recall something like that. But how would Robert have squandered it all? Tourneys are not cheap but continent-wide expensive? Seems unlikely. I am more inclined to thing that George made the Westros economy important when it became important narratively speaking. Cersei, the crazy lady, being super concerned about the debt, when previously the Lannisters were more than willing to ignore it is something I have trouble wrapping my head around.

That was after we had over a decade of Robert's rule, so that doesn't mean much.

The tourney for the Hand (that Ned hated to be associated with) had a winner's purse that was forty thousand gold dragons for the melee and the joust each. That doesn't count expense for the feasts, pavillions, security (gold cloaks) etc. Also, how much would it cost to take half the court to Winterfell at the beginning of the books. These costs are from like a month's worth of time. Robert has been king for like 15 years, putting down Greyjoy's rebellion in the process. How many other tourneys, feasts, whores, and trips had he paid for in that time span?

[Eat My Steel]

In A DwD Kevain says he might have to pay the debt out with Lion gold that doesn't sound like there are running short

Kevan may have sent the envoy in "Mercy" before he was killed...

[Elessar]

I think it's entirely plausible that there's still a shit-ton of gold there. It's not like they're using modern technology to mine the shit. Pickaxes, buckets and rope, by torchlight...

This was one of the indications that the show was beginning to "forge the golden dwarf" or "jump the shark" as it were.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

When were Kevan and Daven last in Casterly Rock? Not since Tywin's death at least, as they've been too busy ending sieges and acting as regent. Before Tywin's death would be moot, since the conspiracy rests on Tywin exhausting the mines and keeping it secret for family reputation, building family reputation being a core part of Tywin's character. Damion Lannister is castellan of Casterly Rock as named by Cersei, but we haven't really heard much from or about him. In fact, we haven't heard much about Casterly Rock, which is what drives this theory in the first place.

Kevan led Tywin's funeral procession to the Rock, and Daven was in the Rock until Kevan refused to be Hand, early in AFFC. They were both in the Rock after Tywin's death. There is no reason Kevan would not mention the gold being depleted in his epilogue, and no reason Daven would not tell Jaime.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Speaking with a bit of realism, yes, those mines probably should have been already been completely ran out.

But they aren't. In book universe, is needed to keep the Lannisters rich. For once, never heard of the phrase "he was so poor that everything he had is money?". Well, that. And they need to keep their power and status (specially Cersei) until they stop being the main antagonists. The money is the way for her to keep doing what she's doing. It's a needed device.

In the show, we know how D&D roll their dices. They won't want the Lannisters, fan favourites, being evil for the sake of being evil, or for power. In the same way Cersei wasn't just the evil Queen, but she suffered hard at Joffrey being out of control, despite her being the one who cut his leash. They needed a REASON to keep their power: they're getting desperate of losing their money, the source of their strength. Everything Tywin did and Cersei will do, it is now justified. :dunno:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Also, found:

(unlike what’s been said in the TV show) The mines haven’t emptied, and are considered the best in the world. Even in Asshai, they ask about Casterly Rock, which they believe to be a ‘palace of gold’.

http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/

[Dragon in the North]

Speaking with a bit of realism, yes, those mines probably should have been already been completely ran out.

But they aren't. In book universe, is needed to keep the Lannisters rich. For once, never heard of the phrase "he was so poor that everything he had is money?". Well, that. And they need to keep their power and status (specially Cersei) until they stop being the main antagonists. The money is the way for her to keep doing what she's doing. It's a needed device.

In the show, we know how D&D roll their dices. They won't want the Lannisters, fan favourites, being evil for the sake of being evil, or for power. In the same way Cersei wasn't just the evil Queen, but she suffered hard at Joffrey being out of control, despite her being the one who cut his leash. They needed a REASON to keep their power: they're getting desperate of losing their money, the source of their strength. Everything Tywin did and Cersei will do, it is now justified. :dunno:

You mean, because the Lannisters are now poor, they're excused from everything they've ever done?

[Stannis's birthright]

Excuses excuses ... D&D loves giving excuses