Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[Ramsay Gimp]

Didn't he also mention Tyrion was named by his father?

Boom! Thanks for the reminder. That's all the proof I need that Tyrion is Tywin's seed, even if Tywin didn't believe it himself

[Chaircat Meow]

Great post, but I think this part is a stretch. Just because Tywin's offer to resign didn't occur 5 minutes after the tits insult doesn't meant that something else must have happened. Tywin isn't impulsive. I could easily see him stewing over it all night, weighing his options, and then offering his resignation to Aerys the next day

Fair enough. Tywin might have wanted to wait as Aerys was drunk as well.

However, the fact a night separated Aerys's initial insult and Tywin's offer to resign does fit the idea something else happened and that it was the real reason Tywin offered to go. I'm also unsure Aerys had never insulted Joanna before, even when he'd insulted his own wife and envied Tywin. We do know Pycelle couldn't bear to think his hero took another man's 'leavings' so this is the kind of thing he'd never record.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

I apologize if I came off as harsh. But I do feel like I've spun my wheels on this topic for ages. I've read probably hundreds of posts in support of it and not a one of them has altered my belief that this theory is a false lead, no more than my writing has convinced anyone who's already determined that Tyrion must be a Targ.

[Chaircat Meow]

Boom! Thanks for the reminder. That's all the proof I need that Tyrion is Tywin's seed, even if Tywin didn't believe it himself

I seem to recall GrrM said Tyrion was named 'by Tywin' not 'his father.'

[butterbumps!]

TPtwP?

The general assumption in-story that the three heads = three people makes me think that this might not be the case. Also it is one dragon with three heads. "Heads" in this context may be symbolic.

That's exactly what I think is going on, and Martin's given us 3 very clear "facets" (like, faces) of the Targ dynasty that amounts to "one line, divided."

An analysis of the 3 "dragons" would actually make a really good thoughtpiece. This comes up sometimes tangentially in a lot of "will Jon be a Targ king" threads, but I really think it deserves it's own dedicated analysis, because the interplay of these 3 (narratively, but even more so, thematically) is kind of brilliant.

[Consigliere]

I seem to recall GrrM said Tyrion was named 'by Tywin' not 'his father.'

Nah. He said Tyrion was named by his father, Dany by her mother and Jon by Ned.

[Ser Creighton]

In terms of Dany, Aegon and Jon, these are 3 "branches" or "iterations" of "Targs" that are central to the story. There are 3 "Targ" permutations in play. And Tyrion was noted to be "snarling amidst them all" (paraphrased). We're not talking about Bastard offshoot houses, but a far more central interplay of 3 "Targ" representations.

"Snarling" I thought referred to how he's the one character to have made contact with all 3 in an influential manner (well, technically, he hasn't yet influenced Dany yet, but I think we can see that's where it's going).

Ok, and yeah I see where your going. What I was trying to point out is that with the three heads it may not be enough to have Targ or Valyrian blood. That something else is in play there. In terms of the three iterations, I would like to offer an optional one for you to consider.

So dealing with the three from a symbolic perspective, I might suggest Dany, Jon and Bloodraven. I think we can agree all three are central to the story, even more so than Aegon. But they each have certain aspects.

1. Magic something Aegon lacks at least so far.

2. Elements. Dany and her association with Fire, Bloodraven and nature, and Jon with Ice. When I am talking about these elements I don't mean Dany shoots fire from her eyes and Jon is made of ice or Bloodraven is a tree. Ok the last one yeah, but I think you get what I am saying. Like Jon and Ice, Winter Kings, the Wall, the North, the Others, winter roses. These are things that are part of his story.

3. Magic sort of tools, Dany and the dragons (fire) also mentioned as being a sort of sword, Bloodraven the Children, Greensight, the Children. Jon??? It's still early for him, maybe a sword, or maybe it's a defensive form and he has the wall which is magical.

So between those 3 you get red, blue and green, like the waters of the Trident. I just don't want to leave BR out of the mix even if he is old and wooden.

ETA. Even if they do come into conflict as is often true of history, conflicts often end in a unity.

[Chaircat Meow]

Nah. He said Tyrion was named by his father, Dany by her mother and Jon by Ned.

Ah, ok then.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Nah. He said Tyrion was named by his father, Dany by her mother and Jon by Ned.

You are correct. Again, he worded it very specifically and very carefully.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I apologize if I came off as harsh. But I do feel like I've spun my wheels on this topic for ages. I've read probably hundreds of posts in support of it and not a one of them has altered my belief that this theory is a false lead, no more than my writing has convinced anyone who's already determined that Tyrion must be a Targ.

No apology necessary. I just wanted to make my intention clear as it appeared there might have been a misunderstanding. ;)

[Mithras]

Tyrion being named by his father does not exclude the possibility of Gerion being his father. Aerys was miles away but Gerion was there. BTW, Tyrion was named after Tyrion the Tormentor.

[Newstar]

Tyrion being named by his father does not exclude the possibility of Gerion being his father. Aerys was miles away but Gerion was there. BTW, Tyrion was named after Tyrion the Tormentor.

There were a few Tyrions, so I'm not sure how we know which Tyrion it was that Tyrion was named for. It could just be one of those "house names," like Lancel and Tommen. It was Tyrion II who was the Tormentor.

It's interesting that Aerys mocked Joanna's breasts in front of the court but apparently referred to her as a "fair flower" upon hearing of her death. Was the breast jab a Westeros form of negging?

[Lord Varys]

And would Gerion name his son after Tyrion the Tormentor? No. Would Tywin allow Gerion to have any say in the matter of the naming of Joanna's son - which he, presumably, assumed was his? No.

But why the hell are we even discussing this SSM at all here? If Tywin was not Tyrion's biological father, GRRM would not reveal that in a question like that.

Rhaenys,

in one of the threads is posting and dropping hints. Sorry, I can't remember. Hours, days, postings and threads are a blurring mess right now. But I'm not making this up.

[butterbumps!]

Ok, and yeah I see where your going. What I was trying to point out is that with the three heads it may not be enough to have Targ or Valyrian blood. That something else is in play there. In terms of the three iterations, I would like to offer an optional one for you to consider.

So dealing with the three from a symbolic perspective, I might suggest Dany, Jon and Bloodraven. I think we can agree all three are central to the story, even more so than Aegon. But they each have certain aspects.

1. Magic something Aegon lacks at least so far.

2. Elements. Dany and her association with Fire, Bloodraven and nature, and Jon with Ice. When I am talking about these elements I don't mean Dany shoots fire from her eyes and Jon is made of ice or Bloodraven is a tree. Ok the last one yeah, but I think you get what I am saying. Like Jon and Ice, Winter Kings, the Wall, the North, the Others, winter roses. These are things that are part of his story.

3. Magic sort of tools, Dany and the dragons (fire) also mentioned as being a sort of sword, Bloodraven the Children, Greensight, the Children. Jon??? It's still early for him, maybe a sword, or maybe it's a defensive form and he has the wall which is magical.

So between those 3 you get red, blue and green, like the waters of the Trident. I just don't want to leave BR out of the mix even if he is old and wooden.

ETA. Even if they do come into conflict as is often true of history, conflicts often end in a unity.

I don't think magical ability is a pre-requisite in this.

Aegon and Dany are the two Targ "heads" to people in-universe. Jon is the other lead Targ to readers. Bloodraven and Aemon might qualify as the "old dragons" per Moqorro's "dragons young and old (para.)" speech to Tyrion.

ETA: Jon is not "ice." Yes, Jon of of the North, but he represents balance/ reform/ mediation in every facet of his being, from his policies to the gods he worships (the old gods =/= ice). His wolf is a wierwood avatar. He's not an ice extreme.

[Wmarshal]

And would Gerion name his son after Tyrion the Tormentor? No. Would Tywin allow Gerion to have any say in the matter of the naming of Joanna's son - which he, presumably, assumed was his? No.

But why the hell are we even discussing this SSM at all here? If Tywin was not Tyrion's biological father, GRRM would not reveal that in a question like that.

Rhaenys,

in one of the threads is posting and dropping hints. Sorry, I can't remember. Hours, days, postings and threads are a blurring mess right now. But I'm not making this up.

If Tyrion wasn't Tywin's son, why on earth would he mention him at all? Why would he lie?

[Consigliere]

But why the hell are we even discussing this SSM at all here? If Tywin was not Tyrion's biological father, GRRM would not reveal that in a question like that.

That is a huge assumption on your part. Also the wording in that SSM is telling. If GRRM didn't want to reveal anything he could have simply said that Dany was named by Rhaella, Tyrion by Tywin and Jon by Ned.

[Lord Varys]

He did not lie if he meant 'father' as 'legal father/adoptive father' there. Surely he would not want to reveal Tyrion's true heritage casually in such a regard when he has concealed this thing much better than Jon's true parentage...

[Wmarshal]

He did not lie if he meant 'father' as 'legal father/adoptive father' there. Surely he would not want to reveal Tyrion's true heritage casually in such a regard when he has concealed this thing much better than Jon's true parentage...

Why? He could have easily stated they were named by father mother then, Ned was more a father to Jon then Tywin ever was to Tywin, he is using Tyrion's and Dany's naming as away to differ from Jon's naming.

[butterbumps!]

He did not lie if he meant 'father' as 'legal father/adoptive father' there. Surely he would not want to reveal Tyrion's true heritage casually in such a regard when he has concealed this thing much better than Jon's true parentage...

So Martin would have specified Tyrion's "legal adoptive father" by saying "Tyrion was named by his father," but made a point of not doing the same for Ned, who was Jon's "legal adoptive father"?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys,

in one of the threads is posting and dropping hints. Sorry, I can't remember. Hours, days, postings and threads are a blurring mess right now. But I'm not making this up.

Can you remember anything on the topic of the thread, or the wording used, or when he posted this? Then I got something to do a google-search with.. :)

I believe you, but I'd really like to see the post ;)