U.S. High School Shooting near Seattle, Washington

[Pecan]

Rather than armed guards and security checkpoints in every school, I think it would be more effective to beef up counseling and mental health services, especially for grades 7-12. There's just so much shit going through kids' heads at those ages.

[Serious Callers Only]

Will the tag developing story be removed from the thread eventually, once it's not developing? My OCD is triggering.

[Goddess Dictator]

What exactly qualifies it as "misogynistic violence"..? you know he shot as many guys as he did girls right? And from his Twitter he seems just as angry at his cousin who 'betrayed' him too.

thank you exactly. in fact his two cousins seem to have been the focus of the attack both are in critical condition. I think the fact that the one girl died and his cousins didn't is simply chance not intent. I do not think this was just OMG you bitch how dare you not date me.

man why am I even in this thread I have nothing to add. I seem to be obsessed with this shooting for some reason. maybe I'm using it to distract myself. sorry.

[AverageGuy]

Rather than armed guards and security checkpoints in every school, I think it would be more effective to beef up counseling and mental health services, especially for grades 7-12. There's just so much shit going through kids' heads at those ages.

It couldn't hurt, but TBH by 7th grade I'd already internalized that going to school staff for help never actually did anything.

[TerraPrime]

That's a most cursory reading of what misogyny means. Just because he shot at guys as well as at girl(s) it doesn't mean that the decision to kill people didn't originate from a point of sexism. If I blame a man for stealing my girlfriend, it is a form of sexism wherein I am treating my girlfriend as something that can be stolen, like my car or my cell phone. It is, fundamentally, seeing our romantic partners as our possessions, our owned properties, and our off-limit-to-others exclusive toys. Both men and women are guilty of this, but when men do it, it is actually reinforced by history, and it's more difficult to disentangle that taoxic manifestation of romance from the normative notion of masculinity where one component is to be in control of their romantic relationship.

It is, of course, beyond unreasonable to expect that a 9th grader might have this kind of insight to rise above the type of sexism that infects many (most?) adults, but it doesn't make the observation that there's an element of sexism in his motivation any less valid.

[Pecan]

It couldn't hurt, but TBH by 7th grade I'd already internalized that going to school staff for help never actually did anything.

Well yeah, that's part of the problem that needs to be addressed.

[Goddess Dictator]

it's perfectly possible there was sexism involved but we have no way of knowing at this time I think.

if there is I'll be farrrrrrrrr less understanding.

[Shryke]

What exactly qualifies it as "misogynistic violence"..? you know he shot as many guys as he did girls right? And from his Twitter he seems just as angry at his cousin who 'betrayed' him too.

The fact that he's angry and apparently performed these murders because his girlfriend broke up with him. Which results from some combination of homicidal anger at her for daring to leave him or homicidal anger over someone "stealing her" which implies she is his possession and has no right to have a say in who she dates.

Both are absolutely steeped in misogyny. Which is why, as I said before, that killing your ex and her family/new boyfriend/etc is an INCREDIBLY common form of domestic abuse/violence directed at women.

Like, we literally just had at least one (maybe 2) threads on this very subject talking about Ray Rice and the whole "Why didn't she just leave him?" question. And one of the main answers to the question of why women don't leave domestic abuse situations in that thread (and generally) was "because she's afraid she'll be hurt/killed if she does".

And lo and behold, we seem to have a perfect example of that situation RIGHT HERE. This isn't complicated.

The thread:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117203-would-you-marry-this-person/

[Shryke]

thank you exactly. in fact his two cousins seem to have been the focus of the attack both are in critical condition. I think the fact that the one girl died and his cousins didn't is simply chance not intent. I do not think this was just OMG you bitch how dare you not date me.

man why am I even in this thread I have nothing to add. I seem to be obsessed with this shooting for some reason. maybe I'm using it to distract myself. sorry.

But everything we've heard so far says this was a "OMG you bitch how dare you not date me" shooting. It's just directed at the man who "stole her". Which doesn't actually change anything.

[Goddess Dictator]

I think you're right in general but just bear with me a moment. think back to the very first time you got your heart broken. like really broken.

for me I was incredibly angry and sad and distressed and ANGRY if i didn't make that clear not bc how dare she leave me but bc she promised to be there for me she promised she loved me she promised she wouldn't leave she promised she wouldn't cheat and she promised we would spend our lives together. and I whole heartedly believed her bc I hadn't been through this shit before so I didn't know that people regularly say this kind of thing and then big fat don't do it. she broke everyone of those promises. and that is what made me so angry.

not how dare you but damnit you promised and when you say shit it should damn well mean something and that first lesson that love isn't enough and sometimes shit changes and sometimes people lie and sometimes they aren't who you thought they were is a fucking bitter ass pill to swallow. because frankly it sucks that the world works that way and I had a really really hard time accepting that it DID work that way.

not saying that's what happened here just saying it's a possibility.

[James Arryn]

Wait.

So if a gay man felt betrayed and shot people, what prejudice is that? Or do gay people not use terms like 'cheat' and 'steal' and 'betray', and if they do, are they somehow abnormal? Or is it common to do that irrespective of gender?

(Edit: to be clear, not singling out homosexuals. I'm talking about behavioural patterns being ascribed to gender which are present when gender is not a determinant, hence homosexuality is a relevant base/neutral.)

Not every issue that involves people of different genders is actually about gender. Teens in particular attach/infuse themselves into all kinds of things that aren't actually about them, and it doesn't need prescribed gender patterns to make it so or wrong or define why it's wrong. Adolescents test off the board for ego-centricity in part because they feel increasingly defined as an individual rather than an extension of another person/people, and so they get proactive with their un-isolation in ways that aren't healthy, especially in a collective of other people doing the same thing.

When it comes to assumptions of specific prejudices, I don't think 'shoot first, ask questions later' is helpful, to be incredibly clumsy with an ill-timed metaphor.

But I can say that IF you are human and IF you expect to see X, the odds are extraordinarily higher that you WILL see it than if you have no specific expectation. Pretty much every study on perspective proves this to be true. If I think I get more red lights than most people, I will register red lights/miss non-red lights more than most people. That's just how our mechanism works. Expectations lead perceptions more than the other way around once you're past...eh, can't remember the age, but anyways, pretty young. Ironically this very process is at the root at a lot of the identified prejudices active in society.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Wait.

So if a gay man felt betrayed and shot people, what prejudice is that? Or do gay people not use terms like 'cheat' and 'steal' and 'betray', and if they do, are they somehow abnormal? Or is it common to do that irrespective of gender?

(Edit: to be clear, not singling out homosexuals. I'm talking about behavioural patterns being ascribed to gender which are present when gender is not a determinant, hence homosexuality is a relevant base/neutral.)

Not every issue that involves people of different genders is actually about gender. Teens in particular attach/infuse themselves into all kinds of things that aren't actually about them, and it doesn't need prescribed gender patterns to make it so or wrong or define why it's wrong. Adolescents test off the board for ego-centricity in part because they feel increasingly defined as an individual rather than an extension of another person/people, and so they get proactive with their un-isolation in ways that aren't healthy, especially in a collective of other people doing the same thing.

When it comes to assumptions of specific prejudices, I don't think 'shoot first, ask questions later' is helpful, to be incredibly clumsy with an ill-timed metaphor.

But I can say that IF you are human and IF you expect to see X, the odds are extraordinarily higher that you WILL see it than if you have no specific expectation. Pretty much every study on perspective proves this to be true. If I think I get more red lights than most people, I will register red lights/miss non-red lights more than most people. That's just how our mechanism works. Expectations lead perceptions more than the other way around once you're past...eh, can't remember the age, but anyways, pretty young. Ironically this very process is at the root at a lot of the identified prejudices active in society.

:agree: Well said.

[Gears of the Beast]

The fact that he's angry and apparently performed these murders because his girlfriend broke up with him. Which results from some combination of homicidal anger at her for daring to leave him or homicidal anger over someone "stealing her" which implies she is his possession and has no right to have a say in who she dates.

How do you know? For one, he never said anything about "stealing" and appears to be angry because he feels betrayed by his cousin/friend. Being angry when your girlfriend leaves you for your friend/cousin isn't by itself (necessarily) a strange or misogynistic reaction and I don't know how you've reached that bizarrely specific evaluation of the factors that lead him to do what he did.

[Shryke]

Wait.

So if a gay man felt betrayed and shot people, what prejudice is that? Or do gay people not use terms like 'cheat' and 'steal' and 'betray', and if they do, are they somehow abnormal? Or is it common to do that irrespective of gender?

(Edit: to be clear, not singling out homosexuals. I'm talking about behavioural patterns being ascribed to gender which are present when gender is not a determinant, hence homosexuality is a relevant base/neutral.)

No, homosexuality is not a relevant neutral. Because the cultural factors that create patriarchy and misogyny are still present. And that's just the most surface of details.

Beyond that, of course, domestic violence goes the other way as well (ie - by a women against a man).

So nothing about your example here really makes sense as a rebuttal of the point.

Not every issue that involves people of different genders is actually about gender.

It is when it involves practices that are highly gendered.

[James Arryn]

No, homosexuality is not a relevant neutral. Because the cultural factors that create patriarchy and misogyny are still present. And that's just the most surface of details.

Of course it's a neutral, if both people are of the same gender. But if your premise is that any discussion involving 'cultural factors that create patriarchy and misogyny are present' is all that's necessary for misogyny to be assumed to be present irrespective of their complete irrelevance...say a shipwrecked crew of gay men on an island killing each other for 'stealing' each other's partners...then of course you're always going to determine it's present.

Beyond that, of course, domestic violence goes the other way as well (ie - by a women against a man).

Sure, though I don't see the relevance to my neutral. Both are the same gender. 'Stealing' etc. is language still commonly used. Hence gender is not required for it to exist, but rather human. The commonality is humanity. Human beings think that way, teens probably especially.

But let's pose you another...I'll call it hypothetical for now to see if your response remains consistent later...but suppose a study showed that women used the phrase 'stole my boyfriend' far more often than men used the phrase 'stole my girlfriend'...what then? Remember the proposed issue is the idea that misogyny is the basis for assuming ownership/property equivalence. But...again...if woman use that ownership/property equivalnce more often than men..let's even say FAR more often...then what happens to the premise then?

And let's go a step further. Let's 'suppose' women came up with a term that describes other women who violated their relationships that was used for generations...let's call it 'homewrecker' just for kicks...and that men had no commonly used term for men who violated their relationships, seemingly happy enough with the usual 'bastard' or w/e...and women used the term 'stole' in relation to their partners far more than men...what would these combined hypotheticals, (together with the proposition that same sex partnerships use the exact same phrases) suggest about the notion that murders of men and women angered over a betrayal of stealing a partner are clearly issues of misogyny?

So nothing about your example here really makes sense as a rebuttal of the point.

Well, obviously we see this very differently. I'm still blown away by the notion that the presence of 'cultural factors that create patriarchy no misogyny' are in and of themselves an indication that those are present and significant. For one thing, wow circular reasoning. X is evident because the factors which make X are present, which we know because X is evident. But moreover, what does that leave out? What in the modern world isn't, by your standards, in some way connected or exposed to cultural factors which create patriarchy and mysogyny? In other words, what can't automatically be ruled in by your criteria?

It is when it involves practices that are highly gendered.

What doesn't involve that in your view? Again, if men behave this way towards men, women towards women, and women towards men, how is this behaviour linked to mysogyny?

[Theda Baratheon]

Ugh. No sympathy here. Not for any school shooter. They're all murderous little shits. Yes, they may be mentally ill but that doesn't make you go out and fucking kill people. I was bullied for YEARS, I am and was im school very depressed and agitated and angry and terrified all the time for YEARS but did i ever attempt to fucking MURDER ANYONE??? UMM FUCK NO.

So many armchair psychologists come out after these events and people try to make the shooters seem sympathetic bcus they were young, bcus they were bullied, bcus they were mentally ill, bcus they were dumped. Fuck all that. You gotta be a bad, entitled person on top of some of this shit to go into your school with people youve grown up with carrying a loaded gun and fucking MURDER people. I repeat; no sympathy here. Every teenager has lots of FEELINGS some of us more than others. I am a VERY emphatic person for fucks sake ive cried before when ive accidentally stepped on a BUG, but i just have no sympathy or v v little for these people. Especially not in this case bcus he lost a girlfriend; give me a fucking break.

[Inigima]

The idea that it's "normal" to be driven to violence on this scale from someone, even a relative, "stealing" your girlfriend is absurd. It would drive "a huge portion" to be very upset and probably angry, but there is no way you can characterize a shooting like this as a normal, healthy reaction.

[Greywolf2375]

Unfortunately another one of the victims has passed away due to her injuries.

Marysville Teen passes

[ants]

Um, I can't remember hearing of any wide spread reports of domestic violence and/or assault/homicides caused by gay and lesbian couples breaking up. Now, maybe the sample size is small enough that you wouldn't expect a material number, or maybe it is occurring and isn't reported.

But if the above is correct, wouldn't that imply this kind of violence is due to culture/misogyny since it only appears to occur with a male/female dynamic?

If those incidents are occurring, then Shryke I think there is an argument it's not automatically culture/misogyny that's causing it (although it could be, as there most certainly could be feed through of the culture into gay/lesbian relationships).

[aceluby]

Um, I can't remember hearing of any wide spread reports of domestic violence and/or assault/homicides caused by gay and lesbian couples breaking up. Now, maybe the sample size is small enough that you wouldn't expect a material number, or maybe it is occurring and isn't reported.

But if the above is correct, wouldn't that imply this kind of violence is due to culture/misogyny since it only appears to occur with a male/female dynamic?

If those incidents are occurring, then Shryke I think there is an argument it's not automatically culture/misogyny that's causing it (although it could be, as there most certainly could be feed through of the culture into gay/lesbian relationships).

Are there widespread reports of this anywhere? Of course not, it's an extreme reaction to a very common feeling of rejection. Rejection that is a human attribute, and the reaction being horrid. It isn't culture that causes the feeling of rejection, and it sure as hell isn't misogyny that causes the feeling of rejection. It's just human experience.