JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 If Tyrion wasn't Tywin's son, why on earth would he mention him at all? Why would he lie? Pride? He does mentions that he can't prove he's not his, which makes me believe she has certain doubts. But I think that's the irony: it's the doubt what kills him, not the certain because he is indeed his son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Pride? He does mentions that he can't prove he's not his, which makes me believe she has certain doubts. But I think that's the irony: it's the doubt what kills him, not the certain because he is indeed his son. I am talking of Martin lying. His quotes states his father named him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Tyrion being named by his father does not exclude the possibility of Gerion being his father. Aerys was miles away but Gerion was there. BTW, Tyrion was named after Tyrion the Tormentor. Why do you keep peddling this? There are exactly two candidates for Tyrion's father, and Gerion is not one of them. It would be the stupidest, most pointless twist ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I am talking of Martin lying. His quotes states his father named him. well, practically, Tywin is his father. As Ned is Jon's. ETA: I'm still half sleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 well, practically, Tywin is his father. As Ned is Jon's. ETA: I'm still half sleep But GRRM took care not to call Ned Jon's "father." Not so for Tywin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 But GRRM took care not to call Ned Jon's "father." Not so for Tywin btw, I don't believe Tyrion is a targ... I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I mean, there are a few small hints that could make believe this, but I think are red herrings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 But GRRM took care not to call Ned Jon's "father." Not so for Tywin George didnot say "Tywin" in that SSM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 well, practically, Tywin is his father. As Ned is Jon's. ETA: I'm still half sleep Well, this is the SSM quote in question. 5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names? Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned. It's worded in a way that makes it strange to state that "Tyrion was named by his [adopted] father" if he's being coy about Tyrion's paternity, but then go on to name "Ned" as Jon's namer in this context, since we get that Ned is Jon's adoptive father. Either he could have stated "Dany was named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, and Jon by his father" or "Dany was named by Rhaella, Tyrion by Tywin, and Jon by Ned" if A+J was a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Please restrain yourself of mentioning me in debate I am not active participant. It is tasteless, but alas, not surprising. Thank you very much. Figured twas a good example of somebody who gets their 2 cents in literally every thread (especially pertaining to this, as mentioned) which this alas is proof of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 George didnot say "Tywin" in that SSM. So Aerys named Tyrion now? EDIT: I forgot about your Gerion theory, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Well, this is the SSM quote in question. 5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names? Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned. It's worded in a way that makes it strange to state that "Tyrion was named by his [adopted] father" if he's being coy about Tyrion's paternity, but then go on to name "Ned" as Jon's namer in this context, since we get that Ned is Jon's adoptive father. Either he could have stated "Dany was named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, and Jon by his father" or "Dany was named by Rhaella, Tyrion by Tywin, and Jon by Ned" if A+J was a thing. I understand this argument and see why people interpret it as evidence against AJT. I think Corbon has said that he believed AJT until this SSM and reversed his position almost entirely as a result of this SSM. But to me, I think it makes too much of the point. GRRM knew that rumors about RLJ were running wild at the time he made the statement, so he named Ned by name to avoid creating a dispute of the issue. Assuming ATJ to be true (as I think it is), it is easily explained that GRRM did not think there was much speculation at that time about ATJ, so merely referencing Tywin as Tyrion's father was no big deal--whereas referencing Ned as Jon's father would have started a host of speculation. As careful as GRRM may be when he speaks, it is just not possible to be that careful with every word. So I don't think GRRM was lying--he just was not being quite as careful with his "parallel construction" in referencing one adopted parent as the "father" and the other by his name, Ned. GRRM tries to give honest answers without giving away mysteries--that can be an exhausting exercise and I think people read way too much into some of these SSMs. They may be canon or semi-canon for the explicit statements make, but they are also intended to be partial evasions much of the time and cannot be expected to be in the same vain as carefully crafted clues in literature. So the implications from the sentence structure should not be used to prove too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 One should ask if A+J=T is as true as R+L=J and it is a similar construct since from the beginning with subtle clues, then why are there over 100 R+L=J threads whereas A+J=T related posts cannot amount to more than 5 threads? LMFAO, wow just wow man, the general opinion of and most frequent threads made on this forum is not the standard of something being true. Because The people who post religiously on here are more aware of the more obvious R+L=J, and are entirely unaware of/ in denial of the much more subtle concept with Tyrion. Thats why you dont see as many threads. WOW, just so plainly indicative of the whole reason it s never discussed to begin with, while your your literally saying this as a way of trying to disprove its validity. The psychology behind that is absolutely mind-boggling Like you have an identical acronym for it, hilarious. I began reading this comment to someone and they had already stopped me by "One should ask if A+J=T is as true as R+L=J." Like you clearly have some very fundamental lack of understandings. For starters, what does "as true" even mean? Id love a direct answer for that (and im sure ill never get it). Somethings either true or its not, English fundamentals. Secondly why is it immediately compared to that "theory" (fact). Makes it so obvious how you are entirely influenced by what you read on these boards and not in the books, something doesnt need to be as constantly harped on and rediscussed on these boards as that theory is to qualify it as plausible. All having over 100 threads on the same topic shows is people uncapable of finding and discussing things that werent figured out by the first person who ever read the first book the first time, not that its the ultimate standard for proof. difference between truth and obviousness bottom line, and when you only base your attention an opinions of the series on these forums then i cant be suprised you havent picked up on it thread frequency = theory validity = huge joke. There was what 1 single thread ever predicting Aegon had survived the sack? (im aware and believe in Faegon, its not the point) 1 person who was able to pick up on the clues Varys gave and thought Aegon had survived the sack before book 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 LMFAO, wow just wow man, the general opinion of and most frequent threads made on this forum is not the standard of something being true. Because The people who post religiously on here are more aware of the more obvious R+L=J, and are entirely unaware of/ in denial of the much more subtle concept with Tyrion. Thats why you dont see as many threads. What an absolute joke, so indicative of the whole reason it s never discussed to begin with How are people in denial? Martin been killed it when he stated his father named him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 He did not lie if he meant 'father' as 'legal father/adoptive father' there. Surely he would not want to reveal Tyrion's true heritage casually in such a regard when he has concealed this thing much better than Jon's true parentage...Then why not say that Tywin named Tyrion, Rhaella named Dany and Ned named Jon? Ned is as much Jon's legal/adoptive father as you're claiming Tywin was for Tyrion, yet he never calls Ned Jon's father the way he calls Tywin Tyrion's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I understand this argument and see why people interpret it as evidence against AJT. I think Corbon has said that he believed AJT until this SSM and reversed his position almost entirely as a result of this SSM. But to me, I think it makes too much of the point. GRRM knew that rumors about RLJ were running wild at the time he made the statement, so he named Ned by name to avoid creating a dispute of the issue. Assuming ATJ to be true (as I think it is), it is easily explained that GRRM did not think there was much speculation at that time about ATJ, so merely referencing Tywin as Tyrion's father was no big deal--whereas referencing Ned as Jon's father would have started a host of speculation.So why not say, "Tywin, Rhaella, Ned," or even "father, mother, father" and then later, after the reveal, say that he meant legally, not biologically? There were other ways to word it beside "father, mother, Ned" if he wanted it to stay vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Since the effective wording is 'most like', we really don't have to continue this debate. 'Most like' is not a confirmation, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Since the effective wording is 'most like', we really don't have to continue this debate. 'Most like' is not a confirmation, after all.I wouldn't want to continue the debate either if a quote strongly undermined my point.Does anyone ACTUALLY doubt that Tywin, Rhaella and Ned named Tyrion, Dany and Jon, or are you falling back on semantics to manufacture "doubt"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Since the effective wording is 'most like', we really don't have to continue this debate. 'Most like' is not a confirmation, after all. Seeing how he said most like for Dany, I don't see how when he said Tyrion by his father and Jon by Ned exactly, not proven it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Seeing how he said most like for Dany, I don't see how when he said Tyrion by his father and Jon by Ned exactly, not proven it. The fact that people have ever looked to this quote to prove disprove anything has never made sense, and the fact that people are now bringing it back up for the opposite purpose makes even less sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 The fact that people have ever looked to this quote to prove disprove anything has never made sense, and the fact that people are now bringing it back up for the opposite purpose makes even less sense So the author stating Tyrion was named by his father doesn't make sense to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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