Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[mezmerised]

You are answering a different question. You are answering the question of why you think the story works better if Tyrion is Tywin's real son. I get that -- but my question is different. My question is ASSUMING A+J=t is true and has always been intended to be true from the very beginning of the story (and has to be true for later events to work), what should GRRM have done differently?

-he should have given us a credible reason why Tywin didn't send Tyrion to the Citadel.

Before people always argued that Tywin didn't want a Lannister to serve another house but now that Tywin has legitimate reason to believe (or at least wonder whether) Tyrion is not his son I really don't get why he kept him around. Tyrion was pretty much a living reminder of either Joanna's rape or infidelity. As long as he's there, acknowledged as part of the Lannister family, Tywin always lives with the danger of potentially losing his family seat to Aerys' bastard. Especially after Jaime became a KG this was a very real, problematic issue.

-he should have avoided the Tyrion/Tywin confrontation about CR. Before it was an amazing, poignant scene because Tyrion was right and Tywin acted like a massive asshole. Now Tyrion looks a bit like Joff when he proclaimed that his father (Robert) fought a war while the Lannisters cowered in fear of the Mad King. He thinks he is making a great point but everyone else in the room (and the reader) knows better. And even more infuriatingly Tywin now looks like the one who is not only suffering in silence but also makes the right decision in denying Tyrion the Rock.

-the fact that Tyrion killed his 'father' while completely not understanding what was going on or that his whole life is a complete lie also becomes a bit weird now

-and instead of letting Tyrion talk about his childhood dreams involving dragons he should have rather given him an actual dragon dream.

I mean we have his POV, magic is getting stronger, Dany and most of the Starks all have dragon and wolf dreams. Why not Tyrion? Especially if he had dreamed in ACoK about dragons that looked suspiciously similar to Dany's three, I think that could have actually been kind of cool. At the very least it would have left us guessing and wondering about some hidden Targ relative in the Lannister family tree. But just dreaming about dragons as a child is really not a particularly great clue: 1) It's kind of what children do especially kids who like to read a lot about dragonlore and 2)Tyrion even explains where his particular fascination with dragons came from.

.

[Maia]

Well, on that I heartily agree. LOL. I will say, turning Tywin Lannister into a sort of strange stoic bitter victim is weirdly compelling,

Well, just because Tywin may have also been a victim doesn't mean that he wasn't a victimizer too. They were "2 victims who couldn't connect" because of his abuse, after all.

And it isn't like we weren't outright told about Tywin having been a victim in the previous books, it is just that most of the readers wholly bought into Tyrion's view of him as some kind of implacable deity and dismissed all the evidence to the contrary ;).

and his failure to understand each of them, despite his obsession with legacy, is the real cause of his downfall and death, crossbow aside. I like that story better.

But that is still very much the case. Well, apart from legacy stuff - that was show-only stuff. He had lofty ambitions for his twins and for House Lannister, sure, but nothing like that. _Tyrion_ was the one who had been worried about what historians would write about him.

-he should have given us a credible reason why Tywin didn't send Tyrion to the Citadel

See, GRRM should have given us the reason for it anyway. Because as a dwarf, Tyrion really shouldn't have been allowed to inherit. Yes, he himself has a combination of intelligence, charm and strong will to succeed regardless, but there is a pretty high possibility that some of his kids would also be dwarfs. See Penny's family. And House Lannister couldn't have weathered that.

So, even if Tywin had liked Tyrion and had been sure of being his father, he really should have sent him to the Citadel or made him a septon. There is zero evidence that Tywin was against a Lannister being in service to somebody else, BTW. That was Randyll Tarly. Not to mention that Tywin probably could have pulled some strings to ensure that Tyrion came back to serve House Lannister.

And we know from ADwD that Tyrion even wanted to join the Faith and Tywin didn't object. But it makes zero sense that Tywin didn't force him to follow through after Tyrion changed his mind.

-he should have avoided the Tyrion/Tywin confrontation about CR. Before it was an amazing, poignant scene because Tyrion was right and Tywin acted like a massive asshole.

I really don't think that Tywin being a cardboard, shallow asshole was ever particularly interesting. IMHO, it is much more believable and human if they both had their points and if Tywin's malice towards Tyrion partly came from great pain.

-the fact that Tyrion killed his 'father' while completely not understanding what was going on or that his whole life is a complete lie also becomes a bit weird now

Well, you know, it changes nothing about Tywin's abuse. It doesn't make it in any way OK, particularly since Tywin had 3 societally approved options to get rid of Tyrion, but chose to keep and torment him instead. Tywin himself had shaped Tyrion into his doom.

-and instead of letting Tyrion talk about his childhood dreams involving dragons he should have rather given him an actual dragon dream.

That would have been too obvious.

[Dofs]

Wow--we just see things very differently. Those were great plot developments and I would hate for them to be lost just because GRRM did not want to upset certain readers -- retroactively -- when the reveal occurs.

As far as Tywin being Tyrion's father--Tyrion considered Tywin to be his father his whole life and tried to be like him, etc. Learning Aerys is the bio-dad does not undo that influence or that relationship. It happened and Tywin is dead, so nothing more can come of it--other than its emotional effects on Tyrion which become even more complex after the reveal.

Well, it's my opinion. For me those plot developments would stop being so great if they would stop having any basis. It's just that for me, Tyrion as Tywin's son is a much, much better story than Tyrion as Aerys' son.

I also think that it's silly to pretend that Tywin's and Tyrion's relationship will not change. It will. Just some people don't mind that and some do.

[Jasta11]

It does put Aerys and Tywin's history in perspective. Aerys already acted like an asshole towards his Hand way before going mad, and the King was actually not a good king pretty much right from the start, what with those stupid ideas he had (the one about a second Wall, what with the Watch not even able to man the existing one properly, made me :rofl: ). While the Maester may very well have exagerated to get browny points with his grandson, it does seem like Tywin shouldered the responsibility of the entire realm for a long time, all the while Aerys was pestering him and actually doing jack shit. That would tire anyone.

Now, I'm never going to see Tywin as a victim, guy's a monster all the way, but him becoming a very bitter man makes sense in light of these events. As is his obsession with replacing the Targaryen dynasty with, well, his own.

Also, a few tidbits I found interesting; Tywin actually pulled back several of Aegon V's reforms and gave the Lords more power, as if anyone ever doubted Westeros was a feudal monarchy and not an absolute one. More interesting, while several people thought Varys was an important component of Aerys's madness, the Cockless Wonder arrives pretty late in the story, after the Defiance of Duskendale, and at this point Aerys is bonkers, everyone knows it, and the King already amuses himself by torturing and burning people for the lulz. So it really doesn't seem like Varys is actually responsible for that much beyond providing Aerys a rock-solid web of spies. The Mad King didn't need the eunuch's whispers to be mad.

And, it's pretty obvious who the book was written for in-universe. I was pretty disgusted when the Maester theorized that Elia might have been killed on Aerys's order, or worse that she actually killed her kids herself before suiciding.

[Ramsay Gimp]

More interesting, while several people thought Varys was an important component of Aerys's madness, the Cockless Wonder arrives pretty late in the story, after the Defiance of Duskendale, and at this point Aerys is bonkers, everyone knows it, and the King already amuses himself by torturing and burning people for the lulz. So it really doesn't seem like Varys is actually responsible for that much beyond providing Aerys a rock-solid web of spies. The Mad King didn't need the eunuch's whispers to be mad.

Good point. Barristan must not have the best memory if he thinks "the rot in Aerys' reign began with Varys"

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Good point. Barristan must not have the best memory if he thinks "the rot in Aerys' reign began with Varys"

That or Barristan rather blaming everything on him. After all, eunuchs are good scapegoats: they have no honour and stuff like that.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It does put Aerys and Tywin's history in perspective. Aerys already acted like an asshole towards his Hand way before going mad, and the King was actually not a good king pretty much right from the start, what with those stupid ideas he had (the one about a second Wall, what with the Watch not even able to man the existing one properly, made me :rofl: ). While the Maester may very well have exagerated to get browny points with his grandson, it does seem like Tywin shouldered the responsibility of the entire realm for a long time, all the while Aerys was pestering him and actually doing jack shit. That would tire anyone.

Now, I'm never going to see Tywin as a victim, guy's a monster all the way, but him becoming a very bitter man makes sense in light of these events. As is his obsession with replacing the Targaryen dynasty with, well, his own.

Also, a few tidbits I found interesting; Tywin actually pulled back several of Aegon V's reforms and gave the Lords more power, as if anyone ever doubted Westeros was a feudal monarchy and not an absolute one. More interesting, while several people thought Varys was an important component of Aerys's madness, the Cockless Wonder arrives pretty late in the story, after the Defiance of Duskendale, and at this point Aerys is bonkers, everyone knows it, and the King already amuses himself by torturing and burning people for the lulz. So it really doesn't seem like Varys is actually responsible for that much beyond providing Aerys a rock-solid web of spies. The Mad King didn't need the eunuch's whispers to be mad.

And, it's pretty obvious who the book was written for in-universe. I was pretty disgusted when the Maester theorized that Elia might have been killed on Aerys's order, or worse that she actually killed her kids herself before suiciding.

Yes! I am vindicated in my belief that Varys' hiring indicated how far gone Aery's was in the first place!

It's pretty obvious that the maester writing that means to absolve both Robert and Lord Tywin for any wrongdoing there. I tell you true, honest, unbiased journalism in Westeros disappeared with the dragons!

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

I also think that it's silly to pretend that Tywin's and Tyrion's relationship will not change. It will. Just some people don't mind that and some do.

It isn't that I don't think the relationship will change. I do think it will change it's just that I think the relationship between the two characters becomes more complex with this reveal.

The big thing I disagree with is the idea that this ruins the arc of either Tywin or Tyrion. I don't think the blood factor makes the importance of their relationship go away nor do I agree that it suddenly turns Tywin into a victim who was somehow justified in his vile treatment of Tyrion and other people.

Again, it seems like the objections to the theory are a lot more about personal preference and people who just don't like the idea of Tyrion not being Tywin's son than about it being about the evidence not being there.

With each book we seem to be getting more and more hints and I have a hard time believing that there would be all of this build up of hints about Tyrion being a bastard Targaryen only to have no pay off.

[UnmaskedLurker]

-he should have given us a credible reason why Tywin didn't send Tyrion to the Citadel.

Before people always argued that Tywin didn't want a Lannister to serve another house but now that Tywin has legitimate reason to believe (or at least wonder whether) Tyrion is not his son I really don't get why he kept him around. Tyrion was pretty much a living reminder of either Joanna's rape or infidelity. As long as he's there, acknowledged as part of the Lannister family, Tywin always lives with the danger of potentially losing his family seat to Aerys' bastard. Especially after Jaime became a KG this was a very real, problematic issue.

-he should have avoided the Tyrion/Tywin confrontation about CR. Before it was an amazing, poignant scene because Tyrion was right and Tywin acted like a massive asshole. Now Tyrion looks a bit like Joff when he proclaimed that his father (Robert) fought a war while the Lannisters cowered in fear of the Mad King. He thinks he is making a great point but everyone else in the room (and the reader) knows better. And even more infuriatingly Tywin now looks like the one who is not only suffering in silence but also makes the right decision in denying Tyrion the Rock.

-the fact that Tyrion killed his 'father' while completely not understanding what was going on or that his whole life is a complete lie also becomes a bit weird now

-and instead of letting Tyrion talk about his childhood dreams involving dragons he should have rather given him an actual dragon dream.

I mean we have his POV, magic is getting stronger, Dany and most of the Starks all have dragon and wolf dreams. Why not Tyrion? Especially if he had dreamed in ACoK about dragons that looked suspiciously similar to Dany's three, I think that could have actually been kind of cool. At the very least it would have left us guessing and wondering about some hidden Targ relative in the Lannister family tree. But just dreaming about dragons as a child is really not a particularly great clue: 1) It's kind of what children do especially kids who like to read a lot about dragonlore and 2)Tyrion even explains where his particular fascination with dragons came from.

.

Maia gave a pretty good response and I basically agree with it. I will also note that some of your complaints are things that GRRM would have a hard time doing anything about simply because the plot demanded it. If Tyrion is sent to the Citadel, the book does not work. Maybe GRRM should have provided a better reason, but maybe we will get that reason later. But it just would ruin what Tyrion was needed to do in the book. I disagree about CR. We knew Tywin had what for that society was a valid reason--as pointed out by Maia--but now we know he had another reason. I don't see how losing that fight from the story altogether would make the story better. And yes, now Tyrion looks more like Joffrey in his instance for CR--so what? How does that mean GRRM should have eliminated that fight--Tyrion would not be Tyrion unless he fought for CR. Tyrion finding out he did not kill his real father adds a crazy symmetry because he and Jaime each killed the other's father. And Tyrion still killed the man he believed to be his father. But again--how is the story better if GRRM does not have Tyrion kill Tywin. Maia is 100% correct about the dragon dreams--giving Tyrion "true" dragon dreams gives away the mystery way too early.

[mezmerised]

See, GRRM should have given us the reason for it anyway. Because as a dwarf, Tyrion really shouldn't have been allowed to inherit. Yes, he himself has a combination of intelligence, charm and strong will to succeed regardless, but there is a pretty high possibility that some of his kids would also be dwarfs. See Penny's family. And House Lannister couldn't have weathered that.

So, even if Tywin had liked Tyrion and had been sure of being his father, he really should have sent him to the Citadel or made him a septon. There is zero evidence that Tywin was against a Lannister being in service to somebody else, BTW. That was Randyll Tarly. Not to mention that Tywin probably could have pulled some strings to ensure that Tyrion came back to serve House Lannister.

And we know from ADwD that Tyrion even wanted to join the Faith and Tywin didn't object. But it makes zero sense that Tywin didn't force him to follow through after Tyrion changed his mind.

It changes from 'Sending Tyrion to the Citadel would have been a good solution for everyone involved' into 'The fact that Tyrion wasn't sent to the Citadel is absolutely unexplainable and out of character for Tywin Lannister'. And unexplainable things that happen in a fictional story = it had to happen or the plot wouldn't work.

But apart from obvious plot hole being obvious I personally think Tyrion as Lord of CR could have worked. Obviously getting Jaime out of the KG would have been the ideal and preferable solution (and what Tywin, Kevan & important Westermen Lords clearly believed would eventually happen) but I think Tyrion could have been successful as Lord of CR if Jaime backed him in front of the Westerland nobles and took over all the military aspects of the Lordship. I think Jaime inheriting Warden of the West for example was already taken for granted by everyone in the realm (at least according to Ned and Robert).

Tyrion would be good at the administrative part and everything involving the game because he enjoys that and is naturally talented for it. And finally I'm not sure the Westerosi think much about the genetics involved in disabilities. After all Tyrion's dwarfism was seen as the Gods punishment for Tywin's arrogance.

I really don't think that Tywin being a cardboard, shallow asshole was ever particularly interesting. IMHO, it is much more believable and human if they both had their points and if Tywin's malice towards Tyrion partly came from great pain.

I actually don't see Tywin as an evil cardboard villain either. And I already believed that his interactions with Tyrion and the abuse towards him came in part from a place of pain. I just feel that with the new revelation Tywin's pain somehow rocketed up to almost ridiculous levels.

And whereas before I understood their dynamic but was firmly Team Tyrion in this situation, now I'm kind of Team Nobody while feeling a little sad for Tywin and everything he had to endure in his life.

Well, you know, it changes nothing about Tywin's abuse. It doesn't make it in any way OK, particularly since Tywin had 3 societally approved options to get rid of Tyrion, but chose to keep and torment him instead. Tywin himself had shaped Tyrion into his doom.

I believe Tyrion will feel terribly guilty once he realizes Tywin was not his father (and that he always knew/suspected it while interacting with Tyrion). He will replay every argument they ever had in his mind and wonder if he acted right or should have acted differently.

He will of course still remember that Tywin abused him and he'll obviously remember what he did to Tysha but IMO he will feel worse about the murder now than when he thought he was a kinslayer.

That would have been too obvious.

Really? Tyrion waking up one morning in Clash remembering a dream he had about three dragons and wondering that these dreams he used to have as a child are back will make it too obvious that he is Aerys' bastard son?

[Da_milkman]

Yes, there are things that I think GRRM should have done differently for the reveal to not kill the relationship. Like not make such a major point of Tywin not realizing that Tyrion is the son most like him.

People keep on saying that Tyrion is very much like Tywin. Other than both of them being smart what similarities do they really have?

[Boarsbane]

People keep on saying that Tyrion is very much like Tywin. Other than both of them being smart what similarities do they really have?

Vindictive and proud

[The Wolves]

I think that's the intention, but not necessarily the accurate depiction. I mean, how do we know that Aerys' "humiliations" were nothing but deservingly putting him in his place?

Because, despite his madness, I think one of the smartest things Aerys did was not allowing Tywin to become part of the royal family at all. Tywin is incredibly ambitious and not in a positive way. Despite the obvious bias in the book, is still mentioned his comment about how he was ready to let Aerys to get killed and crown Rhaegar. He told Rhaegar that, to his face, when Rhaegar was still in relative good terms with his father. Also, he took Cersei to court with the obvious intention to wait for Elia to die and be replaced. And Rhaegar did care about his wife. How do we know he got eventually fed up with Tywin Lannister and was not only secretly relieved he didn't marry his daughter but could have been eventually killed if he had become an inconvenience for Tywin? Once Cersei had a child of Rhaegar, he didn't need the Prince anymore.

So much word.

Aerys is many things but this he was smart in, he was right in not marrying his blood to such monsters.

Marrying his family with the Lannisters would have not been good for the Targaryens look what happened to the Baratheons(Lol). Denying Tywin is the greatest thing Aerys ever did.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Tyrion as a bastard to me does lose the texture of the Tywin/Tyrion relationship, it robs it of it's epic tragedy, which was that Tyrion was Tywin's "true" son, he was his intellectual heir, he was the son who absorbed and understood and was capable intellectually of being the next Tywin Lannister, but because of his pride and prejudice, he could never see beyond Tyrion's dwarfism. That is part of Tywin's tragedy in how he misunderstands his children and thus, they destroy his legacy. He never sees them for what they are, he's blind, he's blind to Tyrion's good qualities because of his pride. That's tragic.

Tyrion as the son of Aerys makes Tywin's hatred of him perfectly reasonable. He's the living proof of either his wife's rape or her infidelity. Tywin had nothing to do with the act of procreation that caused her death, it makes his hostility reasonable, instead of bat shit insane for hating your OWN SON for being born. He certainly should not give him Casterly Rock, he's a bastard. And it turns out, he intuitively was right to distrust Tyrion all along, since he murders him with a crossbow.

But, GRRM has lost his way on more than this, however that is another discussion.

This is exactly why:

1. I don't think Tyrion is Aerys' son but

2. If he is, it's an awful literary choice.

[chrisdaw]

Good point. Barristan must not have the best memory if he thinks "the rot in Aerys' reign began with Varys"

It never really fit.

[PhoenixfromAshes]

The problem lies with Tyrion being Aerys' son. I think that would destroy Tywin as a character.

It will make Tywin a martyr, forced to raise his enemy's bastard as his own, humiliated and cuckolded.

Doesn't fit with his character at all, and honestly he won't like that image of him either.

[Ser Creighton]

This is exactly why:

1. I don't think Tyrion is Aerys' son but

2. If he is, it's an awful literary choice.

Just curious but how is it an awful literary choice? Seriously? For me it's really no different than Ned and Jon. Who's Jon real father was does not effect who Ned was to him. Granted Ned Stark was a much better parent than Tywin. But it's the same idea it would not change who Tywin was to Tyrion or everything that happened between them. In fact if true Dany, Jon, and Tyrion never knew either of their birth parents and were all raised by a relative.

[Mithras]

Except the dwarfism, every reason why Tywin hated Tyrion stands true for Gerion Lannister too. Tywin should have hated him as well. I think he seduced Joanna and he is the real father of Tyrion. Unlike the A+J thing (which might go unproven in the text), this will be seen when Gerion will bump into Dany as the Corsair King.

[mezmerised]

Vindictive and proud

Also smart enough to know how to effectively hit/destroy an enemy and (possibly*) cruel enough to actually go through with it.

Cersei isn't smart enough and Jaime isn't particularly cruel/vindictive.

*depends on who you ask. Genna at least seems to think so

Maia gave a pretty good response and I basically agree with it. I will also note that some of your complaints are things that GRRM would have a hard time doing anything about simply because the plot demanded it. If Tyrion is sent to the Citadel, the book does not work. Maybe GRRM should have provided a better reason, but maybe we will get that reason later. But it just would ruin what Tyrion was needed to do in the book. I disagree about CR. We knew Tywin had what for that society was a valid reason--as pointed out by Maia--but now we know he had another reason. I don't see how losing that fight from the story altogether would make the story better. And yes, now Tyrion looks more like Joffrey in his instance for CR--so what? How does that mean GRRM should have eliminated that fight--Tyrion would not be Tyrion unless he fought for CR. Tyrion finding out he did not kill his real father adds a crazy symmetry because he and Jaime each killed the other's father. And Tyrion still killed the man he believed to be his father. But again--how is the story better if GRRM does not have Tyrion kill Tywin. Maia is 100% correct about the dragon dreams--giving Tyrion "true" dragon dreams gives away the mystery way too early.

I agree that it would be difficult or impossible but that just shows to me that A+J=T doesn't really work without creating major plot holes in the already existing story.

The idea that Tywin Lannister a) decides to let a boy that he suspects to be Aerys' son and the possible product of the rape of his beloved wife whose birth then led to her death just live in CR as a Lannister without b )even thinking about taking any precautions that this kid might one day inherit his family seat just seems completely bizarre to me.

And radically changing Tywin's character also changes the whole Lannister family dynamics.

I really love them as a family because despite the fact that they are so dysfunctional and fucked up their interactions always seemed believable to me. They actually made sense a group of people.

With the Baratheons for example I felt as if the dysfunctionality was only there to explain away plot holes at the beginning of the story (Why didn't Robert make Stannis Hand or at least WotE? Why didn't Stannis warn Robert that his life was in danger? Why didn't Renly and Stannis work together to defeat the Lannisters? Why do they all hate each other?!?)

It didn't bother me particularly much as far as the story is concerned - I just kind of went along with it - but the weird (non)interaction between the brothers just never made any sense to me and I think that's one of the reasons why I'm not all that invested in any of them even as single characters.

Now, if A+J=T is true, GRRM kind of ruins the Lannisters IMO by creating implausible scenarios for them as well. At first it looks like it only affects Tywin and Tyrion, but it actually also makes no sense that Tywin never mentions any of this to Jaime. That would be kind of an important point to mention when he tries to get him to leave the KG, wouldn't it?

And what about Kevan and Genna? Was Tywin really able to pretend Tyrion was his son - even directly after the birth and Joanna's death which would have been a major shock for him- without them noticing anything? And why again would he even try to?

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is exactly why:

1. I don't think Tyrion is Aerys' son but

2. If he is, it's an awful literary choice.

I know you have been somewhat outspoken against A+J=T for a long time. But I am interested in why you are so strong in your feeling that it would be an awful literary choice. Keep in mind that if A+J=T, then it was planned from the beginning. GRRM is not making these plot points up as he goes along. He had an outline about 20 years ago for the endgame, and he has said he is sticking to it. So if A+J=T, it will be revealed in a way that shows why it was absolutely necessary to the plot.

The theory that I favor is that Tyrion is part of the prophecy that the dragon must have three heads. To win the Battle for the Dawn, three separate characters--each with a Targ parent--have been foreseen to come together as a team to win the big battle. That is the story that I think GRRM is telling. To keep the mystery of who are the three heads, of the three, he only wanted one to be obviously Targ--Dany. Jon is the Prince that was Promised--the boy raised as a bastard who is really the legitimate son of Rhaegar and heir to the Targ throne. Tyrion is the Targ bastard--raised as the legitimate son of a High Lord who is really the bastard son of the mad King. It makes perfect literary sense.

And as to the supposed fact that it "ruins the relationship" between Tywin and Tyrion, I will say again what I have said over and over again--what else could GRRM have done? Would the readers really want to lose the great battle between Tywin and Tyrion just so that when Tyrion is revealed as a Targ bastard, that relationship won't be "ruined"? Or are you simply saying if I am right about the story GRRM is really telling, that it is not a very good story--that he should have told a different story that did not require Tyrion to be a Targ bastard? If that is your argument, I say wait and see how GRRM plays the endgame and then make up your mind.