Heresy 140 [World of Ice & Fire Spoilers]

[Melifeather]

***snip***

:agree: Totally! Except politically if R bedded Lya that essentially screw his political aspirations. I can't ignore the clear political aspect and no doubt Rheagar by doing what he did was trying to curry the favor of Northern Lords by honoring a daughter of the North.But here's the problem with that and i can't believe i'm saying this. Sigh if the preceding is true Ray Ray having any romantic relations with Lya is a confounder. Those two things don't add up to sense he screwd himself, the realm for someone he just met. So its either the whole political assertion in the world book is nothing but a huge middle finger to the fans and just jerking us around throwing that as a bone with no pay. Or Lyanna and Rheagar never had any sort of romantic relationship at all. Unless it was a moment of weakness on their part and it was a one night stand that just got out of Sooooo "horniness" did the deed :dunno:

I could see this.

Come, my little Wolfmaid....come to the dark side. :devil: lol

[Matthew.]

...requires a good bit of supposition that's not actually supported in the text.

It really doesn't. The only theory that requires less non-textual supposition is Ned himself, by virtue of having publicly claimed Jon as his own.

Everyone from Robert early in aGoT claiming that Rhaegar "raped Lyanna repeatedly," to Barristan, who believes "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it" affirms the logistic plausibility of a physical relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Rhaegar abducting Lyanna isn't fan theory, it's straight from the text, which makes all alternatives, by default, more speculative.

The biggest in-text contradictions to R+L=J is the fact that Ned has publicly claimed Jon, and that the text never specifically confirms Lyanna giving birth to a child; a textual impediment that applies to all non-Ned theories. So, not only does any Lyanna+Whomever theory have to overcome the same obstacles as R+L, but it must also overcome the interpretation of Robert's Rebellion that we receive from several primary sources.

The most damning POV, IMHO, is Barristan. Barristan rode to the Trident with Rhaegar in the final moments of his life, and he still believes Rhaegar loved Lyanna -- if Rhaegar indeed were being falsely accused of an abduction, and Lyanna was actually in the Winterfell crypts with Mance, or wherever with Littlefinger, isn't this, you know, a good time for him to clear his name, as he's about to lead men into a decisive battle?

"So, hey guys, this Robert's Rebellion thing... I mean, this is crazy, right? I make one absent-minded chivalrous gesture to a Northern tomboy at a tourney, then head south for my annual Dornish vacation, and the whole realm goes to hell!"

[wolfmaid7]

Come, my little Wolfmaid....come to the dark side. :devil: lol

You evil Feather....evil. :devil:

It really doesn't. The only theory that requires less non-textual supposition is Ned himself, by virtue of having publicly claimed Jon as his own.

Everyone from Robert early in aGoT claiming that Rhaegar "raped Lyanna repeatedly," to Barristan, who believes "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it" affirms the logistic plausibility of a physical relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Rhaegar abducting Lyanna isn't fan theory, it's straight from the text, which makes all alternatives, by default, more speculative.

The biggest in-text contradictions to R+L=J is the fact that Ned has publicly claimed Jon, and that the text never specifically confirms Lyanna giving birth to a child; a textual impediment that applies to all non-Ned theories. So, not only does any Lyanna+Whomever theory have to overcome the same obstacles as R+L, but it must also overcome the interpretation of Robert's Rebellion that we receive from several primary sources.

The most damning POV, IMHO, is Barristan. Barristan rode to the Trident with Rhaegar in the final moments of his life, and he still believes Rhaegar loved Lyanna -- if Rhaegar indeed were being falsely accused of an abduction, and Lyanna was actually in the Winterfell crypts with Mance, or wherever with Littlefinger, isn't this, you know, a good time for him to clear his name, as he's about to lead men into a decisive battle?

"So, hey guys, this Robert's Rebellion thing... I mean, this is crazy, right? I make one absent-minded chivalrous gesture to a Northern tomboy at a tourney, then head south for my annual Dornish vacation, and the whole realm goes to hell!"

You bring up something that gets overlooked and its other peoples perception of Rheagar when it comes to Lyanna.This is where the possible subjective nature of beliefs need to be weighed against what we "know" and how sense comes into it.

We have Robert who says Rheagar raped Lyanna over and over again.Ned doesn't contradict that and in truth we have no idea where this whole rape idea came from.I doubt anyone was able to do a hymen check on that chick.

We have Barristan Selmy saying Rheagar loved Lyanna.But on what basis is he making that statement. He doesn't say that Rheagar and him had a conversation and Rheagar said " Yo i'm really digging that northern shorty.I down for her and she down wi me".

We even have Jon con in his recollections of something supeficial. It seems the perception of Rheagar loving Lya was made purely on the basis that.He suppossedly ran away with her,they were shacking up for sometime at a nigh conspicuous place so he must of loved her. But we have no POV's actually saying this dude talked about loving this girl

[Eira Seren]

You mean that storied Isle guarded by the green men which cannot be reached because anybody fool enough to try is either beset by storms or beset by a murder of crows.

Now OK Howland Reed supposedly did but he was a crannogman on a pilgrimage. The Targaryen Prince of Dragonstone is going to trigger storms and crows - and probably a sudden feeling he'd left something in the oven as well.

A bun?

[Eira Seren]

Oh yeah? Didn't realize you were the one started that, Eira! Else I would have ribbed you a bit when I let you in on my Crossroads Inn analysis... ;)

Yeah, but it was the definition of the word "Heddle" that really blew my mind. Add the crossroads, a Needle, A Gods Eye, etc... even a Reed here and there. Suddenly we've got ourselves a textile manufacturing center. Or a metaphorical loom, to say the least. (Missing tapestries at Castle Darry, even...)

. . .

Admittedly, I haven't been able to devote much time to reading the WB straight through. That said - my impression of the book is that, in some ways, it's more distracting than informative. Don't get me wrong... that's not a slam. But the summarized history of Oldtown and Battle Isle is sort of a case in point. Reading just that section, it feels suddenly like all the timelines collapse and lose meaning. See: Valyrians on dragons visiting Oldtown before the arrival of the First Men. Lots of good new material, for sure. Not a lot of help in sorting out sequence, cause and effect. (If you're into that sort of thing.)

Am guessing I wasn't the first to suggest it anyway. Go ahead and rib me if you want :laugh: Am still caught on the idea that the isle in the center of the God's Eye, in such a sort of central location

(and in proximity to the oft-mentioned Harrenhall, a name like the Trident and the Ruby Ford, which like many places seem to create a kind of refrain through the text, as does the Tourney, which may have served as a catalyst for the rebellion) might all be tied up with the magical heart of things. Then there's the way the island and the lake have a sort of concentric circle configuration. Can't quite put my finger on all of it, but it won't let go.

Though I do like your crossroads theory. The WB is distracting, but who knows? It's not as if we aren't wildly speculating at times anyway, at least I feel like am guessing about things GRRM has at least semi-approved.

And Wolfmaid, I really like your suggestion that the Valyrians threw off the balance by waking the dragons at an inopportune time.

[Black Crow]

I'm inclined to think that the stories of the old Valyrians may be a bit misty, to use GRRM's phrase. Simple shepherds pasturing their flocks on the slopes of active volcanoes and then discovering those wormy things inside said volcanoes seems a bit odd and I wonder therefore if we shouldn't look to the more attractive Land of the Long Summer as their original habitat before, under pressure from Ghis, taking refuge amongst the Fires and sacrificing their sheep and possibly their children in a bit of blood magic to re-animate fossilised dragon eggs a la Dany and so fight back against the Ghiscari.

ETA: and yes that magic may have upset things

[Ran]

These details of the abduction smell like Elio and Linda's doing and I would take them with a grain of salt....salt and maybe a lot of lemon, cuz it smells fishy to me.

The Year of the False Spring is 100% George.

[Black Crow]

Thank you very much for that clarification :thumbsup:

[alienarea]

Come, my little Wolfmaid....come to the dark side. :devil: lol

The force awakens

[Mithras]

so at what point does your belief that dragons are sins against god created by man come into play then? it sounds like you're suggesting that the Valyrians, who apparently tended sheep in 14 volcanoes (as one is wont to do), started feeding their flocks to the pre-existing dragons to tame them. Did someone else unleash the dragons, becoming the first dragon riders, and did the Valyrians, completely independently of this, who just happened to make their homes in volcanoes, accidentally start training said dragons, who happened to start roosting there?

just for the record, I really kind of hate Valyria, and I don't like dragons. I'm not trying to make them sound more competent or anything. So I don't have a pro-dragon agenda here. I just want to make sense of it.

I am still not sure about who "invented" the dragons but I don't think they were Valyrians. I find it likely that the dragons were created much before them and infested the world but after the Long Night, they were wiped out almost completely except few volcanic places. I think not all the dragons were slain by the dragonslayers (whatever they are). Since they are unnatural, dragons should not be a species that can survive on its own. Look at what Drogon is doing in the Dothraki Sea. Most of the dragons must have died out from starvation and perhaps that is how the dragons had to resort to Cannibalism.

[Mithras]

A random thought.

Craster was sacrificing his sons to the Others.

Considering "the dead things in the water", the Night's King tale and the Lovecraftian references in the world book, I find this quote strange:

The boy washed up on the third day. Maester Cressen had come down with the rest, to help put names to the dead. When they found the fool he was naked, his skin white and wrinkled and powdered with wet sand. Cressen had thought him another corpse, but when Jommy grabbed his ankles to drag him off to the burial wagon, the boy coughed water and sat up. To his dying day, Jommy had sworn that Patchface’s flesh was clammy cold.

No one ever explained those two days the fool had been lost in the sea. The fisherfolk liked to say a mermaid had taught him to breathe water in return for his seed.

Perhaps the dead things in the water were not created by the Others we know but the ones who saved Patchface and used his seed as a sacrifice.

[Melifeather]

The Year of the False Spring is 100% George.

Hello!

Were these details meant to be the way the rumors were told, or is this supposed to be a fact? There were rumors about how Sansa disappeared, but the facts were very different.

The account is written from the viewpoint of a maester. Was he simply reporting what was widely believed at the time, or is GRRM inserting facts here? Because the political motivations don't make any sense. If Rhaegar was gathering support, kidnapping a daughter of Winterfell isn't going to make you any friends.

[Frey family reunion]

All roads tend to lead back to Rhaegar and Lyanna. I agree with Matthew. that there is too much evidence linking Rhaegar with Lyanna's disappearance. But if we look back at the World Book it seems harder and harder to refute the fact that this was indeed an abduction of our young she wolf as opposed to a romantic liason. We are told that Rhaegar rides out with six of his closest friends and confidants where ten leagues from Harrenhal he "fell upon" Lyanna (presumably alone) and carried her off.

I'm told there is nothing that a girl likes better than to plan a surreptitious meeting with her secret boyfriend only for him to show up at their secret meeting place with six of his fraternity brothers. And don't give me the Rhaegar needed bodyguards when he traveled the realm, because we are told that he would go to the ruins of Summerhall and camp out without anyone else, including his Kingsguard accompanying him.

And I'm still of the mind that there might have been a "mystical" element to this abduction as well. Apparently the fact that Aegon V's wife is a Blackwood hasn't raised too many eyebrows, but it certainly raised mine. We are looking at the same genetic stew that brought us Bloodraven who in all probability has also lured a Stark into his clutches. And just because she is great grandma Blackwood as opposed to mother Blackwood doesn't mean much when Rhaegar's parents and grandparents were all brother and sister.

Also Rhaegar's harp playing may be a bit of a hint as well. In both Irish and Greek mythology the harp was used as a form of mystical compulsion. The Greeks tell us of the Sirens who led travelers to their doom with their singing and harp playing. This certainly fits Rhaegar and Lyanna's situation as well.

Anyway, whether mystical or not, I think Lyanna's disappearance and pregnancy were probably not consensual. A point that should be obvious if not for the fact that early on GRRM, has the buffoon King Robert voice his certainty that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Sometimes GRRM is able to hide a fact in plain sight, by having an unsympathetic character voice that fact. The reader is conditioned to disbelieve someone like Robert and immediately come to the opposite conclusion that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in fact in love. Which then leads the reader further down the rabbit hole to conclude that Jon is their love child and thus the rightful heir to the throne. This is the scenario that would be behind the Black and White doors of the House of the Undying. Which is the very reason we should not believe it.

[Syri0_F0rel]

If Rhaegar was gathering support, kidnapping a daughter of Winterfell isn't going to make you any friends.

I agree. There are conflicting opinions about the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar that would lead to very different conclusions. In The World of Ice and Fire book, we get Maester Yandel's version. He supports the rumor that Rhaegar was the mastermind behind the Tourney at Harrenhal with the intent to gather the lords to overthrow King Aery's. However, that does not happen. Could Maester Yandel be wrong about Rhaegar's motives? It is very possible.

Rhaegar believed his son was the Prince That Was Promised whose song was ASOIAF. I do not believe Rhaegar's infatuation with the prophecy was common knowledge. As far as I can tell, he only disclosed this information with Maester Aemon, therefore Maseter Yandel could only logically conclude Rhaegar arranged the Tourney at Harrenhal for a coup. There was no way for Yandel to suspect it was part of a scheme to meet Lyanna and fulfill the prophecy.

[Mithras]

What if the secret funder of the Tourney of Harrenhal was Illyrio? Not directly himself but through a loyal Lord in Westeros; perhaps Paxter Redwyne?

[butterbumps!]

Anyway, whether mystical or not, I think Lyanna's disappearance and pregnancy were probably not consensual. A point that should be obvious if not for the fact that early on GRRM, has the buffoon King Robert voice his certainty that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Sometimes GRRM is able to hide a fact in plain sight, by having an unsympathetic character voice that fact. The reader is conditioned to disbelieve someone like Robert and immediately come to the opposite conclusion that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in fact in love. Which then leads the reader further down the rabbit hole to conclude that Jon is their love child and thus the rightful heir to the throne. This is the scenario that would be behind the Black and White doors of the House of the Undying. Which is the very reason we should not believe it.

I don't think we're automatically inclined to disbelieve Robert or anything. The fact that Ned doesn't hate the man who allegedly repeatedly raped his sister is what makes the idea of rape seem fairly unlikely to me-- it's not simply an issue of Robert's being untrustworthy.

I'm not in the "love at first sight" camp or anything. Rather, I lean toward the idea that R+L began whatever this was as something closer to friendship or aligned interests than romance. She's trying to avoid an arranged marriage (the crown prince is the sort of authority figure an appeal about that might be made to, esp if he's trying to wrest control), and Rhaegar is trying to patch up the kingdom. Throw in the prophesy, and it's a perfect storm for their mingling. I'd bet a handsome sum of money that what actually happened was not the way they believed it would work out.

I am, however, in the camp that believes they probably did go through with a marriage. Not that this marriage means that Jon is the "rightful" king, or that anyone else will see that polygamous marriage as legitimate or anything.

Rather, I think this leads Jon's character to the next logical conclusion. He's made his identity as a bastard, largely because he has no choice; he'd much preferred to be trueborn throughout most of the novels. R+L+marriage=J raises the stakes of the reveal. Confronted with the prospect of not only having blood of the previous dynasty, but also of being trueborn, the choice for Jon will become much more of a conflict. If he turned out to be Rhaegar's bastard, where's the conflict in this? Of course continuing to identity as Ned's bastard is the easy choice.

Instead, confront Jon with the fact that he's an arguably legit son of the previous dynasty, and all of a sudden, his choice becomes whether to identify as a Targ and make a claim, and fulfill his lifelong dream of being trueborn.

I still stand by the idea that the twist is that readers, familiar with the hidden prince trope, will take R+L+marriage= J as Jon's being the "rightful" heir and expect him to press this claim, but in reality, there is no such thing as a "rightful heir" in this story, nor will Jon ever embrace this trueborn dynastic identity.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It really doesn't. The only theory that requires less non-textual supposition is Ned himself, by virtue of having publicly claimed Jon as his own.

Everyone from Robert early in aGoT claiming that Rhaegar "raped Lyanna repeatedly," to Barristan, who believes "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it" affirms the logistic plausibility of a physical relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Rhaegar abducting Lyanna isn't fan theory, it's straight from the text, which makes all alternatives, by default, more speculative.

The biggest in-text contradictions to R+L=J is the fact that Ned has publicly claimed Jon, and that the text never specifically confirms Lyanna giving birth to a child; a textual impediment that applies to all non-Ned theories. So, not only does any Lyanna+Whomever theory have to overcome the same obstacles as R+L, but it must also overcome the interpretation of Robert's Rebellion that we receive from several primary sources.

The most damning POV, IMHO, is Barristan. Barristan rode to the Trident with Rhaegar in the final moments of his life, and he still believes Rhaegar loved Lyanna -- if Rhaegar indeed were being falsely accused of an abduction, and Lyanna was actually in the Winterfell crypts with Mance, or wherever with Littlefinger, isn't this, you know, a good time for him to clear his name, as he's about to lead men into a decisive battle?

"So, hey guys, this Robert's Rebellion thing... I mean, this is crazy, right? I make one absent-minded chivalrous gesture to a Northern tomboy at a tourney, then head south for my annual Dornish vacation, and the whole realm goes to hell!"

So, is it your argument that, because the "Rhaegar-As-Jon's-BioDad" theory requires less non-textual supposition than other options, it's therefore plausible? Is Robert's accusation that Rheagar raped Lyanna actually supported by the text? Does Selmy's belief that Rhaegar "loved" Lyanna imply a sexual relationship? Is it more plausible that Rhaegar loved her, or that he raped her? If sex was involved, to paraphrase Tyrion, do you think she'd have been more willing before, or after learning of the deaths of her father and brother? Logistic plausibility is one thing. What about plausibility of character? How does an "R+L" scenario preserve the integrity of Lyanna's character as portrayed in our text? How does it preserve the integrity of Rhaegar's?

The more I consider it the more I wonder if Frey Family Reunion is right, and all Westeros was simply compelled by glamour to fall deeply in love with the silver prince and his silver harp. You know, until they heard he stole that Stark girl, and bore her away with her long dim hair...

[Melifeather]

If we look at the kidnapping with a strictly political viewpoint, the person with the most plausible motive was Aerys. If Aerys feared that Rhaegar was planning a coup it would seem logical that he would retaliate and attempt to denigrate his son's character.

[butterbumps!]

If Rhaegar was aware of the massive political bloc forming through marriages (how could he not be) and wanted to neutralize it (as anyone with a bit of political sense would have in his position), and if Lyanna made it plain that she did not want to marry Robert, then I'd say that Rhaegar has pretty ample motive to make common political cause with Lyanna. He'd be breaking up the power bloc, and appeasing the largest of those Houses by promoting Lyanna to queen, giving it no reason to rebel and creating a direct connection to the ruling dynasty. I really think something went wrong in the execution.

[Frey family reunion]

I don't think we're automatically inclined to disbelieve Robert or anything. The fact that Ned doesn't hate the man who allegedly repeatedly raped his sister is what makes the idea of rape seem fairly unlikely to me-- it's not simply an issue of Robert's being untrustworthy.

I'm not in the "love at first sight" camp or anything. Rather, I lean toward the idea that R+L began whatever this was as something closer to friendship or aligned interests than romance. She's trying to avoid an arranged marriage (the crown prince is the sort of authority figure an appeal about that might be made to, esp if he's trying to wrest control), and Rhaegar is trying to patch up the kingdom. Throw in the prophesy, and it's a perfect storm for their mingling. I'd bet a handsome sum of money that what actually happened was not the way they believed it would work out.

I am, however, in the camp that believes they probably did go through with a marriage. Not that this marriage means that Jon is the "rightful" king, or that anyone else will see that polygamous marriage as legitimate or anything.

Rather, I think this leads Jon's character to the next logical conclusion. He's made his identity as a bastard, largely because he has no choice; he'd much preferred to be trueborn throughout most of the novels. R+L+marriage=J raises the stakes of the reveal. Confronted with the prospect of not only having blood of the previous dynasty, but also of being trueborn, the choice for Jon will become much more of a conflict. If he turned out to be Rhaegar's bastard, where's the conflict in this? Of course continuing to identity as Ned's bastard is the easy choice.

Instead, confront Jon with the fact that he's an arguably legit son of the previous dynasty, and all of a sudden, his choice becomes whether to identify as a Targ and make a claim, and fulfill his lifelong dream of being trueborn.

I still stand by the idea that the twist is that readers, familiar with the hidden prince trope, will take R+L+marriage= J as Jon's being the "rightful" heir and expect him to press this claim, but in reality, there is no such thing as a "rightful heir" in this story, nor will Jon ever embrace this trueborn dynastic identity.

Robert Baratheon is shown as abusive, impetuous, unfaithful to his wife, gluttonous, consorts with prostitutes and has a hatred that Eddard believes borders on the irrational when it comes to the Targaryens.

Rhaegar is portrayed as honorable, attractive, sensitive, romantic would not consort with prostitutes.

GRRM has painted a picture where the reader assumes, Lyanna would have chosen Rhaegar over Robert. Thus the idea that Lyanna would have run off with Rhaegar when she was promised to Robert is understandable to the reader. It fits the fantasy archetype of the young maiden running off to fulfill her forbidden romance.

But when you take a hard look at the facts it really doesn't add up. There is much to suggest that the Harrenhall tournament may have been rigged. We are told that the tournament had a shadow financier (the World Books suggests Rhaegar, though I could imagine a scenario where it was House Hightower). Baristan believes his biggest failing as a knight occurred when he lost the tournament to Rhaegar. Snowfyre has pointed out a bit of a discrepency between Barristan's shame at Harrenhall and his earlier observation that anyone can lose a tournament no matter their prowress on any given day. If so, why is Barristan so shamed by the Harrenhall tournament. Snowfyre has suggested that Barristan may have been ordered to lose to Rhaegar. Then couple this with the fact that Rhaegar just happened to have a crown of rare winter roses on hand to give to Lyanna suggests that the outcome of this tournament was never in any real doubt.

Now the World book tells us that Rhaegar rode out with six of his closest friends and confidants. Once again this doesn't really jive with two people out to have a secret affair. It does jive with the scenario of Rhaegar abducting Lyanna, however. And don't forget, Lyanna is what, all of fifteen years of age when she disappears?

And as Snowfyre points out, at what point does Lyanna realize her fantasy affair with Rhaegar has gone too far and returns to her family? When her brother is imprisoned? When her brother and father are killed? It seems odd that not a word is heard from Lyanna during the horrific events that were occurring to her family. Unless of course Lyanna was being held some place against her will.

Which brings us to the tower of "joy" and the presence of the three kingsguards. Were they there to protect Lyanna? Or were they there to protect Lyanna's child? Perhaps even from Lyanna herself.