Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[butterbumps!]

Yeah, good point. Tyrion was the guy snarling among the dragons, he wasn't seen as a dragon himself. And if the three heads are Aegon, Dany and Jon, then the subversion could be that the heads are in conflict, not cooperation (i.e. people think the three heads will come together to defeat the Big Bad and that might not be the case).

And I am in total agreement with your last graf.

Agreed. And even if one is not an Aegon Blackfyre believer, there's 3 patently obvious "Targs" in the mix. Whether Blackfyre, Rhaegar's actual son, or even some Pisswater kid dressed up in Targ clothes, Aegon is coming to us as a "dragon."

The "heads" aren't necessarily riders. And more than one person can ride a dragon. And there's a dragon horn to ostensibly bypass the dragonblood for those who believe that dragonblood is a requirement for riding.

And yea, the heads might not be working together in this. I'm not sure exactly how I see those heads coming together or clashing, but I do feel strongly about "the dragon has 3 heads" referring to the 3 branches of "Targs" we see.

[Newstar]

I have to laugh at some posters in this thread, particularly posters who have been sneering at this theory as crackpot for years, falling back on arguments with all the rhetorical strength of "Nuh-uh!" There aren't enough LOLs in the world for this shit. Where are the Michael Jackson eating popcorn gifs when you need them?

In all seriousness, when Ran or Linda tweeted several months ago about one theory being put to rest with the stroke of a pen in TWOIAF, I figured it was the Tyrion Targ theory. I'm actually quite surprised to see that GRRM has poured gasoline on the fire instead of extinguishing it.

The frustrating thing is that this theory whether right nor wrong will never be proven or disproven short of Word of GRRM. The Targ blood = dragonrider business will always be murky, because Nettles could have been a dragonseed, so if Tyrion tames a dragon, it won't prove anything one way or another (since Nettles could have lacked Targ blood as well). Similarly, Aerys, Tywin and Joanna are all dead, so no one will be able to verify anything about Tyrion's parentage one way or another.

I do agree that it's weird that Tywin wouldn't pack off Tyrion to the Citadel if he truly believed he wasn't his...but then, it seems weird that Tywin wouldn't pack Tyrion off to the Citadel even if he knew Tyrion was his, just to have him out of his hair. I never quite bought that Tywin would refuse to let Tyrion go to the Citadel when he asked; the meta answer is that there wouldn't have been a story (Tywin/Tyrion-wise) if Tywin had granted that request, but it always seemed strange. Tyrion wants to go, Tywin wants to be rid of him, what's the problem?

[Chaircat Meow]

If you feel like playing with semantics, maybe.

Ho-hum, don't you go on about Jon being a real Targaryen because R married L. If R and L hadn't married would Jon's bastardry be semantics?

[Lord Varys]

Of course can 15-year-olds rape. But the way Aerys is described such a behavior is somewhat unlikely (he was a charming womanizer most of his life, not a rapist), as is Joanna's continued stay at court thereafter.

I'm under the impression that Moqorro is subtly mocking Tyrion and everyone he interacts with whenever he appears. He knows way too much about the future, and this is showing. For instance, when he does not warn anyone that they are sailing to their doom...

If we assume that Moqorro has seen Tyrion becoming a dragonrider, and only then realizing who he actually is, he would not want to contradict that future by telling him in advance who he is...

The idea that the heads of the dragon are not supposed to be dragonriders is also somewhat strange to me. What else are they supposed to be, then? Pretenders to the Iron Throne? Hidden Targaryens who don't do anything all that important? Dany's two husbands?

[Ser Creighton]

For those who believe Aegon is a Blackfyre, "the dragon" already has 3 heads (a "red" Targ branch that's Dany, a "black" bastard branch reflected in Aegon, and a "white" Snowy branch). DwD was not called a Dance with Dragons for nothing. Tyrion was the one "snarling" betwixt them all.

I still think Tyrion = Targ makes no sense. The "is it possible" question wasn't the issue for me (nearly anything is "possible" in a technical sense). It's whether such a revelation is really in conversation with the rest of ASOIAF, and I still say no.

Just a point, being a Dragon or a Targ does not make anyone one of the three heads. It's not like an automatic deal. It can be a separate conversation. Having Targ blood also does not make you a Targ. House Valyreon, house Baratheon. Anyway just pointing that out.

Though Tyrion fitting inbetween the dragons fits nicely with his symbolism in Dance. Often his story appears to parallel Dany and Jon's or rather like it walks a line between them, which fits the imagery mentioned. Though I don't catch him snarling that much. But why the Vision has him in the middle of the dragons snarling is a different topic.

[mezmerised]

Hang on. I'm not saying A+J=T is true. I'm saying A raped J and consequently Tywin believes T might be A's son, but knows he doesn't know one way or the other. I was trying to provide a way of explaining why GrrM included the info which actually didn't lead us to assume he necessarily meant to reveal T as a Targ. I'm saying he told us this not so we conclude T was a Targ but so that we'd finally get Lord Tywin. However, unquestionably the Woiaf is good news for those A+J theorists, and they might be right, but I don't think this proves it.

I would imagine Tywin just took it for granted Tyrion was not his heir. The lords of the west would know Tywin did not intend Tyrion to inherit, and wouldn't want him to themselves either. Robert and Jon had probably agreed to release Jaime if he requested it, and they wouldn't want the west held by Tyrion. So I expect Tywin anticipated no problems.

Oh, ok that seems like a somewhat logical explanation for why he might have included it.

And I agree that it's still likely that Tyrion is a Lannister. Hope I didn't come across as a believer of A+J=T for mentioning clues I could hypothetically agree with. After spending the last couple of days arguing against the theory I just mentioned other things that could be interpreted as stuff that GRRM left for us to contemplate. I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that he wants to draw our attention to the fact that Tyrion could be a Targ.

This is still my Nr 1 point that actual A+J=T believers have yet to answer though. It's one thing for Tywin to just take it for granted that Tyrion was not his heir and another thing to make sure it doesn't happen. If he suspected Tyrion to be a Targ I'd assume he'd do the latter. And also, you know, just send him away somewhere. Why would he want to be confronted day after day with the sight of Aerys Targaryen's bastard?

[butterbumps!]

Just a point, being a Dragon or a Targ does not make anyone one of the three heads. It's not like an automatic deal. It can be a separate conversation. Having Targ blood also does not make you a Targ. House Valyreon, house Baratheon. Anyway just pointing that out.

Though Tyrion fitting inbetween the dragons fits nicely with his symbolism in Dance. Often his story appears to parallel Dany and Jon's or rather like it walks a line between them, which fits the imagery mentioned. Though I don't catch him snarling that much. But why the Vision has him in the middle of the dragons snarling is a different topic.

In terms of Dany, Aegon and Jon, these are 3 "branches" or "iterations" of "Targs" that are central to the story. There are 3 "Targ" permutations in play. And Tyrion was noted to be "snarling amidst them all" (paraphrased). We're not talking about Bastard offshoot houses, but a far more central interplay of 3 "Targ" representations.

"Snarling" I thought referred to how he's the one character to have made contact with all 3 in an influential manner (well, technically, he hasn't yet influenced Dany yet, but I think we can see that's where it's going).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Of course can 15-year-olds rape. But the way Aerys is described such a behavior is somewhat unlikely (he was a charming womanizer most of his life, not a rapist), as is Joanna's continued stay at court thereafter.

So you think being a rapist can't also be charming and even persuasive?

You come off as incredibly tone deaf here. Not all rapists are mustache-twirlers hiding in the bushes.

I also still don't see why Aerys MAYBE having sex with Joanna in 259-263 means he MUST have knocked her up with Tyrion in the early 270s.

[Newstar]

I don't see why Tywin suddenly stops being a monster if Tyrion turns out to be Aerys' son, as was suggested upthread. That wouldn't negate ordering Tysha's gang rape; condemning 300 men, women and children to a horrifying death by sealing up the Reyne mines; siccing the Mountain on the Riverlands; orchestrating the Red Wedding and the violation of a terrible taboo; ordering the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon; and so on, and so forth. Also, if Cat's hatred of Jon, the living embodiment and constant reminder (to her) of her husband's believed infidelity, is unreasonable, how is Tywin's hatred of Tyrion any less so?

[Mithras]

I have to laugh at some posters in this thread, particularly posters who have been sneering at this theory as crackpot for years, falling back on arguments with all the rhetorical strength of "Nuh-uh!" There aren't enough LOLs in the world for this shit. Where are the Michael Jackson eating popcorn gifs when you need them?

In all seriousness, when Ran or Linda tweeted several months ago about one theory being put to rest with the stroke of a pen in TWOIAF, I figured it was the Tyrion Targ theory. I'm actually quite surprised to see that GRRM has poured gasoline on the fire instead of extinguishing it.

The frustrating thing is that this theory whether right nor wrong will never be proven or disproven short of Word of GRRM. The Targ blood = dragonrider business will always be murky, because Nettles could have been a dragonseed, so if Tyrion tames a dragon, it won't prove anything one way or another (since Nettles could have lacked Targ blood as well). Similarly, Aerys, Tywin and Joanna are all dead, so no one will be able to verify anything about Tyrion's parentage one way or another.

I do agree that it's weird that Tywin wouldn't pack off Tyrion to the Citadel if he truly believed he wasn't his...but then, it seems weird that Tywin wouldn't pack Tyrion off to the Citadel even if he knew Tyrion was his, just to have him out of his hair. I never quite bought that Tywin would refuse to let Tyrion go to the Citadel when he asked; the meta answer is that there wouldn't have been a story (Tywin/Tyrion-wise) if Tywin had granted that request, but it always seemed strange. Tyrion wants to go, Tywin wants to be rid of him, what's the problem?

I think there is a very good chance that Gerion Lannister is the Corsair King and he will show up. He is the only one who can tell what was going on.

As I posted in many places including this thread, I think Gerion himself is the biological father of Tyrion.

[Consigliere]

The idea that the heads of the dragon are not supposed to be dragonriders is also somewhat strange to me. What else are they supposed to be, then? Pretenders to the Iron Throne? Hidden Targaryens who don't do anything all that important? Dany's two husbands?

TPtwP?

The general assumption in-story that the three heads = three people makes me think that this might not be the case. Also it is one dragon with three heads. "Heads" in this context may be symbolic.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I have been wracking my feline brain about this. I'm pretty sure Aerys did rape Joanna in 273. We hear Tywin offered to resign the next day, implying that the real reason he wanted to quit his job occurred sometime after Aerys's remark about Joanna's breasts (a night after).

Great post, but I think this part is a stretch. Just because Tywin's offer to resign didn't occur 5 minutes after the tits insult doesn't meant that something else must have happened. Tywin isn't impulsive. I could easily see him stewing over it all night, weighing his options, and then offering his resignation to Aerys the next day

[Mithras]

I am looking forward to see the death of the dragons during the civil war (with Viserion likely being the first one to go by Davos the Dragonslayer's scorpion bolt fired from his ship). After the symmetry is broken, I wonder how will the "three heads = three riders" theories will react to it.

[Wmarshal]

Tyrion is a Hill, not a Targaryen. Thus George's comment fits. Not to mention that Jon is effectively a Snow.

Ran has confirmed that Tywin was named Hand in 263 AC, not in 262 AC. That should sort of confirm that Joanna did indeed 'rule as Aerys' mistress' for a few months after his coronation.

Assuming that this thing began with rape is a stretch, too. In 259 AC, when Aerys apparently deflowered Joanna, he was only 15 years old. That's pretty young for a rape, and I guess she would not have stayed at court if that was the case.

Rhaella banishing Joanna is also very telling. She did not want that her ladies whore around, and Joanna was already married when she was banished. What could that possibly mean?

Didn't he also mention Tyrion was named by his father? And before you say " Oh why would he care to be careful about that? Jon is the one to care for" If he planned his speech to the letter he would have made everything well made and true.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

TPtwP?

The general assumption in-story that the three heads = three people makes me think that this might not be the case. Also it is one dragon with three heads. "Heads" in this context may be symbolic.

I've argued before that it's one person and not three and people lose their shit. In other words, I agree with your logic, but good luck with other people.

[Marcus Agrippa]

If this is true it is a terrible literally device. I don't like Tyrion- he is one of my least faveriotes outside of Cersie and Jon connington. However, this would be a waste of time, effort, and plot to have Tyrion be a targ. The Lannister Dyanmic would be utterly chrushed and There are enough dragons. Stannis, Danerys, Jon, Shireen, bloodraven, melisandra, and Aegon all have dragon blood. Givning a dragon to each family is somewhat redunandent and competely kills the series for me. This series was an A+ until this point- this drops it to a B. Tywin also is a villian from all rights looks slightly better because of this. It does mean Tyrion doesn't deserve the Rock and it also set's up Aerys having one more active child then Rhaegar did.

Nice catch with the whole three heads of the dragons fighting thing. It would be a lot like Cerbus. I also heard Stannis hasn't been signed on for season 7 of GOT. I have a feeling the stag is done in the next book which upsets the balance more in my opinion.

[UnmaskedLurker]

If you know that then you should know that I have already explained my case multiple times and see no use in wasting my time repeating it when you're just going to repeat yet again that you don't agree. Similarly to how your text wall hasn't convinced me of this theory's literary value. Accept that we're at an impasse, we're not going to agree, and get over it.

It's also funny that your support for this theory is largely based on the "big three" all being Targs, when the author is on the record as saying that the third head, however it manifests, doesn't even need to be a Targ at all.

Just to be clear--while I have seen you respond dismissively toward this theory on a number of occasions in the past, I don't recall ever seeing details regarding why you thought the theory was so problematic from a literary point of view. And no, I was not looking to see your views just so that I could repeat why I disagree with them--rather, I respect your views and find you to be one of the more analytically crisp thinkers on the board, and accordingly was genuinely interesting in getting better insight on why you were so strongly against this possible plot development. But if you feel you have stated your views enough times in the past and don't want to repeat them, I certainly respect that. Perhaps I will try a search to locate other places where you have laid out these views more thoroughly and read them there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Didn't he also mention Tyrion was named by his father?

Yes. Tyrion named by his father, Dany by her mother, Jon by Ned. He was careful how he worded it.

[Lord Varys]

I just don't find it very likely that young Aerys was a rapist. He is only described as such when he is completely mad, and Westeros does not even know the concept of marital rape (I do). Whether rapists can be nice and charming or not was not the issue here (of course they can, they are human beings), rather the question whether young Aerys was the kind of man who resorted to rape after he had actually charmed or seduced a woman - any woman responding to the advances of the Prince of Dragonstone would have known what was expected of her, and not try refuse intercourse after they have followed him into his bedchamber or whatever they could share some 'private time'.

There is also no hint to suggest wanted to enact rape fantasies, or BDSM stuff of any sort, suggesting that sex with him did not reach limits making it completely uncomfortable who actually was willing to enter into an affair with the Crown Prince.

If Aerys raped Joanna back in 259-263 AC, then we would have to ask why the hell did she not leave court at that time. I'd take the fact that she did not as a sign that she was not actually raped.

272 AC could be something different, though, although I think that some sort of comforting thing could also have been going on afterwards - Aerys realizing that he had humilated Joanna, not Tywin. Tywin may have tried to resign solely because Aerys had insulted Joanna, not because of anything that had happened - without his knowledge - later, and Aerys may have refused to accept his resignation because he had gotten what he wanted again (Joanna).

Three heads: Well, without dragons they would be pretty boring 'dragon heads', especially Tyrion. Dany's dragons may not be only dragons is the world anyway, at least not at this point.

And if the heads are not special or anything it would be very difficult to identify them without the shadow of a doubt.

Tywin is still Tyrion's legal father, by the way. That will not change even if the truth is revealed, because his father raised him as his own.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ran has confirmed that Tywin was named Hand in 263 AC, not in 262 AC. That should sort of confirm that Joanna did indeed 'rule as Aerys' mistress' for a few months after his coronation.

Where was this?