Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[Hrafntýr]

I don't buy that either. He is either Tywin's son or he isn't, in fact. "Choice" doesn't enter in to it, it's biology. I would find that a very strange choice also on the author's part, since it would almost exactly mirror what I expect to be Jon Snow's internal struggle...Stark or Targaryen....so, then we're have two of the three main characters engaged in exactly the same mental dilemma on their identity? Really? Bad writing if true.

As others have pointed out, there is an absence of biological proof. If a woman slept with two men around the time that she conceived, and there is nothing like DNA tests and there is an absence of extremely obvious characteristics linking the child to one or another of the possible fathers, then there will always remain doubt. And that's all that I'm holding out for. I find the characters of Tywin and Tyrion far richer in the absence of certainty.

Yes, Ran is Elio and I noticed that comment as well. I don't really know Elio's personality at all, so I don't know whether he would want to stoke doubt or not. I tend to think, however, that he would simply want people to keep speculating about these issues and not think they are resolved. But if A+J=T is merely suggested by a bunch of red herrings, then I don't really know the point of them. Normally a red herring is meant to distract the readers from the real resolution of some mystery. Classically, it is putting forth additional suspects so that the real murderer is not completely obvious as the only realistic suspect. But in this case, A+J=T would be a red herring for what purpose? I don't get the point of putting in these clues as a distraction--as distraction from what?

Although I kind of agree that red herring may not be the absolute best term for what is going on here, it isn't really so bad. For what might stoking the fires of A+J=T be a red herring? Well, we've got one of the central mysteries of the series being the meaning of the phrase, "The dragon must have three heads." And yet we don't really at all know what that means. Does it refer to three dragonriders? I think most people think this has something to do with it, given that we've got three dragons currently on scene. But is Targaryen/dragonlord blood required to be a dragonrider? On that we've got considerable difference of opinion, and GRRM has refused to provide an answer. Accordingly, to set up a character who may or may not have "dragonblood" serves to keep this intriguing question alive. And as I've said upthread, I think there could be good reasons for this question not to be resolved. For example, if someone of questionable blood were to ride a dragon, one might quickly jump to the conclusion, "Aha, I guess he really was half-Targ after all," but then one might also feel a little uncomfortable/ashamed for buying into all that Valyrian dragonlord ideological BS. At least that's the kind of reading experience I enjoy, having my own willingness to be manipulated made apparent. I'm not a big fan of detective novels.

I should probably take a cue from your caution and refrain from putting words in Elio's mouth, but my reading of his quote there is that this red herring isn't for us so much as it's for the characters. Specifically, Tywin.

Let's say for the sake of argument that none of these issues occurred to anyone else in Westeros: Tywin is sensitive to insults or perceived insults, obsessed with Joanna, and very jealous of Aerys to begin with. He will be wondering about their relationship. He'll be staring a little longer at Tyrion, especially given that he has at least one reason to wish Tyrion were someone else's. He'll suspect, it'll undermine his confidence. Worse, he'll suspect that everyone else is having the same thoughts. He'll suspect they're laughing at him behind his back. Tywin responds to insecurity with aggression. This could be the nagging insecurity that explains so much of his attitude toward other people.

So yeah, you could introduce this question, never answer it, and just have the fact that the question is out there and at least one of the characters is aware of it inform your world in a pretty big way.

I really enjoyed this post, Perfidious Algernon! I agree that the "new" information about Joanna and Aerys adds a lot of depth of Tywin's character. I think that a lot of us humans have to live with these big questions to which we'll never ever receive an answer, and that they can profoundly shape our personality and behavior. Some part of Tywin will of course want to believe that Tyrion is not his, given that he is a "monster." But of course some part of him will want to believe that Tyrion is his, because he doesn't want to accept that Joanna might have slept with Aerys (again). And as you say, his sense of others' perceptions of the situations would only deepen this core doubt. Does he cast aside Tyrion and all but admit that he was cuckolded by the king? Does he keep Tyrion and proclaim him a Lannister, and risk others sniggering that he's got the product of cuckoldry in his family?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes, he could have.

Hypothetically, if this was what he had planned all along, that still makes it a bad idea, based on what he's written to date. It destroys the whole dynamic he created so brilliantly, one of the key things that I liked about the series, and absolutely nothing about the suggested alternative is anywhere near as compelling. It flattens out the entire situation.

You say "Yes, he could have." But you give no suggestion of how he could have--you only repeat how what he did does not work for you if A+J=T. GRRM is trying to (and I think succeeding at) writing an interesting and enjoyable story. Many people have been fascinated by the interplay between T&T. If this relationship had been told differently in anticipation of A+J=T, the readers would have missed out on that interplay because the alternative likely would have been less interesting. So I challenge you again, assuming A+J=T was planned from the beginning and will become necessary to the plot in the end, please outline how GRRM could have written the T/T relationship differently that would have been just as interesting to read but not retroactively been "ruined" by the A+J=T revelation.

[Mithras]

Although I kind of agree that red herring may not be the absolute best term for what is going on here, it isn't really so bad. For what might stoking the fires of A+J=T be a red herring? Well, we've got one of the central mysteries of the series being the meaning of the phrase, "The dragon must have three heads." And yet we don't really at all know what that means. Does it refer to three dragonriders? I think most people think this has something to do with it, given that we've got three dragons currently on scene. But is Targaryen/dragonlord blood required to be a dragonrider? On that we've got considerable difference of opinion, and GRRM has refused to provide an answer. Accordingly, to set up a character who may or may not have "dragonblood" serves to keep this intriguing question alive. And as I've said upthread, I think there could be good reasons for this question not to be resolved. For example, if someone of questionable blood were to ride a dragon, one might quickly jump to the conclusion, "Aha, I guess he really was half-Targ after all," but then one might also feel a little uncomfortable/ashamed for buying into all that Valyrian dragonlord ideological BS. At least that's the kind of reading experience I enjoy, having my own willingness to be manipulated made apparent. I'm not a big fan of detective novels.

These two bolded claims are two great red herrings IMO. And they fit the definition of a red herring because they are voiced by in-story characters. So, when Tyrion rides a dragon, most of the readers will take it as a "proof" of

1. Three dragonriders = three heads of the dragon

2. Tyrion is one of the heads

3. Since Tyrion rides a dragon, he is half-Targ

Therefore, whatever happened between Aerys and Joanna is just "George keeping the flames alive" for me. As discussed to death in the Forum, the three claims above are too trivial to be true, involve big leaps of logic and might be explained in many different ways.

[UnmaskedLurker]

God damn guys 14 pages.....

[snip]

Two clarifications related to the points you made. First, it is not just the revelation that Joanna was at KL at a time that could have been the time of Tyrion's conception that supports A+J=T, it is also the strong suggestion that Aerys and Joanna were lovers prior to Joanna's marriage to Tywin. That information also makes it more likely that A&J would have sex at all (either as a one-time rekindling of the affair or rape by Aerys after being rejected by Joanna when he wanted to rekindle their affair at least one more time). So the visit to KL is not the only new piece of information about Joanna that makes A+J=T more likely. I think there also might be separate new clues, but I don't get my copy of the book until next week, so I am hoping others will confirm some of the hints I have heard.

Second, the fascination of Tyrion with dragons is important because the author chooses to tell us about it--and have it come up over and over again. Sure, if Westeros really existed, a lot of children would be fascinated by dragons (like real children in our world tend to be fascinated by dinosaurs). But in fiction, the real "clues" are the things that could be innocuous (like an interest in dragons that can be explained away)--and thus don't give anything away too much--but looking back help to lay the groundwork for something later. GRRM chooses to let the readers know on multiple occasions that Tyrion loves dragons--that he wanted his uncle to get him a dragon--that he lingers over a dragon skull--etc. etc. GRRM likely does not provide this information just to fill in Tyrion's personality. While possible, more likely this information is given to the readers because it becomes relevant later. It might become relevant for different reasons--I admit (such as Tyrion being able to advise Dany about the dragons or Tyrion riding a dragon but not because he is son of Aerys). But I highly doubt that the readers are given this information for no reason (other than "color" for Tyrion's personality) and the information should not be written off because "lots of children in Westeros were likely interested in dragons" or "of course a dwarf would want a means of feeling powerful like owning a dragon." The information about Tyrion's fascination with dragons has been provided to the readers for a more significant purpose than that--the trick is to figure out what. As a lone clue, I would not have a strong opinion on which possibility would be more likely. To me, however, when added with all the other clues I have seen, I think it is another clue supporting A+J=T. You are free to disagree.

[UnmaskedLurker]

These two bolded claims are two great red herrings IMO. And they fit the definition of a red herring because they are voiced by in-story characters. So, when Tyrion rides a dragon, most of the readers will take it as a "proof" of

1. Three dragonriders = three heads of the dragon

2. Tyrion is one of the heads

3. Since Tyrion rides a dragon, he is half-Targ

Therefore, whatever happened between Aerys and Joanna is just "George keeping the flames alive" for me. As discussed to death in the Forum, the three claims above are too trivial to be true, involve big leaps of logic and might be explained in many different ways.

You and I just had this debate a couple of days ago, so I am not trying to re-start our discussion, but for the benefit of others, I will pronounce that I do not believe these are red herrings. So while I know you have heard my arguments before (and are not convinced by them--so I am not trying to change your mind here), others might not have heard them. I believe that GRRM confirmed that the three heads of the dragon are three characters in the story when GRRM said: “Three heads of the dragon… yes… but the third will not necessarily BE a Targaryen…”

I have heard no plausible explanation for what these words could possibly mean that does not involve the three heads being three characters in the story. Moreover, for GRRM ultimately to reveal that the three heads of the dragon was merely some symbolic representation of some trinity and not a reference to three characters--and make that revelation truly interesting and entertaining--to me seems like a task too great even for GRRM. While I am not 100% convinced that the three heads of the dragon are also three dragon riders--it makes a lot of sense. While others might ride one of the dragons ((f)Aegon for example), these other riders will die prior to the final battle, and it seems likely to me that the three heads will ride the three dragons into the final Battle for the Dawn. Perhaps this conclusion seems too obvious for GRRM to go this route, but it would make a kick-ass battle scene, so I tend to believe it will happen this way.

Now the reason I believe Tyrion is a head of the dragon is principally based on the close parallels among Dany, Jon and Tyrion--such as mothers dying in childbirth, outsiders, lovers dying, etc. etc. No other characters in the series have as many parallels as these three--and they appear to be the three main characters in the series. Then add the clues that Tyrion might be a Targ (such as hair color, mismatched eyes, fascination with dragons, choosing Hugar Hill as his fake name, etc.) and the opportunity that Joanna was in KL during the year prior to Tyrion's birth, and Tyrion as a half-Targ becomes quite likely. In addition, if Tyrion really is a head "of the dragon" then he needs to be "of the dragon" in some sense. If he is a full Lannister (even if he has a "drop" of Targ blood from some ancient ancestor), his is not "of the dragon" in any sense that I could understand. To be "of the dragon" it seems to me that one needs to be "of House Targ" in some sense. So what about GRRM saying the third head is not necessarily a Targ--well Tyrion is not actually a Targ, he is a Targ bastard, making him Tyrion Hill (and "not necessarily" is not the same as "not").

I know many people don't like any sort of linear plot development--and think that anything that seems to be too strongly suggested in the story must turn out to be something else. While certainly GRRM likes to keep the readers guessing, he is not playing "11th dimensional chess" here. In the end, the story has to follow some basic logic--and it has to be interesting. Obsession with everything having to be a twist and nothing being what it seems makes a story into hash in the end (see, for example, M. Night Shyamalan). As the saying goes, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Mithras]

I believe that GRRM confirmed that the three heads of the dragon are three characters in the story when GRRM said: “Three heads of the dragon… yes… but the third will not necessarily BE a Targaryen…”

I will just give the link to that SSM and say no more.

[Lord Varys]

Tyrion Hill is not a Targaryen. And Jon Snow may never become a dragonrider. He is not exactly in the neighborhood...

[Cas Stark]

Tyrion Hill is not a Targaryen. And Jon Snow may never become a dragonrider. He is not exactly in the neighborhood...

He would have Targaryen blood, the same way that Jon Snow has Stark blood which is why he has a direwolf. Jon may not ride a dragon, so that leaves Dany, Aegon and Tyrion, LOL. Okay. I guess.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

These two bolded claims are two great red herrings IMO. And they fit the definition of a red herring because they are voiced by in-story characters. So, when Tyrion rides a dragon, most of the readers will take it as a "proof" of

1. Three dragonriders = three heads of the dragon

2. Tyrion is one of the heads

3. Since Tyrion rides a dragon, he is half-Targ

Therefore, whatever happened between Aerys and Joanna is just "George keeping the flames alive" for me. As discussed to death in the Forum, the three claims above are too trivial to be true, involve big leaps of logic and might be explained in many different ways.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think Tyrion riding a dragon would prove any of those. But based on the story he would be somewhat less likely to become dragonfood if he has a bit of Targ blood, whether from Aerys or someone else (like a Plumm, did we get any Plumm info in the book?).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Nettles is a Dragonstonian girl by birth and has thus very likely as much dragonlord blood as all the other dragonseeds.

On Nettles I think she could be a dragonseed. She usually gets singled out but I don't see what makes her less likely than say that son of a blacksmith. Where was his proof?

IRRC it said that Addam of Hull claimed to be Laenor's son but there was speculation that Laenor was not one of those gay men who will sleep with women anyways.

So I don't see what makes them more likely than Nettles. Nettles is brown but Mercy says:

“They should call her the Brown Pearl,” Mercy said to Daena. “She’s more brown than black.”

“The first Black Pearl was black as a pot of ink,” said Daena. “She was a pirate queen, fathered by a Sealord’s son on a princess from the Summer Isles. A dragon king from Westeros took her for his lover.”

We have known Targ descendants who look more like Nettles than they would actual Targs.

No story was given for anyone by House Targaryen?

Yes, Ran is Elio. ;)

The Targaryens lived at Dragonstone for more than 200 years, at the time when Nettles comes into play. And the male Targaryens have slept around on Dragonstone, a lot, as the habitants of Dragonstone didn´t seem to mind it all too much. So yeah, there´s a much bigger chance that Nettles had Targaryen blood, than some household knight who originates from the Reach, for example.

Therefor, it is very interesting to see that all of Rhaenyra's household fails (they do not mostly originate from Dragonstone), yet four people with a high chance of Valyrian ancestry do.

Yes to these posters. Look I'm sorry, but at this point anyone who reads these books should be smart enough to see that Valyrians ride dragons and no one else. There are many passages in TWOIAF which confirm this, along with 5 ASOIAF books which also confirm it, as well as 5 short stories, all saying the same thing; Targaryens ride dragons and no one else. It's the kind of thing a child could figure out if they read the woiaf.

We have Tyrion telling BBP flat out; 'the dragons like you because of your Targaryen blood'

We have BBP saying (earlier) that the dragons like him cuz 'he has a drop of dragonblood'. Because it is universal knowledge on Planetos that Dragons like people with dragonblood. Stands to reason right?

"With their hair of the palest silver or gold and eyes in the shades of pruple not found amongst any other peoples of the world--is well known, and often held up as proof that the Valyrians are not entirely of the same blood as other men......this may be the liklier answer to the mystery of the Valyrian origins although it does not explain the affinity with dragons that those the blood of Valyria clearly had.

"Targaryen dragons.;'

"Targaryens and their dragons"

"The Targaryen Dragons."

It is backed up by everyone who talks about dragons ever in the books. This is just something that is true, there is not ONE argument against it, and posters who fight this are scrambling and look silly.

[lojzelote]

It's far from proven, not even a "strong" theory as some that people take as fact. But the thing is a lot of people treat it as crackpot. It's not. We should keep an eye open.

I actually have an alternate idea that Tyrion is Tywin's son, but those hints are there to convince Tyrion that he's a Targ bastard at a certain point. He's estranged from his family and if Barristan told him his mother had an affair with Aerys, he could start to have ideas. Wishful thinking or playing it to convince Dany, Tyrion Targ could have a part in the story, regardless of his true parentage.

I think you may be up to something. There was that passage in ADwD that Tyrion always wished he was a secret Targaryen, LOL.

When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the

nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o’er

fields and mountains. Once, when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his name-day, he

begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.” His uncle

Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon

died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep

that night.

I wonder if he gets his heart's wish.

[Cas Stark]

Yes to these posters. Look I'm sorry, but at this point anyone who reads these books should be smart enough to see that Valyrians ride dragons and no one else. There are many passages in TWOIAF which confirm this, along with 5 ASOIAF books which also confirm it, as well as 5 short stories, all saying the same thing; Targaryens ride dragons and no one else. It's the kind of thing a child could figure out if they read the woiaf.

We have Tyrion telling BBP flat out; 'the dragons like you because of your Targaryen blood'

We have BBP saying (earlier) that the dragons like him cuz 'he has a drop of dragonblood'. Because it is universal knowledge on Planetos that Dragons like people with dragonblood. Stands to reason right?

"With their hair of the palest silver or gold and eyes in the shades of pruple not found amongst any other peoples of the world--is well known, and often held up as proof that the Valyrians are not entirely of the same blood as other men......this may be the liklier answer to the mystery of the Valyrian origins although it does not explain the affinity with dragons that those the blood of Valyria clearly had.

"Targaryen dragons.;'

"Targaryens and their dragons"

"The Targaryen Dragons."

It is backed up by everyone who talks about dragons ever in the books. This is just something that is true, there is not ONE argument against it, and posters who fight this are scrambling and look silly.

Well, except the author has said that coming 3 dragon riders don't have to be Targaryens....which I guess could be seen as him being "cute" again about Targaryen doesn't equal Valaryen or whatever...but, at this point, I am annoyed by all of this semantical stuff, it's too cute on his part.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

And as to A+J=T;

upon reading last night I came across much more evidence;

Aerys named Jaime to the kingsguard all of a sudden, even though, after naming him, he immediately became very scared of him at the KOTLT tourney right? Sends Jaime back to KL because he is too nervous to even eat in front of him. One must wonder why he would care so much to name Jaime to the KG in the first place??????

Well, If he names Jaime to the KG then that leaves his own bastard son to inherit Casterly Rock, pretty good incentive if you ask me.

Rhaella has many miscarriages and still births, Aerys sees the healthy twins born and is jealous, he states "I married the wrong woman' . He thinks Rhaella is cheating on him, locks her in her chambers with guards. This all clearly suggests that he would want another shot at Joanna, which he says himself after he hears about the twins.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Well, except the author has said that coming 3 dragon riders don't have to be Targaryens....which I guess could be seen as him being "cute" again about Targaryen doesn't equal Valaryen or whatever...but, at this point, I am annoyed by all of this semantical stuff, it's too cute on his part.

well if BBP rides, he is not a 'targaryen', if Tyrion rides he is not a 'Targaryen' if Vicatarion blows a horn and rides he is not a 'Targaryen' If Jon Snow rides he is not a 'Targaryen'.

I think that is all GRRM by that, that their last name may not be Targaryen, and that is perfectly true.

Especially since Dany is the ONLY living person with that last name, I think GRRM could have gone without that statement as it seems fairly obvious that there are no other Targaryen characters in the books (besides that Blackfyre pretender kid).

[Cas Stark]

well if BBP rides, he is not a 'targaryen', if Tyrion rides he is not a 'Targaryen' if Vicatarion blows a horn and rides he is not a 'Targaryen' If Jon Snow rides he is not a 'Targaryen'.

I think that is all GRRM by that, that their last name may not be Targaryen, and that is perfectly true.

Ugh, yeah, but we already knew that, we already knew that Valaryians rode dragons, so why say the dragon riders don't have to be Targs unless you're either trolling everyone or saying that you don't have to have Valaryian blood, otherwise he's stating the obvious...

But, I don't really care anymore. If Tyrion is a secret Targaryen, so be it, it will be added to my list of dumbass moves the author has made since Storm of Swords. If Jon is Wylla's son and the whole Lynna was a red herring, great, whatever. I expect the worst now, whatever outcome I am going to hate the most...that is what I expect will happen.

[Da_milkman]

Welcome to the forums. :) That people are still arguing that A+J=T is somehow not intentional on the author's part is a bit sad, but some people don't know how to admit they were wrong. The greatest proof of it is in the section of text I have highlighted. The fact that Tywin doubts Tyrion is his and now the information we are given in this book explains why he felt that way.

Agreed and thanks for the welcome.

The scene with Jon and Tryion outside the feast at Winterfell also convinced me that Tyrion may be a Targ.

In that scene Jon notes that Tyrion casts a shadow as large as a king. Read in isolation it may not mean much. However, there other statements made by other characters that portend the great role Tyrion will play in the future of Westoros. The mention of him seeming like a king seemed necessary, unless it was supposed to give us a hint about who Tyrion is (or possibly will be).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Ugh, yeah, but we already knew that, we already knew that Valaryians rode dragons, so why say the dragon riders don't have to be Targs unless you're either trolling everyone or saying that you don't have to have Valaryian blood, otherwise he's stating the obvious...

But, I don't really care anymore. If Tyrion is a secret Targaryen, so be it, it will be added to my list of dumbass moves the author has made since Storm of Swords. If Jon is Wylla's son and the whole Lynna was a red herring, great, whatever. I expect the worst now, whatever outcome I am going to hate the most...that is what I expect will happen.

:(

I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe it will get better once WoW comes out, don't give up!

[Lord Varys]

The Tyrion thing was in there since AGoT. You may not like it, but it's not something he has pulled out of his ass. Just as Aegon was always there, the people not realizing it were simply not reading carefully enough.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The Tyrion thing was in there since AGoT. You may not like it, but it's not something he has pulled out of his ass. Just as Aegon was always there, the people not realizing it were simply not reading carefully enough.

Yes, all the answers for all the biggest mysteries of the books are in the first half of GOT. This is not an ass-pull, it has been set up from the beginning. It is no coincidence that Jon, Tyrion and Aemon are all together at the Wall getting along so easily right away. They are all the closest living relatives each other has minus Dany.

"I have been keeping this secret for 14 years, oh and Jon is 14 years old.

"it's been many a year since a direwolf was seen south of the wall."

"There always has to be a Stark in winterfell."

Jon and Tyrion in GOT----"What are you reading about?" he asked

"Dragons, ' Tyrion told him.

"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did? ' the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bear skin aside and climbed to his feet. " I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion Guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

................

'Most men,' the boy said. "But not you.'

'No, ' Tyrion admitted, 'not me. I seldom ever dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

[SeanF]

In terms of personality, Tyrion is very much Tywin's son, not Aerys'.