Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[Dofs]

I really don't see any interesting plot line for Tyrion if he does not become a dragonrider and a potential pretender himself. Do you guys want him to play cyvasse with Brown Ben until the end of the series, or what?

And no, he plotting revenge or trying to get Casterly Rock is not all that interesting, either...

Whatever arc Tyrion may or may not have had in ASoS, that's not the core of the series.

What kind of story Tyrion will be able to have with a dragon, that he won't be able to have without one?

I agree. There's strong foreshadowing that Tyrion will ride a dragon. There's an affair that could make him a Targ. And we have the guy to tell him that right there in Meereen...

What more do people need to start believing?

There is horn that forces a dragon to serve for the horn's master. And this horn is now carried oh so conveniently exactly to Meereen, where Tyrion is. So no, A+J=T theory is not required for Tyrion to ride a dragon.

[Mark Antony]

Gods Tyrion as a dragonrider *shudders*

[Colonel Green]

To explain why, in part, Tywin was the way he was? Why Tywin was, shall we say, not quite father of the year? Why Tywin betrayed Aerys the way that he did? Sure Tywin's dead now, but all of these things affected him and how he interacted with his children.

No, I don't, because we already have explanations for those things, and "because Tyrion's a secret Targaryen" weakens the entire story of his relationship with Tywin and the nature of his disabiity.

Now, GRRM is absolutely including these details as at least a tease, but I'm of the opinion it's a red herring, because on a literary level the idea just doesn't work, and it has no foundation in any of the early novels. Given the proliferation of fan theories, and the fact that the hint that gave rise to this whole theory came from Barristan, a POV we were never supposed to get, I think it's him playing with the audience.

[mezmerised]

I feel like I'm missing what's supposed to be positive about this for any character that readers might be emotionally invested in. The only person who looks better if A+J=T is Tywin friggin Lannister.

Joanna comes across worse which sucks because I really liked the little bits we've known of her so far. I saw her as kind of a Westerland version of Cat, a strong woman who while loving her husband and listening to his counsel also had her own opinions and had no problem ruling the Westerlands on her own when Tywin was in KL. But now she's either the pitiable victim of Aerys' sexual obsession (which is obviously not her fault but it always pisses me off when a female character gets some sort of rape backstory that wasn't really necessary to the plot) or she is a cheating schemer who tries to sleep her way to the top while at the same time seemingly having super little self-worth.

Plus I don't see any positive change for Tyrion either.

Biologically, I guess, he couldn't be considered a kinslayer anymore but morally/emotionally he'd still be one.

And I'm not sure if he'd handle the revelation about his real father well at all.

Instead of being trueborn he'd now be a bastard. He has to consider the possibility that his father raped his mother. Tywin actually had a valid reason all these years for not wanting him to get CR. Instead of an evil but capable father who abused him but also protected/clothed/fed him as befits a Lannister he now has an evil and crazy father who never even acknowledged him as his bastard son but instead mocked his mother's husband for fathering a monster.

Edit: In a weird way I think he might feel more guilty about killing Tywin now than when he believed he had killed his father.

And finally Tyrion being a Targ bastard and therefore becoming a dragonrider seems a much lamer story to me than Tyrion being a seemingly non-magical Lannister who manages to bond with a dragon by using his wits, his vast knowledge of dragonlore and a bit of luck.

[Cas Stark]

No, I don't, because we already have explanations for those things, and "because Tyrion's a secret Targaryen" weakens the entire story of his relationship with Tywin and the nature of his disabiity.

Now, GRRM is absolutely including these details as at least a tease, but I'm of the opinion it's a red herring, because on a literary level the idea just doesn't work, and it has no foundation in any of the early novels. Given the proliferation of fan theories, and the fact that the hint that gave rise to this whole theory came from Barristan, a POV we were never supposed to get, I think it's him playing with the audience.

I want to believe that...but a red herring in a companion book quasi encyclopedia...that's kind of random, no, that is really random and strange. 95% of the people who read the books will never buy or read this book, just like they never will or have read the Dunk and Egg or the inferior Princess and the Queen.

Of course, it's beyond me why you are even putting out an encyclopedia before the story is finished at all, but that's another issue.

[Colonel Green]

I want to believe that...but a red herring in a companion book quasi encyclopedia...that's kind of random, no, that is really random and strange. 95% of the people who read the books will never buy or read this book, just like they never will or have read the Dunk and Egg or the inferior Princess and the Queen.

That's not really strange at all. The 5% of people who will read/buy the companion book are exactly the sort of people this red herring is aimed at. You don't see ordinary audiences speculating on this; indeed, many of them haven't even noticed R+L=J, which has been woven thoroughly into the text from the beginning.

[Cas Stark]

That's not really strange at all. The 5% of people who will read/buy the companion book are exactly the sort of people this red herring is aimed at. You don't see ordinary audiences speculating on this; indeed, many of them haven't even noticed R+L=J, which has been woven thoroughly into the text from the beginning.

That doesn't make sense to me, sorry. Red herrings don't belong in companion encyclopedia books written by other people....because the "reveal" will presumably be in the actual series, so these clues will be absent for the overwhelming majority of the readers, if they are red herrings, then it's pretty dumb. If it's GRRM amusing himself at the expense of his biggest fanbase, then shame on him.

[Annara Snow]

And finally Tyrion being a Targ bastard and therefore becoming a dragonrider seems a much lamer story to me than Tyrion being a seemingly non-magical Lannister who manages to bond with a dragon by using his wits, his vast knowledge of dragonlore and a bit of luck.

We already have the example of Nettles, who most probably didn't have any Targ blood (even Targs didn't manage to come up wit a convincing story about her being a dragonseed, and they had reasons to want the belief that only Targs can ride dragons to continue) and bonded with a dragon by using her wits and approaching it the right way. And we also have an example of someone who had Targ blood but was clueless how to approach a dragon (Quentyn). And people still don't get the hint and keep insisting that only Targaryens can ride dragons. Even though GRRM himself said that may not be true.

[Colonel Green]

That doesn't make sense to me, sorry. Red herrings don't belong in companion encyclopedia books written by other people....because the "reveal" will presumably be in the actual series, so these clues will be absent for the overwhelming majority of the readers, if they are red herrings, then it's pretty dumb. If it's GRRM amusing himself at the expense of his biggest fanbase, then shame on him.

Um, why? The series generates tons of speculation already. Moreover, a red herring doesn't require a "resolution" in-story; no one in-story has ever speculated that Tyrion is Aerys and Joanna's son, and given that almost everyone from that era is dead now, it's dubious how they'd even make that connection. The point is to get readers speculating.

Moreover, even if Tyrion isn't Aerys' son (which I doubt he is), that doesn't invalidate this as backstory.

[Dofs]

I feel like I'm missing what's supposed to be positive about this for any character that readers might be emotionally invested in. The only person who looks better if A+J=T is Tywin friggin Lannister.

Joanna comes across worse which sucks because I really liked the little bits we've known of her so far. I saw her as kind of a Westerland version of Cat, a strong woman who while loving her husband and listening to his counsel also had her own opinions and had no problem ruling the Westerlands on her own when Tywin was in KL. But now she's either the pitiable victim of Aerys' sexual obsession (which is obviously not her fault but it always pisses me off when a female character gets some sort of rape backstory that wasn't really necessary to the plot) or she is a cheating schemer who tries to sleep her way to the top while at the same time seemingly having super little self-worth.

Plus I don't see any positive change for Tyrion either.

Biologically, I guess, he couldn't be considered a kinslayer anymore but morally/emotionally he'd still be one.

And I'm not sure if he'd handle the revelation about his real father well at all.

Instead of being trueborn he'd now be a bastard. He has to consider the possibility that his father raped his mother. Tywin actually had a valid reason all these years for not wanting him to get CR. Instead of an evil but capable father who abused him but also protected/clothed/fed him as befits a Lannister he now has an evil and crazy father who never even acknowledged him as his bastard son but instead mocked his mother's husband for fathering a monster.

Edit: In a weird way I think he might feel more guilty about killing Tywin now than when he believed he had killed his father.

And finally Tyrion being a Targ bastard and therefore becoming a dragonrider seems a much lamer story to me than Tyrion being a seemingly non-magical Lannister who manages to bond with a dragon by using his wits, his vast knowledge of dragonlore and a bit of luck.

I agree. What I'd also like to add that a major part of Tyrion's and Tywin's relationship is based of the fact, that out of all Tywin's children, Tyrion is the one who was most like him and was capable to continue Tywin's legacy, yet Tywin was blind to it. That actually was the last thing that Tywin heard in his life, that Tyrion is his copy! By making Tyrion not Tywin's son, Tywin's death loses its value, as well as Tyrion's whole arc in SoS, in which he was confronting his father that hated him just because Tyrion was a dwarf. If Tyrion is Aerys' son, then he was actually confronting a man who was justified in hating him because he was born from his wife's infidelity. Tyrion's whole being as a dwarf loses it's value.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

No, I don't, because we already have explanations for those things, and "because Tyrion's a secret Targaryen" weakens the entire story of his relationship with Tywin and the nature of his disabiity.

Perhaps I was unclear, I don't think Tyrion is a secret Targaryen. I'm saying that all of this business we have with Joanna could add depth to Tywin and his relationship with Tyrion and why it was so fucked up, without needing to lead to some revelation about Tyrion being Aerys's son

[Cas Stark]

Um, why? The series generates tons of speculation already. Moreover, a red herring doesn't require a "resolution" in-story; no one in-story has ever speculated that Tyrion is Aerys and Joanna's son, and given that almost everyone from that era is dead now, it's dubious how they'd even make that connection. The point is to get readers speculating.

Moreover, even if Tyrion isn't Aerys' son (which I doubt he is), that doesn't invalidate this as backstory.

If it isn't in the "story" it can't be a red herring, that's what I'm saying, and a companion encyclopedia written by other people isn't ASOIAF, so anything in this book, to me, can't be a red herring, because putting a clue in something that maybe 5% of the readers will see is bizarre. And if the answer itself isn't going to be resolved in the story, then it makes this extra detail even more trollish and seemingly just designed to create speculation among the faithful that the author never intends to resolve. Even more bizarre.

[Minsc]

or she is a cheating schemer who tries to sleep her way to the top while at the same time seemingly having super little self-worth.

Not disagreeing, but didn't Cersei tell Sansa that her mother taught her that tears and sex are a woman's tools or something like that?

[Dofs]

Not disagreeing, but didn't Cersei tell Sansa that her mother taught her that tears and sex are a woman's tools or something like that?

I think Cersei was speaking (or thinking) about her mother in some other situation, but I may be mistaken. Anyway, Joanna told Cersei only about tears, about sex Cersei deduced herself, I guess.

[Colonel Green]

The red herring is the inference that Tyrion might be Aerys' son. Nothing in the book actually says that, or requires that, to resolve anything. Only someone already aware of that theory would notice it.

[chrisdaw]

Not disagreeing, but didn't Cersei tell Sansa that her mother taught her that tears and sex are a woman's tools or something like that?

She taught her tears were a woman's weapon. It's ambiguous if she taught her directly or Cersei learned it from watching, and if the sex lesson came from her or Cersei puzzled that one out herself.

But the hints were there, married and controlled the second most powerful man in the realm, lusted after by the most powerful, people see what they want to see, or don't see what they don't want to as this thread demonstrates.

[Minsc]

I think Cersei was speaking (or thinking) about her mother in some other situation, but I may be mistaken. Anyway, Joanna told Cersei only about tears, about sex Cersei deduced herself, I guess.

Yeah, I just found the quote and I must have been thinking of another.

[Perfidious Algernon]

Well, there are also red herrings riddled throughout the narrative. Some questions are more important as questions than their answers are as answers.

Are we really just going to walk past this without acknowledging it?

Ran is Elio, right? Because I read that as saying "you won't be getting a smoking gun either way on this question, but it's important to keep in mind that these issues are to a certain extent unresolved in the eyes of some characters as well."

[Cas Stark]

She taught her tears were a woman's weapon. It's ambiguous if she taught her directly or Cersei learned it from watching, and if the sex lesson came from her or Cersei puzzled that one out herself.

But the hints were there, married and controlled the second most powerful man in the realm, lusted after by the most powerful, people see what they want to see, or don't see what they don't want to as this thread demonstrates.

So, Tywin Lannister, the victim. Who would have thunk it. An odd choice by the author if it's all true.

Manipulated and cuckholded by his wife who he loved and respected....and then saddled with raising a bastard dwarf sired by another man....no wonder he was a bitter asshole.

Yeah, I hate this idea.

[Lord Varys]

Nettles is a Dragonstonian girl by birth and has thus very likely as much dragonlord blood as all the other dragonseeds.