Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[Ramsay Gimp]

I think that's the intention, but not necessarily the accurate depiction. I mean, how do we know that Aerys' "humiliations" were nothing but deservingly putting him in his place?

Because, despite his madness, I think one of the smartest things Aerys did was not allowing Tywin to become part of the royal family at all. Tywin is incredibly ambitious and not in a positive way. Despite the obvious bias in the book, is still mentioned his comment about how he was ready to let Aerys to get killed and crown Rhaegar. He told Rhaegar that, to his face, when Rhaegar was still in relative good terms with his father. Also, he took Cersei to court with the obvious intention to wait for Elia to die and be replaced. And Rhaegar did care about his wife. How do we know he got eventually fed up with Tywin Lannister and was not only secretly relieved he didn't marry his daughter but could have been eventually killed if he had become an inconvenience for Tywin? Once Cersei had a child of Rhaegar, he didn't need the Prince anymore.

I have a hard time seeing how making a joke about Joanna's tits in front of the whole court was "deservedly putting Tywin in his place." Or refusing to let Tywin resign, basically forcing him to run the kingdom while enduring these insults. Or his comments after Tyrion's birth/Joanna's death.

As for the Duskendale "better King" remark, Tywin was right. This was after it had become clear what a asshole/wackjob Aerys was. The realm would have been much better served if Aerys had died that day and Rhaegar took the throne

If you want Tywin to always be the bad guy, even compared to Aerys, I guess you can find ways to do that.

[Faydra]

I have a hard time seeing how making a joke about Joanna's tits in front of the whole court was "deservedly putting Tywin in his place." Or refusing to let Tywin resign, basically forcing him to run the kingdom while enduring these insults.

I have doubts that JCRB refered to this particular case. By bringing this up you made it look as if the worst thing about insulting Joanna is the impact the said insult had on Tywin.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

So, I'm still with..other than GRRM wanting Targaryen symmetry in the three main characters...I do not see the benefit of this.

In addition to the points made by others I'm guessing that it would also get Tyrion off of the hook for kinslaying unless cousins count.

I personally like the idea of Jaime and Tyrion each being responsible for killing the other's father.

Now that I think about it, when Joanna comes to Jaime in Jaime's dream or whatever it was and she talks about what Tywin wanted for his children, she doesn't mention Tyrion at all, does she?

Tyrion as the son of Aerys makes Tywin's hatred of him perfectly reasonable. He's the living proof of either his wife's rape or her infidelity. Tywin had nothing to do with the act of procreation that caused her death, it makes his hostility reasonable, instead of bat shit insane for hating your OWN SON for being born. He certainly should not give him Casterly Rock, he's a bastard. And it turns out, he intuitively was right to distrust Tyrion all along, since he murders him with a crossbow.

I think a key part of this might be Tywin never knowing for sure. Not until his death scene anyway.

I can see how it makes him more sympathetic or understandable on some level (I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing) but he's also always going to be that guy who orchestrated gang rape and murder among other horrible things. None of that is going to go away if Tyrion's father turns out to be Aerys.

And then, never mind, that I have apparently been totally trolled for 5 books and instead of a story about Starks, Lannisters and Targaryens, it's really a story about Targaryens. Ugh.

I feel like the three heads being Jon, Tyrion, and Dany is a way for each of those three houses to have a dragon in a way. Tyrion is still half Lannister, he wants Casterly Rock, and he was raised by the Lannisters. Jon is half Targaryen but still comes across as a Stark since he is one and he was raised by them.

Tyrion being Dany's half brother and Tyrion geting Viserion named after Dany's brother just makes sense to me. Jon and Rhaegal makes sense too.

fAegon doesn't fit as well IMO.

[UnmaskedLurker]

fAegon doesn't fit as well IMO.

He fits in perfectly as the mummers dragon. He will get Rhaegal because he is pretending to be Rhaegar's son. Dany, the slayer of lies, will defeat him in battle and perhaps Drogon eats him. And then Rheagal takes off--eventually to be united with Jon. It makes perfect sense to me (I hope I am right).

[Cas Stark]

I think that's the intention, but not necessarily the accurate depiction. I mean, how do we know that Aerys' "humiliations" were nothing but deservingly putting him in his place?

Because, despite his madness, I think one of the smartest things Aerys did was not allowing Tywin to become part of the royal family at all. Tywin is incredibly ambitious and not in a positive way. Despite the obvious bias in the book, is still mentioned his comment about how he was ready to let Aerys to get killed and crown Rhaegar. He told Rhaegar that, to his face, when Rhaegar was still in relative good terms with his father. Also, he took Cersei to court with the obvious intention to wait for Elia to die and be replaced. And Rhaegar did care about his wife. How do we know he got eventually fed up with Tywin Lannister and was not only secretly relieved he didn't marry his daughter but could have been eventually killed if he had become an inconvenience for Tywin? Once Cersei had a child of Rhaegar, he didn't need the Prince anymore.

Well, I kind of hate saying this, but Tywin would have been right.

Aerys burned people alive for fun and then, when push came to shove was going to burn the entire city down and thought he was going to turn into a dragon. He was nuts. Not fit to be king.

[Ingelheim]

The problem lies with Tyrion being Aerys' son. I think that would destroy Tywin as a character.

[Cas Stark]

The problem lies with Tyrion being Aerys' son. I think that would destroy Tywin as a character.

It sorta turns him into a put upon sad sack victim, who had all good reasons to be bitter and mean and go overboard about family honor. I know GRRM likes to turn people's perceptions about characters around....but I liked the straight up ruthlessly efficient but blind to his own children Greek tragedy feel of his character.

[Boarsbane]

I have doubts that JCRB refered to this particular case. By bringing this up you made it look as if the worst thing about insulting Joanna is the impact the said insult had on Tywin.

Aerys no doubt said it to offend Tywin, it seems Aerys was a dick to Tywin out of petty jealousy and probably saw it as "putting him in his place", but not because Tywin was deserving off Aerys scorn but because Aerys felt threatened by Tywin's power and was just an all around douchebag. You'd think he'd have a little gratitude to the guy who ruled his realm while Aerys made boasts he couldn't possibly hope to achieve and slept around.

[UnmaskedLurker]

It sorta turns him into a put upon sad sack victim, who had all good reasons to be bitter and mean and go overboard about family honor. I know GRRM likes to turn people's perceptions about characters around....but I liked the straight up ruthlessly efficient but blind to his own children Greek tragedy feel of his character.

Moreover, GRRM likes characters who are more three dimensional. Tywin is neither just a sad sack nor ruthlessly efficient character. He is a bit of both. Aerys did really bad things to him--but taking it out on Tyrion is still not justified. This new information may help to make Tywin's feelings toward Tyrion more understandable--but in no way do these actions become more justified.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I have doubts that JCRB refered to this particular case. By bringing this up you made it look as if the worst thing about insulting Joanna is the impact the said insult had on Tywin.

JCRB's comments made it seem like he thought Aerys was in the right. Which I found ridiculous. Even if Tywin overstepped and got too big and proud, Aerys handled it in the worst possible way. Worried about Tywin's power? Then send him packing! Don't force him to stay in King's Landing while insulting (and possibly assaulting) his wife, mocking him relentlessly to your cronies, depriving him of his firstborn son, etc.

You can hate Tywin without resorting to apologetics for King Scab.

[LordBloodraven]

The problem lies with Tyrion being Aerys' son. I think that would destroy Tywin as a character.

I think so too. It will kill Tyrion's arc in ASOIAF.

[Amy Walker Gore]

The earlier conversation whether Joanna was willing or not. During the middle ages, many families took it as an honor to have their wives and daughters to be mistresses of kings. Tyrion would have fallen under the category of someone to believe it was an honor and another way to tie the two families together. He would have believed that a strong tie like that would ensure Cersi or Jamie marrying a Targarean Prince or Princess. It would not have mattered what Joanna wanted or not. She probably would not have to worry if the king would kill her for saying no, it would have been her family. In the middle ages, the after the king got tired of the woman and moved on , she would have been expected to join a convent for the rest of her life, and leave her money and perks to her husband or father. It was a sad life, but it was the way it worked. Lots of stories of the mistresses of the Kings of England to read up on.

Any ways, Joanna would have more then likely gone and slept with the king willingly , but not of her own free will likely. Also, some are saying because the king humiliated her publicly, she would have never gone willingly to his bed, but if he commanded it ( cause he was king and he was crazy and she was beautiful), she would have gone. It doesn't seem like the started up an affair again, he was probably disappointed because she wasn't young still, but it does seem like something did happen. Enough to make Tyrion question who the father was.

[mezmerised]

Not have Tyrion kill Tywin for a start, put more hints into the books that a normal, non obsessive reader would pick up....but then, I am never going to like this outcome, I am never going to like Jon, Dany and Tyrion ALL being Targaryens, two of them secret bastards, the three main characters are all from the same family...two secret princes and their cousin the blonde beautiful princess?.....how is that not a ridiculous cliche? and then, what the fuck is the point of Aegon? fake or real? It makes a mess of everything and, again, given my view on the last two books, I don't have high confidence GRRM can write his way out of that.

And then, never mind, that I have apparently been totally trolled for 5 books and instead of a story about Starks, Lannisters and Targaryens, it's really a story about Targaryens. Ugh.

I agree! (even though I really do like AFFC + ADWD)

The important thing about Tyrion as a character was that he was part of the realpolitiks Game part of the books but was also clearly going to join the magical Song storyline. He's friends with Jon, he actually visited the Wall, he's trying to meet up with Dany, he knows everything there is to know about dragons. And I thought there was a good chance that he might become a dragonrider by using his wits and dragonlore knowledge to bond with a dragon.

And if Tyrion as a non-magical person could easily cross over from the Game- to the Song-storyline then so could anyone else. Davos, Stannis, Jaime, Brienne, Asha, Theon, the Blackfish, random Northmen, etc could all potentially play an important role in the battle against the Others. And not just 'oh yea, btw s/he was fighting there as well'-parts but really important 'we wouldn't have won this war without them'-parts.

If A+J=T is true I feel like I have to start coming to terms with the fact that I'm reading a fantasy story where the heroes/villains are already established at the time of their birth because a person has to come from a particular bloodline to achieve something. So it will be all (secret) Targs and demi-God Bran in the end and if we are very lucky a little bit about Arya and Sansa. And of course the possibility of little 6yo Rickon being more important in the battle than well-established nonmagical POV characters just because he has special magic blood and they don't.

Anyway, all of this is exactly the opposite of what GRRM always said he likes in a story and I always agreed with him on that so I'd really hate it if he takes his story down that road.

[Cas Stark]

Right.

I have nothing against magic blood, it has it's place in fantasy, just like talismans, magic swords, rings, magic itself and so on.

But, I would have preferred Tyrion, being one of the 3 main protagonists, be a non magic guy, a guy who is getting there by his wits, by reading books, not simply by existing.

I love Jon Snow. I love the direwolves. And warging. I love the Stark must be in Winterfell and the magic I believe is woven into the walls of the castle. And the Song of Ice and Fire and the Prince that was Promised. I'm good with all that.

The Valaryians are cool, too, even if they were slavers, purple eyes, crazy soccery, high technology and dragon binding and breeding, black candles, Valaryian steel, all kinds of never to be duplicated stuff, even if they were using blood magic to get it all going.

But, really? Now we have to make Tyrion a magic dwarf with magic dragon blood? Ugh. Why can't he be a regular person who is smart??

But, now we h av

[Danelle]

Ok, would anyone care to reexamine the dream where Tyrion has two heads? In light of the new information I think someone should definitely look that up. Not me, because...well I'm lazy. :P

In his second DWD chapter, Tyrion and Illyrio travel to meet Griff.

On their journey, they talk about Dany, Illyrion describes her as a strong girl, who has proven herself to be worthy of her glorious ancestors.

Later, Tyrion tells Illyrio that:

I dreamed about the queen," he said. "I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.

"Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.

Of course by that point, Tyrion loathes Jaime, perhaps even more than Cersei.

During the journey they talk about a lot of things, such as the reason behind Illyrio's decision to assist Dany, the GC motives to support a Targaryen even though they were founded by Blackfyres and how Illyrio met Varys.

And then Tyrion dreams:

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

The hills could also be a reference to the Velvet Hills, a place that Tyrion visited recently and perhaps stimulated the particular imagery in his dream.

Barristan' presence can be easily explained. He is one of Dany's counselors and a brave knight. In the same chapter he is previously mentioned as the man who killed the last Blackfyre pretender.

Likewise Bittersteel is the man who founded the GC.

The fact that all three are allies fighting side by side, is probably stimulated by his earlier thoughts:

He wondered what Barristan Selmy would think of riding into battle with the Golden Company. During the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Selmy had cut a bloody path through their ranks to slay the last of the Blackfyre Pretenders. Rebellion makes for queer bedfellows. And none more queer than this fat man and me.

Killing Tywin and Jaime makes sense, since he hates them, and laughing while he smashes his brother's face is hardly surprising. His is bitter, resentful and he desires to harm Jaime.

But what is odd is the fact that Tyrion in the dream has two heads, both noseless.

The last Blackfyre pretender, Maelys the Monstrous, also had two heads, and he lead a campaign to reclaim his birthright.

The two heads, could be a link to Tyrion' targaryen heritage, as well a further irony on the alliances made during a war, as if Tyrion will somehow replace Maelys.

The tears of course, prove that Tyrion still loves and cares for Jaime.

Oddly, in that dream, Tyrion has an extra body part, which defines his role and the side he wishes to join in the Game. This is the opposite of Jaime' dream in FFC

"This is a dream."

"Is it?" She smiled sadly. "Count your hands, child."

One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. "In my dreams I always have two hands." He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump.

"We all dream of things we cannot have.

In that dream, Jaime appears before his mother as he really is without a hand. The lack of a body part, helps Jaime realise who he really is and redefine himself.

[Ramsay Gimp]

In his second DWD chapter, Tyrion and Illyrio travel to meet Griff.

On their journey, they talk about Dany, Illyrion describes her as a strong girl, who has proven herself to be worthy of her glorious ancestors.

Later, Tyrion tells Illyrio that:

Of course by that point, Tyrion loathes Jaime, perhaps even more than Cersei.

During the journey they talk about a lot of things, such as the reason behind Illyrio's decision to assist Dany, the GC motives to support a Targaryen even though they were founded by Blackfyres and how Illyrio met Varys.

And then Tyrion dreams:

The hills could also be a reference to the Velvet Hills, a place that Tyrion visited recently and perhaps stimulated the particular imagery in his dream.

Barristan' presence can be easily explained. He is one of Dany's counselors and a brave knight. In the same chapter he is previously mentioned as the man who killed the last Blackfyre pretender.

Likewise Bittersteel is the man who founded the GC.

The fact that all three are allies fighting side by side, is probably stimulated by his earlier thoughts:

Killing Tywin and Jaime makes sense, since he hates them, and laughing while he smashes his brother's face is hardly surprising. His is bitter, resentful and he desires to harm Jaime.

But what is odd is the fact that Tyrion in the dream has two heads, both noseless.

The last Blackfyre pretender, Maelys the Monstrous, also had two heads, and he lead a campaign to reclaim his birthright.

The two heads, could be a link to Tyrion' targaryen heritage, as well a further irony on the alliances made during a war, as if Tyrion will somehow replace Maelys.

The tears of course, prove that Tyrion still loves and cares for Jaime.

Oddly, in that dream, Tyrion has an extra body part, which defines his role and the side he wishes to join in the Game. This is the opposite of Jaime' dream in FFC

In that dream, Jaime appears before his mother as he really is without a hand. The lack of a body part, helps Jaime realise who he really is and redefine himself.

I think you've solved the mystery - Tyrion is a Blackfyre! :P

[UnmaskedLurker]

Cas--I understand your frustration and while I don't feel the same way, I will try to put it into context that might make it a little more understandable. GRRM does not seem to believe in pre-destined heroes. But this story has prophecies--and the prophecies must be fulfilled in some way. But they are not destiny--so much as glimpses of the future which make the story interesting and their meaning only becomes clear after being fulfilled (with some exceptions where the prophecy is quite clear--like parts of Cersei's fortune). But what GRRM is really interested in is the inner struggle and the choices people make. So Tyrion will have to choose to be a hero. It won't come easily. He may bond with a dragon accidentally--and be completely scared sh!tless. But when the time comes to make a choice between staying safe and putting himself out there to work with Dany and Jon to save the world--he will choose to save the world. That inner struggle is what GRRM is really interested in portraying. But he needs to give Tyrion the "power" to be able to have to make that choice. He needs to be one of the heads of the dragon. So the ancient seer saw what choice Tyrion would make--the right choice. But the seer did not force Tyrion to make that choice--Tyrion will have chosen it. And the way he gets by using his wits still remains as a powerful part of his personality.l

[Cas Stark]

Cas--I understand your frustration and while I don't feel the same way, I will try to put it into context that might make it a little more understandable. GRRM does not seem to believe in pre-destined heroes. But this story has prophecies--and the prophecies must be fulfilled in some way. But they are not destiny--so much as glimpses of the future which make the story interesting and their meaning only becomes clear after being fulfilled (with some exceptions where the prophecy is quite clear--like parts of Cersei's fortune). But what GRRM is really interested in is the inner struggle and the choices people make. So Tyrion will have to choose to be a hero. It won't come easily. He may bond with a dragon accidentally--and be completely scared sh!tless. But when the time comes to make a choice between staying safe and putting himself out there to work with Dany and Jon to save the world--he will choose to save the world. That inner struggle is what GRRM is really interested in portraying. But he needs to give Tyrion the "power" to be able to have to make that choice. He needs to be one of the heads of the dragon. So the ancient seer saw what choice Tyrion would make--the right choice. But the seer did not force Tyrion to make that choice--Tyrion will have chosen it. And the way he gets by using his wits still remains as a powerful part of his personality.l

I agree that the prophecies have all been partially misunderstood by our characters. But, come on, Stormborn is destined for greatness and that has been clear from half way through the first book. If hatching dragons wasn't enough, we've got her own visions in the House of the Undying and Quath to provide more proof. Now, I would find it awesome and hilarious if she "goes bad" or dies before saving the world riding her dragon with her silver hair flowing behind her...because I'm sick of her and her bad decisions [that is another story, LOL]. However, she is very clearly marked for a destiny.

The signs for Jon Snow are less in your face, but he's all traditional hero/good guy/all the time. So, how are you going to subvert this trope? We already know Jon is going to make the right choice or the choice he thinks is right, he will sacrifice himself, etc. etc.

So, I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing we have two fairly traditional "heroes" who are perhaps more nuanced and Stormborn is certainly more grey, but they are still (1) royal blood, (2) magical abilities/magic blood (3) magical familiars dragon/direwolf (4) prophecies and somebody is going to get (5) magic sword/lightbringer. When you get right down to it, these tropes are not subverted, just drawn in more complex way, at least to date.

Making the dwarf fit the exact same formula except he has a crazy/tragic freaky back story of wife raping, father killing, whoring all over Westeros, etc. doesn't change it too much.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I agree that the prophecies have all been partially misunderstood by our characters. But, come on, Stormborn is destined for greatness and that has been clear from half way through the first book. If hatching dragons wasn't enough, we've got her own visions in the House of the Undying and Quath to provide more proof. Now, I would find it awesome and hilarious if she "goes bad" or dies before saving the world riding her dragon with her silver hair flowing behind her...because I'm sick of her and her bad decisions [that is another story, LOL]. However, she is very clearly marked for a destiny.

The signs for Jon Snow are less in your face, but he's all traditional hero/good guy/all the time. So, how are you going to subvert this trope? We already know Jon is going to make the right choice or the choice he thinks is right, he will sacrifice himself, etc. etc.

So, I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing we have two fairly traditional "heroes" who are perhaps more nuanced and Stormborn is certainly more grey, but they are still (1) royal blood, (2) magical abilities/magic blood (3) magical familiars dragon/direwolf (4) prophecies and somebody is going to get (5) magic sword/lightbringer. When you get right down to it, these tropes are not subverted, just drawn in more complex way, at least to date.

Making the dwarf fit the exact same formula except he has a crazy/tragic freaky back story of wife raping, father killing, whoring all over Westeros, etc. doesn't change it too much.

I get what you are saying. That is why endings are very hard. Inevitably, some people are going to hate them. I agree, however, that the idea of GRRM as a trope subverter has been oversold.

[Cas Stark]

I get what you are saying. That is why endings are very hard. Inevitably, some people are going to hate them. I agree, however, that the idea of GRRM as a trope subverter has been oversold.

Well, on that I heartily agree. LOL. I will say, turning Tywin Lannister into a sort of strange stoic bitter victim is weirdly compelling, even though I prefer the straightforward story, where all the children are his, and his failure to understand each of them, despite his obsession with legacy, is the real cause of his downfall and death, crossbow aside. I like that story better.