Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[UnmaskedLurker]

I never thought he was a cartoon villain, but I can certainly make the case for different motivations for some of actions if he believes or knows Tyrion isn't his son.

For example, instead of the Tysha rape being Tywin being Tywin who doesn't care about the small folk and is incensed at the idea of a peasant thinking to marry into the Lannister family and a mirror of what happened with his own father, nothing really personal there, just his idea of a sharp lesson....the event becomes actually darker...he's punishing Tyrion SPECIFICALLY, because Tyrion is a product of an unsanctioned sexual union with his own wife...which is why the punishment is sexualized and why he makes Tyrion participate...that is way more villianous to me.

Same with the Ellia rape and murder of her children. Instead of Tywin being Tywin, a ruthless bastard, the murders are personal, he's killing Aerys grandchildren not for any reasons of succession as has been given, but because he hates Aerys...and I have generally resisted the idea the he ordered Ellia's rape...but the cukholded, humiliated Tywin...he would have done so, because he would wish to harm and humiliate any member of the royal family he could get his hands on..so instead of the rape and brutality as an oversight...it's also very, very personal. More villainous, not less.

It just turns Tywin's characterization into an inconsistent hash of contradictions, where before we had a consistent picture of a ruthless, efficient guy who did what he felt was necessary to get what he wanted...always. Now, he careens around emotionally, over reacting here, under reacting there, his actions making no sense half the time.

Tywin "could not prove that Tyrion was not his son." Tywin wasn't sure. He suspected but he was not sure. And maybe Tywin made promises to Joanna regarding protecting Tyrion. And that might explain Tywin's contradictions--between his hatred based on his suspicions regarding Aerys and his promise to his late wife. We won't know until all the books are written. But just because a reader thought he or she had Tywin's character figured out does not mean that new information that reforms those views would necessarily be bad--just different.

[Maia]

This whole debate becames pointless if you consider Tywin a cartoon villain, which you do.

I never did, but then I had my doubts about Tyrion's paternity by ACoK and was sure after ASoS, so... I also believed all that stuff about Tywin giving the realm almost 2 decades of peace and plenty and receiving only slights and envy from Aerys in return, which most readers seem to have been very skeptical about. So, yea, I always thought that there was human depth to Tywin, which is why I enjoyed his character.

Whereas most people on the forums liked him as a magnificent bastard brought down by hipocrisy, apparently. Which is fun too, I admit, but it doesn't make the character deep or his hate-relationship with Tyrion "extraordinary". It is, in fact, very straightforward and rather tropy. But to each their own.

[Cas Stark]

Tywin "could not prove that Tyrion was not his son." Tywin wasn't sure. He suspected but he was not sure. And maybe Tywin made promises to Joanna regarding protecting Tyrion. And that might explain Tywin's contradictions--between his hatred based on his suspicions regarding Aerys and his promise to his late wife. We won't know until all the books are written. But just because a reader thought he or she had Tywin's character figured out does not mean that new information that reforms those views would necessarily be bad--just different.

Yeah, but, if Joanna had a consensual affair with Aerys, why does Tywin even still love and respect her? That, again is totally out of character. Now he's a love sick husband who tolerates public humiliation and infidelity? On the other hand, if it was a rape, and she still made him promise to protect the child, that might work....though, it's WEAK...just like the whole premise of Tyrion as a Targ bastard is weak. It sucks. I'm sorry if GRRM felt that he needed to do it to make Tyrion ride a dragon, because it does suck, it sucks whether he meant to do it from the beginning or not. Everything he does isn't fabulous. Quentyn sucked as well. The Greyjoy POVs are unnecessary. I could go on, but you get my drift. Where do whores go...ahem......

[Ramsay Gimp]

it's WEAK...just like the whole premise of Tyrion as a Targ bastard is weak. It sucks. I'm sorry if GRRM felt that he needed to do it to make Tyrion ride a dragon, because it does suck, it sucks whether he meant to do it from the beginning or not. Everything he does isn't fabulous. Quentyn sucked as well. The Greyjoy POVs are unnecessary. I could go on, but you get my drift. Where do whores go...ahem......

Plus it adds another level of soap-opera sexual shenanigans in King's Landing, with the Lannisters at the center of it all. Enough is enough

[Maia]

Same with the Ellia rape and murder of her children. Instead of Tywin being Tywin, a ruthless bastard, the murders are personal, he's killing Aerys grandchildren not for any reasons of succession as has been given, but because he hates Aerys... and I have generally resisted the idea the he ordered Ellia's rape...but the cukholded, humiliated Tywin...he would have done so, because he would wish to harm and humiliate any member of the royal family he could get his hands on..so instead of the rape and brutality as an oversight...it's also very, very personal. More villainous, not less.

I still don't think that Tywin ordered the fate of Elia. But the Sack - yea, it was personal. If anybody can control his soldiers, it is Tywin, and this brutality to the populace was unnecessary in this case and hurt House Lannister in the long run. I have always thought that it was Tywin's "I wish that I had enough poison for all of you!" moment - and in this instance he did. KL is the site of his decade-long humiliation and under-appreciation, and he punished it.

It just turns Tywin's characterization into an inconsistent hash of contradictions, where before we had a consistent picture of a ruthless, efficient guy who did what he felt was necessary to get what he wanted...always.

Some of Tywin's actions never made any sense from this angle, his treatment of Tyrion foremost among them. He never was the guy you saw him as. That was just the front that he successfully projected.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah, but, if Joanna had a consensual affair with Aerys, why does Tywin even still love and respect her? That, again is totally out of character. Now he's a love sick husband who tolerates public humiliation and infidelity? On the other hand, if it was a rape, and she still made him promise to protect the child, that might work....though, it's WEAK...just like the whole premise of Tyrion as a Targ bastard is weak. It sucks. I'm sorry if GRRM felt that he needed to do it to make Tyrion ride a dragon, because it does suck, it sucks whether he meant to do it from the beginning or not. Everything he does isn't fabulous. Quentyn sucked as well. The Greyjoy POVs are unnecessary. I could go on, but you get my drift. Where do whores go...ahem......

As to whether it was rape or consensual--we don't know . . . yet. My suspicion is that it was in between. I think Aerys had Joanna brought to his bed and Joanna knew she did not have a choice. So by our standards, it is certainly rape. By the standards of that society--less clear. But I am not sure Tywin knew for sure that this happened--he may have only had his suspicions. So a promise to Joanna--who seemed to be the only person ever able to control Tywin, makes some sense.

[mezmerised]

Yeah, but, if Joanna had a consensual affair with Aerys, why does Tywin even still love and respect her? That, again is totally out of character. Now he's a love sick husband who tolerates public humiliation and infidelity? On the other hand, if it was a rape, and she still made him promise to protect the child, that might work....though, it's WEAK...just like the whole premise of Tyrion as a Targ bastard is weak. It sucks. I'm sorry if GRRM felt that he needed to do it to make Tyrion ride a dragon, because it does suck, it sucks whether he meant to do it from the beginning or not. Everything he does isn't fabulous. Quentyn sucked as well. The Greyjoy POVs are unnecessary. I could go on, but you get my drift. Where do whores go...ahem......

I can't even see how a promise to Joanna could make sense in any scenario. And also couldn't Tywin find some way to protect him without keeping him in his family's line of succession?

Tywin is a medieval Lord. He just can't rlsk losing his House, his seat, his bannermen to the bastard child of a rival just because it was his wife's dying wish that that child should be raised as a Lannister. It's crazy. It goes against not only Tywin's personality but also every other Lord's in Westeros as well.

Look at Cat and how worried she always is about the mere presence of Jon Snow who is just acknowledged as a bastard, not a real Stark. And most people, apart from Cat haters and the most rabid Jon fans, understand her motives for being wary of him for the simple reason that his existence poses a threat to her family. That's just a fact in medieval society.

And speaking about Jon...Joanna making Tywin promise to raise her and Aerys' son as his own sounds an awful lot like Lyanna making Ned promise to raise her and Rhaegar's son as his own. I mean seriously...there is characters going through parallel arcs and then there is blatantly copying Jon's arc even though Tyrion previously had a perfectly fine unique arc of his own.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I can't even see how a promise to Joanna could make sense in any scenario. And also couldn't Tywin find some way to protect him without keeping him in his family's line of succession?

Tywin is a medieval Lord. He just can't rlsk losing his House, his seat, his bannermen to the bastard child of a rival just because it was his wife's dying wish that that child should be raised as a Lannister. It's crazy. It goes against not only Tywin's personality but also every other Lord's in Westeros as well.

Look at Cat and how worried she always is about the mere presence of Jon Snow who is just acknowledged as a bastard, not a real Stark. And most people, apart from Cat haters and the most rabid Jon fans, understand her motives for being wary of him for the simple reason that his existence poses a threat to her family. That's just a fact in medieval society.

And speaking about Jon...Joanna making Tywin promise to raise her and Aerys' son as his own sounds an awful lot like Lyanna making Ned promise to raise her and Rhaegar's son as his own. I mean seriously...there is characters going through parallel arcs and then there is blatantly copying Jon's arc even though Tyrion previously had a perfectly fine unique arc of his own.

Spot on.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yeah, but, if Joanna had a consensual affair with Aerys, why does Tywin even still love and respect her? That, again is totally out of character. Now he's a love sick husband who tolerates public humiliation and infidelity? On the other hand, if it was a rape, and she still made him promise to protect the child, that might work....though, it's WEAK...just like the whole premise of Tyrion as a Targ bastard is weak. It sucks. I'm sorry if GRRM felt that he needed to do it to make Tyrion ride a dragon, because it does suck, it sucks whether he meant to do it from the beginning or not. Everything he does isn't fabulous. Quentyn sucked as well. The Greyjoy POVs are unnecessary. I could go on, but you get my drift. Where do whores go...ahem......

Joanna presumably swore blind that the child was Tywin's.

[Ingelheim]

I can't even see how a promise to Joanna could make sense in any scenario. And also couldn't Tywin find some way to protect him without keeping him in his family's line of succession?

Tywin is a medieval Lord. He just can't rlsk losing his House, his seat, his bannermen to the bastard child of a rival just because it was his wife's dying wish that that child should be raised as a Lannister. It's crazy. It goes against not only Tywin's personality but also every other Lord's in Westeros as well.

Look at Cat and how worried she always is about the mere presence of Jon Snow who is just acknowledged as a bastard, not a real Stark. And most people, apart from Cat haters and the most rabid Jon fans, understand her motives for being wary of him for the simple reason that his existence poses a threat to her family. That's just a fact in medieval society.

And speaking about Jon...Joanna making Tywin promise to raise her and Aerys' son as his own sounds an awful lot like Lyanna making Ned promise to raise her and Rhaegar's son as his own. I mean seriously...there is characters going through parallel arcs and then there is blatantly copying Jon's arc even though Tyrion previously had a perfectly fine unique arc of his own.

This. Spot on.

[UnmaskedLurker]

And speaking about Jon...Joanna making Tywin promise to raise her and Aerys' son as his own sounds an awful lot like Lyanna making Ned promise to raise her and Rhaegar's son as his own. I mean seriously...there is characters going through parallel arcs and then there is blatantly copying Jon's arc even though Tyrion previously had a perfectly fine unique arc of his own.

One thing seems clear--if Tywin suspected he certainly did not KNOW that Tyrion was not really his. So any promise would have been of a different nature--perhaps due to Tyrion appearing to be deformed at birth. Joanna could have used that issue as an excuse to extract a promise before she died. I admit it would still be a close copy of the Lyanna/Ned situation, so I am not saying I think it is what happened. My point is that there are at least two more books to be written and tons of possible explanations to make Tywin's actions make more sense.

[Jasta11]

I haven't got the book but from what I've gleaned GrrM has hinted that Tywin might well suspect Tyrion is not his son, something Tywin actually said directly in the novels. I'm fine with this and I think it does add some depth to Tywin and makes his hatred of Tyrion more, hmmm, understandable.

But this doesn't mean Tyrion actually has to be Aerys's son. He probably isn't and it's a moot point because no one in world can ever prove it one way or the other providing there are no dragon rider shenanigans (which I don't think there will be). I think there's a point to all these little hints if we think GrrM wants to explain the depth of Tywin's hostility to Tyrion. We don't have to go further and assume that GrrM actually means to reveal Tyrion as Aerys's son.

Yeah, I think that an existing doubt, in the minds of the reader and Tywin, is interesting. it certainly gives Tywin yet another reason to loath Tyrion, even as he cannot prove that he is not his.

Going all out and revealing he's Aerys's bastard, however, would destroy that a bit, since Tywin would have found to be right to an extent. Because then Tyrion has no claim to Casterly Rock, and Tywin has no obligations to him whatsoever and in-universe can treat him as cruelly as he damn well please, since he's just a bastard.

At this I just don't really want to give intentions to GRRM. Maybe he wants to slowly reveal that Tyrion is Aerys's bastard, maybe he just wants to provide some clues to fuel debate until the ends of times, maybe it's just a giant red herring. But I take the same stance as I take for all theories, even far more plausible ones like R+L+J; not confirmed until it says so in the text.

EDIT: I also agree with Ramsay Gimp, I feel like we really had more than enough ''X is really the son of Y! Surprise!!'' plots already. We already have Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen, Aegon, Jon, and there's theories about others such as Sweetrobin, and that's just in the novels, not counting the boatload of the stuff in Targaryen history. Adding Tyrion just makes it overkill, especially since he already has a perfectly valid and unique arc of his own.

[Maia]

Keeping a dwarf in the line of succession was crazy either way from the view of a medieval lord. He was risking turning his House into a House of dwarfs! It just doesn't make sense from any logical perspective. Which is why it is a huge pity that we didn't get Kevan's insight into the situation and his view of the relationship between the T's before he shuffled off the mortal coil.

I suspect that nobody in House Lannister considered Tyrion as being in line to inherit, nor believed that he could or would have insisted on his rights. Tywin's complaisance in public mocking of Tyrion and even encouragement to his lords to take a crack at him (as seen in AGoT) served as additional safe-guard, I imagine. Tyrion's successful Handship and ill-fated confrontation with Tywin changed all that.

I don't believe that there was any promise to Joanna involved. IMHO, Tywin immediately suspected Tyrion's parentage due to his black hair (at birth) and eye and Joanna's previous history of pre-marital affairs/infidelity. And yes his desire to avoid having been the cause of Joanna's death and sire of a monster played into it, too, naturally. But he had real reasons for his doubts as well, it wasn't just pure self-delusion.

That's why Tywin was so rude to his wife's friend the Princess of Dorne and refused to even think about fulfilling his beloved's last wishes at least partially or in some form. He was grieving, yes, but also furious at Joanna.

BTW, the whole thing with the Dornish only coming after Joanna's death always made me wonder if Tyrion's birth wasn't premature, or, at least considered so. Both Joanna and her friend had to know about the risks of childbirth, and planned to meet _before_ the former was brought to childbed.

[mezmerised]

Keeping a dwarf in the line of succession was crazy either way from the view of a medieval lord. He was risking turning his House into a House of dwarfs! It just doesn't make sense from any logical perspective. Which is why it is a huge pity that we didn't get Kevan's insight into the situation and his view of the relationship between the T's before he shuffled off the mortal coil.

I suspect that nobody in House Lannister considered Tyrion as being in line to inherit, nor believed that he could or would have insisted on his rights. Tywin's complaisance in public mocking of Tyrion and even encouragement to his lords to take a crack at him (as seen in AGoT) served as additional safe-guard, I imagine. Tyrion's successful Handship and ill-fated confrontation with Tywin changed all that.

I don't believe that there was any promise to Joanna involved. IMHO, Tywin immediately suspected Tyrion's parentage due to his black hair (at birth) and eye and Joanna's previous history of pre-marital affairs/infidelity. And yes his desire to avoid having been the cause of Joanna's death and sire of a monster played into it, too, naturally. But he had real reasons for his doubts as well, it wasn't just pure self-delusion.

That's why Tywin was so rude to his wife's friend the Princess of Dorne and refused to even think about fulfilling his beloved's last wishes at least partially or in some form. He was grieving, yes, but also furious at Joanna.

BTW, the whole thing with the Dornish only coming after Joanna's death always made me wonder if Tyrion's birth wasn't premature, or, at least considered so. Both Joanna and her friend had to know about the risks of childbirth, and planned to meet _before_ the former was brought to childbed.

The stakes for Tywin are about a million times higher if Tyrion is a bastard dwarf than if he's a dwarf but also a trueborn Lannister. After Tywin's death he has no control over who will succeed him. Yes, he will have sworn in Kevan and all the important Westerland nobles on pressing for Jaime's release from the KG and maybe there was even a secret plan to buy him out. But if Jaime refuses or Robert refuses or anything else goes wrong there apparently seems to have been no plan B. Meaning the Lannisters are in the middle of a succession crisis and Tyrion is legally the next heir in line because Tywin for some bizarre reason never prevented this from happening.

Now if a trueborn Tyrion somehow manages to become Lord of CR the worst thing that could happen is that he won't be able to father able-bodied sons, the Lannisters then realize they can't go on like that and Tyrion will end up appointing one of Kevan's children/grandchildren as his heir.

If Tyrion is a Targ bastard and can't father able-bodied children the same thing will happen. But if there is one - just one(!) - able-bodied kid among Tyrion's children the Lannister line will go on to him and then to his heirs. Which means that the reigning family of CR will now be descended from Targaryens and that Tywin for some yet unexplained reason just decided to let it happen!

He didn't actively aid them in taking the Rock and the Westerlands from the true Lannister line but he also did absolutely nothing to prevent it from happening. When all he had to do was send a boy he strongly suspected to be a bastard away to the Citadel, the Faith, the Wall, make sure he's disinherited and then let him travel through Essos, whatever, he just needs to do something!

And what are the upsides for Tywin in keeping Tyrion around anyway? Is he such a masochist that he needs his daily dose of pain and humiliation to get through the day?

[oursisthefury69]

HAHAHAHEHEHEAHAHAHA

[Chaircat Meow]

I have been wracking my feline brain about this. I'm pretty sure Aerys did rape Joanna in 273. We hear Tywin offered to resign the next day, implying that the real reason he wanted to quit his job occurred sometime after Aerys's remark about Joanna's breasts (a night after). The king was also drunk and violating Tywin's wife seemed like a good idea at the time. Joanna and Tywin must have been trying for another child at the time, so Joanna didn't want to drink moon tea. When Tyrion was born Tywin suspected Joanna had been wrong about not getting impregnated by Aerys.

I think Joanna being raped by Aerys under Tywin's nose makes a lot of sense. We've always had explanations for Tywin's dark behaviour but there has always been something unsatisfying about them.

Tywin, we thought, hated Tyrion because he was a dwarf, killed his wife and caused people to laugh at the lannisters. He had Tysha raped as a hard lesson to Tyrion, in order that he wouldn't emulate the soft ways of Lord Tytos (even though Tywin never planned on him inheriting). He had Elia raped and murdered to avenge Aerys's refusal of Cersei.

These explanations are adequate (and still true) but it all makes more sense if Aerys's humiliation of Tywin and Joanna in 273 is also at the back of Tywin's mind. Tywin didn't just despise Tyrion because of his dwarfism and the shame he brought on the lannister name: he knew Tyrion could have been the son of the man who raped his wife and humiliated him. Tyrion reminds Tywin of his very worst humiliation all the time. Tyrion could become a surrogate for Aerys, on whom Tywin could no longer take vengeance. This then explains the cruelty of his punishment of Tyrion wrt Tysha. That never made sense as just as 'stiff lesson,' or a warning not to be Tytos and stay away from 'gold diggers.' Tywin was reliving his own experiences in Aerys's court and taking revenge on Aerys by having Aerys's son see his wife raped. The rape and murder of Elia was also payback for what happened to Joanna, in addition to revenge for Aerys's refusal of Cersei for Rhaegar.

Tywin comes across as much more like Tyrion than we previously thought, driven to terrible acts by past humiliation and abuse. I think this is certainly what GrrM intends. We start seeing Tywin as starkly different to Tyrion, but gradually we see the strong parallels, as Tyrion, who now appears more like his father, gets darker.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I have been wracking my feline brain about this. I'm pretty sure Aerys did rape Joanna in 273. We hear Tywin offered to resign the next day, implying that the real reason he wanted to quit his job occurred sometime after Aerys's remark about Joanna's breasts (a night after). The king was also drunk and violating Tywin's wife seemed like a good idea at the time. Joanna and Tywin must have been trying for another child at the time, so Joanna didn't want to drink moon tea. When Tyrion was born Tywin suspected Joanna had been wrong about not getting impregnated by Aerys.

I think Joanna being raped by Aerys under Tywin's nose makes a lot of sense. We've always had explanations for Tywin's dark behaviour but there has always been something unsatisfying about them.

Tywin, we thought, hated Tyrion because he was a dwarf, killed his wife and caused people to laugh at the lannisters. He had Tysha raped as a hard lesson to Tyrion, in order that he wouldn't emulate the soft ways of Lord Tytos (even though Tywin never planned on him inheriting). He had Elia raped and murdered to avenge Aerys's refusal of Cersei.

These explanations are adequate (and still true) but it all makes more sense if Aerys's humiliation of Tywin and Joanna in 273 is also at the back of Tywin's mind. Tywin didn't just despise Tyrion because of his dwarfism and the shame he brought on the lannister name: he knew Tyrion could have been the son of the man who raped his wife and humiliated him. Tyrion reminds Tywin of his very worst humiliation all the time. Tyrion could become a surrogate for Aerys, on whom Tywin could no longer take vengeance. This then explains the cruelty of his punishment of Tyrion wrt Tysha. That never made sense as just as 'stiff lesson,' or a warning not to be Tytos and stay away from 'gold diggers.' Tywin was reliving his own experiences in Aerys's court and taking revenge on Aerys by having Aerys's son see his wife raped. The rape and murder of Elia was also payback for what happened to Joanna, in addition to revenge for Aerys's refusal of Cersei for Rhaegar.

Tywin comes across as much more like Tyrion than we previously thought, driven to terrible acts by past humiliation and abuse. I think this is certainly what GrrM intends. We start seeing Tywin as starkly different to Tyrion, but gradually we see the strong parallels, as Tyrion, who now appears more like his father, gets darker.

I basically agree with this analysis and think that it is a pretty good counter to the people who think that A+J=T "ruins" the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. One very minor technical correction, I believe that Tyrion was born in 273 but the Anniversary Tourney at which Aerys likely rapes Joanna took place in 272. By the way, while we would consider what happened rape, I am not sure under their standards it would be--I suspect what happened is that Aerys had her brought to his chambers and it was clear to her that she had no choice. Under modern standards--no question that is rape. Under the standard of that society--less clear. Either way, it explains Tywin's behavior and Tyrion's deformities and, most important, how Tyrion will be able to be one of the three heads of the dragon.

[Chaircat Meow]

Ah yea, got the date wrong. Thanks for that.

[Chaircat Meow]

By the way, while we would consider what happened rape, I am not sure under their standards it would be--I suspect what happened is that Aerys had her brought to his chambers and it was clear to her that she had no choice. Under modern standards--no question that is rape. Under the standard of that society--less clear. Either way, it explains Tywin's behavior and Tyrion's deformities and, most important, how Tyrion will be able to be one of the three heads of the dragon.

There was presumably blackmail/use of the king's position involved yes. But Aerys had already insulted her and was very drunk, so him being violent with her seems likely, especially as this would have been a way to get at Tywin.

[Ingelheim]

I have been wracking my feline brain about this. I'm pretty sure Aerys did rape Joanna in 273. We hear Tywin offered to resign the next day, implying that the real reason he wanted to quit his job occurred sometime after Aerys's remark about Joanna's breasts (a night after). The king was also drunk and violating Tywin's wife seemed like a good idea at the time. Joanna and Tywin must have been trying for another child at the time, so Joanna didn't want to drink moon tea. When Tyrion was born Tywin suspected Joanna had been wrong about not getting impregnated by Aerys.

I think Joanna being raped by Aerys under Tywin's nose makes a lot of sense. We've always had explanations for Tywin's dark behaviour but there has always been something unsatisfying about them.

Tywin, we thought, hated Tyrion because he was a dwarf, killed his wife and caused people to laugh at the lannisters. He had Tysha raped as a hard lesson to Tyrion, in order that he wouldn't emulate the soft ways of Lord Tytos (even though Tywin never planned on him inheriting). He had Elia raped and murdered to avenge Aerys's refusal of Cersei.

These explanations are adequate (and still true) but it all makes more sense if Aerys's humiliation of Tywin and Joanna in 273 is also at the back of Tywin's mind. Tywin didn't just despise Tyrion because of his dwarfism and the shame he brought on the lannister name: he knew Tyrion could have been the son of the man who raped his wife and humiliated him. Tyrion reminds Tywin of his very worst humiliation all the time. Tyrion could become a surrogate for Aerys, on whom Tywin could no longer take vengeance. This then explains the cruelty of his punishment of Tyrion wrt Tysha. That never made sense as just as 'stiff lesson,' or a warning not to be Tytos and stay away from 'gold diggers.' Tywin was reliving his own experiences in Aerys's court and taking revenge on Aerys by having Aerys's son see his wife raped. The rape and murder of Elia was also payback for what happened to Joanna, in addition to revenge for Aerys's refusal of Cersei for Rhaegar.

Tywin comes across as much more like Tyrion than we previously thought, driven to terrible acts by past humiliation and abuse. I think this is certainly what GrrM intends. We start seeing Tywin as starkly different to Tyrion, but gradually we see the strong parallels, as Tyrion, who now appears more like his father, gets darker.

:cheers: