Ramsay Gimp Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 The idea that it's "normal" to be driven to violence on this scale from someone, even a relative, "stealing" your girlfriend is absurd. It would drive "a huge portion" to be very upset and probably angry, but there is no way you can characterize a shooting like this as a normal, healthy reaction. Lol, who's claiming it was a normal and healthy reaction? Nice job rebutting that strawman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Um, I can't remember hearing of any wide spread reports of domestic violence and/or assault/homicides caused by gay and lesbian couples breaking up. Now, maybe the sample size is small enough that you wouldn't expect a material number, or maybe it is occurring and isn't reported.But if the above is correct, wouldn't that imply this kind of violence is due to culture/misogyny since it only appears to occur with a male/female dynamic?If those incidents are occurring, then Shryke I think there is an argument it's not automatically culture/misogyny that's causing it (although it could be, as there most certainly could be feed through of the culture into gay/lesbian relationships). I don't know about killing people but my understanding is domestic violence among homosexual couples is pretty much the same as it is among heterosexual ones. Will have to see if I can find a cite on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Sure didn't take long for this to become another culture war/oppression olympics thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold Crashing Waves Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Terrible. What's fucked up is that this sort of thing isn't even surprising anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Dictator Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 bah. looks like you called it shrike and tp. fuck.http://heavy.com/news/2014/10/rip-zoe-galasso-jaylen-fryberg-victim-dead-dies/short version the girl he had a crush on and was never in a relationship with was dating his cousin. both of them were specifically the targets and the girl he had the crush on was the one who died at the scene.a second girl also just passed away. name of Gia soriano I think.yeah now I have zero sympathy stupid little shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 bah. looks like you called it shrike and tp. fuck. http://heavy.com/news/2014/10/rip-zoe-galasso-jaylen-fryberg-victim-dead-dies/ short version the girl he had a crush on and was never in a relationship with was dating his cousin. both of them were specifically the targets and the girl he had the crush on was the one who died at the scene. a second girl also just passed away. name of Gia soriano I think. yeah now I have zero sympathy stupid little shit. Not sure how trust-worthy that site is? I am not familiar with it. CNN at least has none of those details as of yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Not sure how trust-worthy that site is? I am not familiar with it. CNN at least has none of those details as of yet. Well, the AP now has these charming details. Investigators say that a gunman responsible for a shooting at a Washington state high school on Friday invited his victims to lunch by text message. Snohomish County Sheriff Ty Trenary told a news conference Monday the five students were all at a lunch table when they were shot by 15-year-old Jaylen Fryberg. Trenary also confirmed that the .40-caliber handgun used in the shooting had been legally purchased by one of Fryberg's relatives. It remains unclear how Fryberg obtained the weapon. The sheriff said investigators continue combing through a massive amount of text messages, phone records and social media posts as they search for an explanation for the shooting - but he also says they may never find one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Dictator Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I read it several other places as well that link was just the most concise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraculaAD1972 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Terrible. What's fucked up is that this sort of thing isn't even surprising anymore. The late great Roger Ebert had something interesting to say about these mass shootings. He said we should stop placing these stories on the front page news, basically he blamed the media. These young men see how it makes the news and decide to become famous for fifteen minutes. It makes them feel important and powerful. They get to go down in a blaze of glory and make the world share their pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 The late great Roger Ebert had something interesting to say about these mass shootings. He said we should stop placing these stories on the front page news, basically he blamed the media. These young men see how it makes the news and decide to become famous for fifteen minutes. It makes them feel important and powerful. They get to go down in a blaze of glory and make the world share their pain. I've been saying the same thing for a long time. Obviously the media has to cover the story, but it'd be nice to see a concerted effort to bury details about the shooter. Let these fucking losers die in obscurity and I'll bet it happens less. The media whips themselves and everyone else into a frenzy and we're all just dying to know all the horrible details and particularly what motivated these troubled young men to do something that is unthinkable to the rest of us. The whole thing becomes a side show and since most people have no connection whatsoever to the crime they recognize it as horrible, and are saddened by it, but nonetheless consume the story in the same way that we consume any other compelling form of entertainment. I still remember the names of the Columbine shooters 15 years later but I couldn't tell you a damn thing about a single one of the victims. And in that light, the murderers did achieve exactly what they wanted - which was infamy. That is what all of these guys want, to a degree. They want everyone to know that this is what happens when you fuck with ME, or underestimate ME. Me, me, me. Whether whatever injustices they've endured are real or imagined, that is what they want. Attention and posthumous validation that they were a big, dangerous man after all. I think that element that has to be taken away to begin to curb these incidents and the media does bear some responsibility for that. It's not their fault that these things happen, but the way these stories are covered, with everyone wanting to know every last detail about the shooter and WHY they did this - well you're giving that motherfucker exactly what he wanted. Stop doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ants Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 This never gets old - unfortunately.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8rMYyegT5Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprincethatwasntpromised Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Sure didn't take long for this to become another culture war/oppression olympics thread They all regress to the same liberal talking points around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 The details of this shooting paint a picture that's different from the shooting at Colombine. This is a revenge shooting of an imaginary betrayal (the link says that the main female victim wasn't actually dating Fryberg and he simply had a crush on her), which is differnt from the Columbine-type shooting of an angry teenager wanting to see the world burn. So I would be very cautious drawing inferences and cross references for that. I think it's indeed more aptly described as a jealous, emotionally imbalanced boy taking out his anger over a failed romantics overture in the most brutal way. We do see examples of this amongst adults all the time, but it's the more shocking when it happened in young kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Yeah, I withdraw any sympathy I had at the beginning. I'd be wise to wait for details the next time this happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Of course it's a neutral, if both people are of the same gender. Nope. This is a big mistake. You are wrong right from the start here. Let's make this simple: gay people are not raised differently from straight people. Because we don't know that people are gay till they are quite developed. Gay men are immersed in the exact same cultural conditioning that straight men are. Like, your argument here where you try to paint gay men as somehow immune from culture is just fundamentally flawed and reveals a huge hole in your own thinking on this issue. Your main problem, going through this post, seems to be that you are assuming gay men are somehow immune from patriarchal cultural conditioning and also not noting that misogyny is a consequence of larger cultural forces not confined only to women, but also to men and male expectations of behaviour and entitlement. And lo and behold, what do we have but more evidence that seems to point to this being about a man who felt that he owned this women because he wanted her and so lashed out violently against her and those he felt stole his rightly given property from him. Which, as I keep mentioning, is an INCREDIBLY common form of violence directed towards women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprincethatwasntpromised Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Nope. This is a big mistake. You are wrong right from the start here. Let's make this simple: gay people are not raised differently from straight people. Because we don't know that people are gay till they are quite developed. Gay men are immersed in the exact same cultural conditioning that straight men are. Like, your argument here where you try to paint gay men as somehow immune from culture is just fundamentally flawed and reveals a huge hole in your own thinking on this issue. Your main problem, going through this post, seems to be that you are assuming gay men are somehow immune from patriarchal cultural conditioning and also not noting that misogyny is a consequence of larger cultural forces not confined only to women, but also to men and male expectations of behaviour and entitlement. And lo and behold, what do we have but more evidence that seems to point to this being about a man who felt that he owned this women because he wanted her and so lashed out violently against her and those he felt stole his rightly given property from him. Which, as I keep mentioning, is an INCREDIBLY common form of violence directed towards women.No way. (Broad) Hatred of women and (specifically) hating an individual for a perceived wrong is not the same. Why do some of you always have to inject these PC narratives? This kid was apparently evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerenthaClone Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 No way. (Broad) Hatred of women and (specifically) hating an individual for a perceived wrong is not the same. Why do some of you always have to inject these PC narratives? This kid was apparently evil Oh good, we can definitely try to use that to help prevent things like this from happening again. Step one: don't have evil people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Ya i agree with TP, v hesitant in treating all school shooters as the same wanting to get media attention, i don't agree with that - and why are a few of you SO opposed to the possibility that misogyny might play a part in this. You do realise that when someone brings up misogyny they're not shouting I HATE MEN MEN ARE BAD ALL MEN HATE WOMEN LOOK HOW MEN ARE RUINING THE WORLD so i just don't understand the bitter and childish aversion to 'political correctness' (which doesnt even make sense in this context) this little shit killed people bcus he couldnt deal with his cousin dating a girl he had a crush on. If you don't think there's maybe even a possibility that misogyny however small or pernicious played a part in this or similar domestic violence cases i dont know what the hell to say to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Again, if men behave this way towards men, women towards women, and women towards men, how is this behaviour linked to mysogyny? Because misogyny is not narrowly defined as a man's hateful actions or views against a woman. Misogyny, in the gender relation context and in feminism, does include that, but it also encompasses cultural views on gender relationships. Your query is easily tackled by simply answering this question: are there women who support misogynistic practices and who hold misogynistic ideas? If the answer is yes, then that'd mean, according to your logic, that there's no such thing as misogyny, no? If you'd like, we can use the term "sexism" instead so that it's less gender-specific. It is also worth noting that just because the outcomes are the same, it doesn't follow that the genesis of those actions are the same. A man commiting violent acts against a girlfriend/wife whom he perceived to have wronged him through infidelity and a man doing the same against a male lover don't have to have the same motivations. It is logically consistent to accept that the two might have two different sets of reasons, each informed by different social cues, even though the outcomes are similar. For instance, two people can distrust the same car sales person, but person A comes to the distrust because s/he has had a friend being cheated on a car deal, whereas person B comes to the distrust because s/he sees that the salesperson is a woman and assumes that women just don't know about cars. In both cases, there is distrust, but only in one case is there an element of sexism. Finally, having seen the dynamics of some of the cases of domestic violence amongst same-sex couples, there are definite elements of sexism against woment at play in some of the cases, even amongst male-male couples, because of the language used and the cultural expectations imposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezBarbie24 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 As a person from the same tribe all I can say is he planned to get back at his ex girlfriend (who went to a different school in a different city) by shooting his friends and family members... he sent his Ex a picture of a gun between his legs under his desk in a message stating (through text) something along the lines of call or text before I do this... I can not say exactly what the message said so Google it.. but within 10 mins he shot his friends, a fellow Tribal member, and 2 of his cousins (both Tribal)... The "News" got everything upside down as usual... Google it today and you "may" get closer to the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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