Season 5 Casting, News and Speculation V 6 [show spoilers]

[Deadwood]

Tolkien was a genius at languages and the like. One can look at how long his great epic took, and how it changed so much to see how a world and the story changes, thanks to the publication of the early writings. Things added much later can be just as important and part of the 'core.'

[ADanceWithCats]

Tolkien? Who is Tolkien?

A man who finished his books. Who then finished his prequel-books. Who only then started to publish his wikis. While writing by hand.

I'm sorry, I don't particularly like LotR myself (it's a product of its times), but you don't get to diss a linguist who created one of the most influential books of a century just to have some exercise with his invented languages in my presence.

About Essos and Dany- I don't think its filler. Her journey through slavers bay is what is going to make her a suitable ruler. She has learnt a hell of a lot about herself and most importantly that she is capable of some great things even though she stumbles and fails along the way. Her mission through slaver's bay has had a massive impact.

Are you, uh, joking? The last scene in ADWD is her basically throwing all that character development away. It's 'nu-uh, I didn't manage to be naturally good at ruling, better stick to the burning and conquering part now, it's much easier'.

If it were what you're talking about, she'd go, 'OK, it's the first time I'm doing it, sure must be some bumps on the road, I don't think anybody'd be good at ruling without any practice, better learn from the experience, return to Meereen and try again'. Naah, it's all 'fire and blood, I can't look back'.

This was the one and only scene that made me genuinely angry at ADWD. Because it was obvious Martin was writing Dany this way because he had problems justifying why she wouldn't stay in Meereen instead of going to Westeros (that famous knot). At this point, I'm fully expecting book Dany to just drop Meereen like a broken toy and go for a new and shiny one (Westeros).

Now, I won't snark and say that she would be like her creator in this... although the thought occurs. At some level, I still hope that they will both manage to surprise me (in the good way). But the show is much kinder to Dany, so I'm quasi-positive that whatever book Dany does, show Dany will manage to learn from the Meereen experience and find an adult solution to the knot.

[Lady Baela Targaryen]

A man who finished his books. Who then finished his prequel-books. Who only then started to publish his wikis. While writing by hand.

What? The Hobbit was published in 1937 and The Lord of the Rings only in 1954-1955 (even though the publishers demanded a seguel to The Hobbit almost immediately after its publication). The Silmarillion (which was started in 1914, way before The Hobbit) and other "prequel-books and wikis" were edited and published only after Tolkien's death by his son Christopher.

[igrewupinKL]

Are you, uh, joking? The last scene in ADWD is her basically throwing all that character development away. It's 'nu-uh, I didn't manage to be naturally good at ruling, better stick to the burning and conquering part now, it's much easier'.

If it were what you're talking about, she'd go, 'OK, it's the first time I'm doing it, sure must be some bumps on the road, I don't think anybody'd be good at ruling without any practice, better learn from the experience, return to Meereen and try again'. Naah, it's all 'fire and blood, I can't look back'.

This was the one and only scene that made me genuinely angry at ADWD. Because it was obvious Martin was writing Dany this way because he had problems justifying why she wouldn't stay in Meereen instead of going to Westeros (that famous knot). At this point, I'm fully expecting book Dany to just drop Meereen like a broken toy and go for a new and shiny one (Westeros).

Now, I won't snark and say that she would be like her creator in this... although the thought occurs. At some level, I still hope that they will both manage to surprise me (in the good way). But the show is much kinder to Dany, so I'm quasi-positive that whatever book Dany does, show Dany will manage to learn from the Meereen experience and find an adult solution to the knot.

Your talking about one chapter, i wasn't. Dany was in the Dothraki sea, lonely and hungry reflecting on her life. She didn't say she was going to abandon Mereen. She won't abandon Mereen and just go to Westeros. In fact, admitting to herself that she wasn't a good queen to the people of Mereen is a step in the right direction. She realises in the grass that she will just never understand the culture of slavers bay and her attempts to change it have made things worse. I don't remember her thinking about 'fire and blood' in the way of Astapor. She's not going to just burn down Westeros for no reason. Fire and Blood are the words of her house, and to me they mean she will conquer Westeros just as Aegon I did. And yes, a lot of people are going to die and there is nothing she can do about it because thats what war and conquering come with. In slavers bay she was trying to protect the innocents, she realises now that there's nothing she can really do about it because people are always going to get hurt- she can't save everyone.

"If i look back i am lost" does not mean what i think you are saying. It implies that you need to always look to the future, not dwell on the mistakes of the past. You can't throw away character development like that, its the events in Mereen that lead her to this point in the story, and its totally understandable that she thinks its time to move on. BUT first she must finish what she started with Mereen and to me thats being a good leader for not just abandoning everything when she could just give up.

So, uh no, i'm not joking.

[aFeastForDragons]

A man who finished his books. Who then finished his prequel-books. Who only then started to publish his wikis. While writing by hand.

Ehhhhhh next time you are in a Library or bookshop notice how nearly every Tolkein book apart from the main 4 were released by his son years after Tolkein's death. Tolkein was notorious for being unable to finish stories and get books out. Tolkein never finished any of his prequel books after LOTR. Thats why the Silmarillion is a mess of a book to read.

[boojam]

A man who finished his books. Who then finished his prequel-books. Who only then started to publish his wikis. While writing by hand.

I'm sorry, I don't particularly like LotR myself (it's a product of its times), but you don't get to diss a linguist who created one of the most influential books of a century just to have some exercise with his invented languages in my presence.

Can I send this to Peter Jackson?

[breakfastfestival]

Ehhhhhh next time you are in a Library or bookshop notice how nearly every Tolkein book apart from the main 4 were released by his son years after Tolkein's death. Tolkein was notorious for being unable to finish stories and get books out. Tolkein never finished any of his prequel books after LOTR. Thats why the Silmarillion is a mess of a book to read.

So are you going to completely ignore following up on that BS you spouted about what you saw on Facebook?

[Konradsmith]

I won't go so far as to say there was any bullshitting going on but, yeah, could you follow up on that? We're pretty news-hungry here at the moment.

[Fez]

Isnt the battle of Mereen going to happen in S6 or am i wrong?

Its hard to know what exactly is happening with the battle of Meereen in the show. It may just be part of whatever is happening at Danzak's Pit in S5 (which certainly looks like an even larger event than what was in the books), or it maybe a scaled down version of whatever is in TWOW and be in S6. But if it is, then I think it has to be taken care in the first two episodes of S6 (and probably be mostly offscreen). There's just (presumably) too much material in the last two books' endgame to be lingering on mid-arc material late into the penultimate season.

[MoIaF]

A man who finished his books. Who then finished his prequel-books. Who only then started to publish his wikis. While writing by hand.

I'm sorry, I don't particularly like LotR myself (it's a product of its times), but you don't get to diss a linguist who created one of the most influential books of a century just to have some exercise with his invented languages in my presence.

Are you, uh, joking? The last scene in ADWD is her basically throwing all that character development away. It's 'nu-uh, I didn't manage to be naturally good at ruling, better stick to the burning and conquering part now, it's much easier'.

If it were what you're talking about, she'd go, 'OK, it's the first time I'm doing it, sure must be some bumps on the road, I don't think anybody'd be good at ruling without any practice, better learn from the experience, return to Meereen and try again'. Naah, it's all 'fire and blood, I can't look back'.

This was the one and only scene that made me genuinely angry at ADWD. Because it was obvious Martin was writing Dany this way because he had problems justifying why she wouldn't stay in Meereen instead of going to Westeros (that famous knot). At this point, I'm fully expecting book Dany to just drop Meereen like a broken toy and go for a new and shiny one (Westeros).

Now, I won't snark and say that she would be like her creator in this... although the thought occurs. At some level, I still hope that they will both manage to surprise me (in the good way). But the show is much kinder to Dany, so I'm quasi-positive that whatever book Dany does, show Dany will manage to learn from the Meereen experience and find an adult solution to the knot.

Your talking about one chapter, i wasn't. Dany was in the Dothraki sea, lonely and hungry reflecting on her life. She didn't say she was going to abandon Mereen. She won't abandon Mereen and just go to Westeros. In fact, admitting to herself that she wasn't a good queen to the people of Mereen is a step in the right direction. She realises in the grass that she will just never understand the culture of slavers bay and her attempts to change it have made things worse. I don't remember her thinking about 'fire and blood' in the way of Astapor. She's not going to just burn down Westeros for no reason. Fire and Blood are the words of her house, and to me they mean she will conquer Westeros just as Aegon I did. And yes, a lot of people are going to die and there is nothing she can do about it because thats what war and conquering come with. In slavers bay she was trying to protect the innocents, she realises now that there's nothing she can really do about it because people are always going to get hurt- she can't save everyone.

"If i look back i am lost" does not mean what i think you are saying. It implies that you need to always look to the future, not dwell on the mistakes of the past. You can't throw away character development like that, its the events in Mereen that lead her to this point in the story, and its totally understandable that she thinks its time to move on. BUT first she must finish what she started with Mereen and to me thats being a good leader for not just abandoning everything when she could just give up.

So, uh no, i'm not joking.

This,

But to take this a little further, Dany has been saying since the end of AGOT "if I look back I am lost" which in many ways was a coping mechanism. Her journey up to ADWD was basically powered by her forward momentum but that could no longer guide her journey and thus we see many of her struggles through ruling in Meereen.

However, if you notice Dany last words in ADWD are not fire and blood, she says to herself "to go forward, I must go back". These words to me are of reflection and acknowledgement or looking back to see what went wrong. Metaphorically speaking throughout her walk in the Dothraki sea she is constantly looking back at Dragonstone 2.0. Her time in Slaver's Bay is about growing up and growing strong, it's about fighting for what you believe is right, she stopped fighting in ADWD and it was to the detriment of herself and the freemen and slaves. Which is ironic because she had stopped fighting believing that would help them.

TWOIAF Spoiler:

We learn in TWOIAF that Egg was also trying to change Westeros society by empowering the smallfolk, however, his initiatives where constantly met with opposition and he had to acquiesce over and over again. He did not have dragons and could not make his reforms stick. This is actually a very good parallel to Dany, however, she unlike him does have dragons.

Back to the show, I hope that they are able to show this struggle within Dany well and I'm really looking forward to the Dothraki sea episode. I want to see Harry Lloyd and perhaps a couple of other guest.

[Hippocras]

This,

But to take this a little further, Dany has been saying since the end of AGOT "if I look back I am lost" which in many ways was a coping mechanism. Her journey up to ADWD was basically powered by her forward momentum but that could no longer guide her journey and thus we see many of her struggles through ruling in Meereen.

However, if you notice Dany last words in ADWD are not fire and blood, she says to herself "to go forward, I must go back". These words to me are of reflection and acknowledgement or looking back to see what went wrong. Metaphorically speaking throughout her walk in the Dothraki sea she is constantly looking back at Dragonstone 2.0. Her time in Slaver's Bay is about growing up and growing strong, it's about fighting for what you believe is right, she stopped fighting in ADWD and it was to the detriment of herself and the freemen and slaves. Which is ironic because she had stopped fighting believing that would help them.

TWOIAF Spoiler:

We learn in TWOIAF that Egg was also trying to change Westeros society by empowering the smallfolk, however, his initiatives where constantly met with opposition and he had to acquiesce over and over again. He did not have dragons and could not make his reforms stick. This is actually a very good parallel to Dany, however, she unlike him does have dragons.

Back to the show, I hope that they are able to show this struggle within Dany well and I'm really looking forward to the Dothraki sea episode. I want to see Harry Lloyd and perhaps a couple of other guest.

Great post

[sj4iy]

This,

But to take this a little further, Dany has been saying since the end of AGOT "if I look back I am lost" which in many ways was a coping mechanism. Her journey up to ADWD was basically powered by her forward momentum but that could no longer guide her journey and thus we see many of her struggles through ruling in Meereen.

However, if you notice Dany last words in ADWD are not fire and blood, she says to herself "to go forward, I must go back". These words to me are of reflection and acknowledgement or looking back to see what went wrong. Metaphorically speaking throughout her walk in the Dothraki sea she is constantly looking back at Dragonstone 2.0. Her time in Slaver's Bay is about growing up and growing strong, it's about fighting for what you believe is right, she stopped fighting in ADWD and it was to the detriment of herself and the freemen and slaves. Which is ironic because she had stopped fighting believing that would help them.

TWOIAF Spoiler:

We learn in TWOIAF that Egg was also trying to change Westeros society by empowering the smallfolk, however, his initiatives where constantly met with opposition and he had to acquiesce over and over again. He did not have dragons and could not make his reforms stick. This is actually a very good parallel to Dany, however, she unlike him does have dragons.

Back to the show, I hope that they are able to show this struggle within Dany well and I'm really looking forward to the Dothraki sea episode. I want to see Harry Lloyd and perhaps a couple of other guest.

I think the problem is that 'fighting for what you believe is right' isn't what a ruler does- that's what a revolutionary does. A ruler makes compromises- especially a ruler who is doing so in a foreign land where her beliefs clash with those of the local population. She tries and fails...but that doesn't mean that forcing her beliefs on them is better. She's simply not a good compromiser. If one is not good at compromising, then they shouldn't be in politics.

[The Onion Sleight]

Your talking about one chapter, i wasn't. Dany was in the Dothraki sea, lonely and hungry reflecting on her life. She didn't say she was going to abandon Mereen. She won't abandon Mereen and just go to Westeros. In fact, admitting to herself that she wasn't a good queen to the people of Mereen is a step in the right direction. She realises in the grass that she will just never understand the culture of slavers bay and her attempts to change it have made things worse. I don't remember her thinking about 'fire and blood' in the way of Astapor. She's not going to just burn down Westeros for no reason. Fire and Blood are the words of her house, and to me they mean she will conquer Westeros just as Aegon I did. And yes, a lot of people are going to die and there is nothing she can do about it because thats what war and conquering come with. In slavers bay she was trying to protect the innocents, she realises now that there's nothing she can really do about it because people are always going to get hurt- she can't save everyone.

"If i look back i am lost" does not mean what i think you are saying. It implies that you need to always look to the future, not dwell on the mistakes of the past. You can't throw away character development like that, its the events in Mereen that lead her to this point in the story, and its totally understandable that she thinks its time to move on. BUT first she must finish what she started with Mereen and to me thats being a good leader for not just abandoning everything when she could just give up.

So, uh no, i'm not joking.

This,

But to take this a little further, Dany has been saying since the end of AGOT "if I look back I am lost" which in many ways was a coping mechanism. Her journey up to ADWD was basically powered by her forward momentum but that could no longer guide her journey and thus we see many of her struggles through ruling in Meereen.

However, if you notice Dany last words in ADWD are not fire and blood, she says to herself "to go forward, I must go back". These words to me are of reflection and acknowledgement or looking back to see what went wrong. Metaphorically speaking throughout her walk in the Dothraki sea she is constantly looking back at Dragonstone 2.0. Her time in Slaver's Bay is about growing up and growing strong, it's about fighting for what you believe is right, she stopped fighting in ADWD and it was to the detriment of herself and the freemen and slaves. Which is ironic because she had stopped fighting believing that would help them.

TWOIAF Spoiler:

We learn in TWOIAF that Egg was also trying to change Westeros society by empowering the smallfolk, however, his initiatives where constantly met with opposition and he had to acquiesce over and over again. He did not have dragons and could not make his reforms stick. This is actually a very good parallel to Dany, however, she unlike him does have dragons.

Back to the show, I hope that they are able to show this struggle within Dany well and I'm really looking forward to the Dothraki sea episode. I want to see Harry Lloyd and perhaps a couple of other guest.

Great post

:agree:

Very well said and explained, you both!

[Janicia]

I think the problem is that 'fighting for what you believe is right' isn't what a ruler does- that's what a revolutionary does. A ruler makes compromises- especially a ruler who is doing so in a foreign land where her beliefs clash with those of the local population. She tries and fails...but that doesn't mean that forcing her beliefs on them is better. She's simply not a good compromiser. If one is not good at compromising, then they shouldn't be in politics.

But they might be incredibly useful in an existential struggle against the White Walkers.

[sj4iy]

But they might be incredibly useful in an existential struggle against the White Walkers.

I completely agree with that :)

[MoIaF]

I think the problem is that 'fighting for what you believe is right' isn't what a ruler does- that's what a revolutionary does. A ruler makes compromises- especially a ruler who is doing so in a foreign land where her beliefs clash with those of the local population. She tries and fails...but that doesn't mean that forcing her beliefs on them is better. She's simply not a good compromiser. If one is not good at compromising, then they shouldn't be in politics.

Have you read TWOIAF?

Egg compromised and compromised and then compromised some more and he had a very troubled reign as king. It's not always about compromising, especially with the lives of thousands are in the balance. A great ruler fights for it's people, especially for those who have been oppressed for so long. Those are the ruler who make a difference. Not all rulers need to be the same.

As I mentioned above Dany compromised in ADWD and it was to the detriment of her people and herself, there are things in life you just can't compromise with. Believe people should not be enslave is not forcing your belief on someone else, it's a moral obligation. It's the right thing to do, especially from what we see and learn of Slaver's Bay.

[The Onion Sleight]

I won't go so far as to say there was any bullshitting going on but, yeah, could you follow up on that? We're pretty news-hungry here at the moment.

All Quiet on the Northern Front :( (Well, actually not. But for us fans...)

[sj4iy]

Have you read TWOIAF?

Egg compromised and compromised and then compromised some more and he had a very troubled reign as king. It's not always about compromising, especially with the lives of thousands are in the balance. A great ruler fights for it's people, especially for those who have been oppressed for so long. Those are the ruler who make a difference. Not all rulers need to be the same.

As I mentioned above Dany compromised in ADWD and it was to the detriment of her people and herself, there are things in life you just can't compromise with. Believe people should not be enslave is not forcing your belief on someone else, it's a moral obligation. It's the right thing to do, especially from what we see and learn of Slaver's Bay.

I don't need to read TWOIAF to know how politics work. You act as if Dany's compromises were the problems with her rule- they weren't. Her inconsistency, failure to plan long-term and easy manipulation were the problems. She didn't know WHEN to compromise or give way. You can't take a hard line, because it will ultimately fail. She simply wasn't a good ruler. She is a great revolutionary and a great conquerer, but she doesn't have the skills to be a great ruler.

[The Onion Sleight]

I want some Stannis/Stephen and Roose/Michael and Theon/Alfie and Yara/Gemma! :bawl:

(Even if it'd be just being in a restaurant, or at a concert... or buying baked/stoned some ice cream)=

[MoIaF]

I don't need to read TWOIAF to know how politics work. You act as if Dany's compromises were the problems with her rule- they weren't. Her inconsistency, failure to plan long-term and easy manipulation were the problems. She didn't know WHEN to compromise or give way. You can't take a hard line, because it will ultimately fail. She simply wasn't a good ruler. She is a great revolutionary and a great conquerer, but she doesn't have the skills to be a great ruler.

You shouldn't dismiss it so offhandedly. The parallel is there for comparison and not by coincidence, given the POV's of one of the major protagonist of the story.

That's not how I read her rule of Meereen. I don't think she was an awful ruler, she struggled tremendously and of course could have done things differently, however, she was doing the best she could with what she had. I'm not sure many other could have done much better. If we discuss our current political situation even the best experts of our time have a very hard time dealing with insurgencies and sabotage, to blame her for not dealing with it effectively is disingenuous given the nature of insurgencies and sabotage she experience.