Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the consequences of their actions (assuming it was consensual elopement)

[Leonardo]

It's less awesome that he set up the realm for massive instability, though.

A united kingdom fielding a massive army against the others is probably better than a lone prince, promised or not.

Eh if you think about it he really got rid of two mad kings and their kin in one go, and made room for. the most able man in the kingdoms to rule: Jon Arryn.

[The Wolves]

Eh if you think about it he really got rid of two mad kings and their kin in one go, and made room for. the most able man in the kingdoms to rule: Jon Arryn.

He did such a good job that Jon Arryn.

[Fat Mac]

He did such a good job that Jon Arryn.

You clearly mean that as sarcasm, but Jon Arryn DID do a good job.

[Leonardo]

The only mistake arryn ever made was not being able to see through LF, and no one has really beenable to do that so its hard to hold against him

[Elm Tree]

Lyanna was sixteen or seventeen, fourteen sounds very very creepy.

And I don't really know, given the personalities, the intellects and the knowledge Lyanna and Rhaegar supposedly had, there has to be something about this deal that makes it all clear. I don't think they would do this without a reason, only for love. Maybe something went wrong in the communication, that Benjen was to give a message to Rickard/Brandon/Eddard, and that someone else was to do the same for Rhaegar.

Ok, I honestly have no idea, I just don't want them to be as stupid as they look right now.

[Mal Malenkirk]

The only mistake arryn ever made was not being able to see through LF, and no one has really beenable to do that so its hard to hold against him

He's also been unable or unwilling to prevent the realm to go under massive debts.

[The Wolves]

You clearly mean that as sarcasm, but Jon Arryn DID do a good job.

How?

He didn't do a good job with fixing things with Dorne cause years later they have been planning to committ treason and plotting revenge. Arryn fixed nothing there he couldn't even give Dorne the Mountain or Amory.

The treasury went empty and country got into debt all on his watch.

He rewarded the Lannister's for their treachery and murder letting them gain power throughout his reign.

He is responsible for Littlefinger

All Arryn is credited for is those few years of peace and I wouldn't call it that when treason, murder, and corruption was happening during that time in the court he was suppose to be running.

[Natalia Borgia]

I think Lyanna was impulsive. At this point we do not know if she was abducted however while re-reading ASOS Bran chapter when Jojen tells hims about the KotLT Jojen asks I think 2 times "did your lord father never tell you this story?"

Aerys was PISSED at the KotLT and Lyanna cried when Rhaegar played the harp. Rhaegar knew Lyanna was the mystery knight he helped her hide the armor- he played the harp to her alone and they fell in LOVE. At some point Lyanna would have sent a raven to Brandon to let him know she was safe. He assumes she is lying about voluntarily going with Rhaegar and tells Ned and Robert she has been abducted. At this point Brandon has gone to KL and so has his father and they are dead. Jon Arryn gets a raven demanding his wards be turned over but he calls the banners. Presumably Rhaegar may have convinced him and others to turn on Aerys but when Rhaegar goes missing for months they reconsider Targ support/rule. Instead the rebelling lords and houses decide the young lord of Storms End who has the Lannisters, the Stormlands, the North, Riverrun, and the Vale on his side is a better bet ( and easier to control) as king than the "foreign Targaryens".

Lyanna is just trying to not die when she realizes that as the Knight who made the Crazy King look like a fool she and her brothers are now in danger. Rhaegar finds her wild northern beauty and honor appealing and a stark contrast ( he he) to his delicate yet spicy wife. He accidentally falls in love with her. Aerys demanding the lives of the wards of the Warden of the East and holding the Warden of the West's son as a hostage in the KG doesn't calculate into the equation because it would not make a story. Just like Robb falling for Jeyne makes no POLITICAL sense- he is as clueless as his poor doomed aunt was.

In the end they saw how their actions ruined the kingdom but hey "the heart wants what the heart wants".

Time for beers. :cheers:

[David Selig]

He's also been unable or unwilling to prevent the realm to go under massive debts.

He appointed a man who increased the crown revenue 10 freaking times without raising taxes significantly. Robert still spent more than the income. Not sure what more he could do short of a coup.

[Fat Mac]

How?

He didn't do a good job with fixing things with Dorne cause years later they have been planning to committ treason and plotting revenge. Arryn fixed nothing there he couldn't even give Dorne the Mountain or Amory.

It's almost like Doran was plotting in secret or something. Also, Doran's gripe was not with the Crown, but with the Lannisters.

The treasury went empty and country got into debt all on his watch.

Most likely because of LF, who no one could see through, as Leonardo pointed out above.

He rewarded the Lannister's for their treachery and murder letting them gain power throughout his reign.

He rewarded the Lannisters because it was the easiest thing to do to settle down the rebellion. The Sack of KL was not admirable, but it got the Targaryens out of the way. When it turns out Lyanna died, Robert needed a queen, and Cersei was definitely the best option from a political and militaristic standpoint.

And I'm sorry, the Lannisters didn't gain that much power throughout Robert's reign at all. Cersei was Queen, yes, but Robert often ignored her. It's not like she had a say on his policies. In addition, the small council were all Robert's men, except for Pycelle, and LF and Varys, who's loyalties do not lie with the Lannisters. The Lannisters ruling through Robert is one of the biggest misconceptions many posters on this forum seem to have.

He is responsible for Littlefinger

I'll repeat what I already said and what Leonardo pointed out. NO ONE saw through LF. He was a small time lord that was fantastic at his job. Who wouldn't appoint someone like that?

All Arryn is credited for is those few years of peace and I wouldn't call it that when treason, murder, and corruption was happening during that time in the court he was suppose to be running.

14 years of peace is damn good for Westeros. Plotting and treason always happen in courts, especially at the capital of a gigantic kingdom. Also, look at the context. Jon Arryn was now tasked with running a Kingdom with a new ruler from a new family, overthrowing the family that had ruled for 283 years. It's not an easy task, and Arryn definitely did one of the best jobs you could ask a man to do. It's not his fault Jaime and Cersei were fucking each other, nor was it his fault the Martells were plotting against the Lannisters.

Needless to say, Arryn did an alright job for the position he was in. The only man who might have done better was.... dare I say.... Tywin Lannister?

[Mal Malenkirk]

He appointed a man who increased the crown revenue 10 freaking times without raising taxes significantly. Robert still spent more than the income. Not sure what more he could do short of a coup.

Bollocks. Increase revenues without increasing taxes? How? Magic?

You can raise revenue without raising taxes is to increase the number of taxpayers or increase their wealth.

I am not under the impression that there was a demography boom nor that their was a raise of the middle class in the last few years.

You can also start some Royal owned venture. Are you aware of any?

So let's be realistic here. Littlefinger visibly did only two things to provide the required gold dragons; fiddle around with the taxation system (while making sure to benefit along the way) and borrow extensively.

[Leonardo]

Tyrion clearly explains the LF is definitely making investments and increasing profits, so even while embezzling he was making tons of coin.

[Blackfish Tully]

Bollocks. Increase revenues without increasing taxes? How? Magic?

You can raise revenue without raising taxes is to increase the number of taxpayers or increase their wealth.

I am not under the impression that there was a demography boom nor that their was a raise of the middle class in the last few years.

You can also start some Royal owned venture. Are you aware of any?

So let's be realistic here. Littlefinger visibly did only two things to provide the required gold dragons; fiddle around with the taxation system (while making sure to benefit along the way) and borrow extensively.

That's is exactly what he did.

" he was clever. He did not simply collect the gold and lock in a treasure vault, no. He paid the king's debts in promises, and put the king's gold to work. He bought wagons, shops, ships, houses. He bought grain when it was plentiful and sold bread when it was scarce. He bought wool from the north and linen from the south and lace from Lys, stored it, moved it, dyed it, sold it. The golden dragons bred and multiplied, and Littlefinger lent them out and brought them home with hatchlings."

[Lord Lannister]

If the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna was consensual they really screwed up on a number of levels. I suppose in an effort to keep the relationship secret the whole thing might have appeared very suspicious on the outside, but why wouldn't they have come clean when Rickard challenged Rhaegar? Was his pride that important to him? He isn't presented that way.

I can't see the Starks as the sort that would be prideful enough to start a war for Lyanna's honor when she was the one who cast is aside as much as Rhaegar. Robert possibly would, but the Riverlands and Vale suddenly wouldn't have much of a stake in this matter either.

[Blackfish Tully]

If the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna was consensual they really screwed up on a number of levels. I suppose in an effort to keep the relationship secret the whole thing might have appeared very suspicious on the outside, but why wouldn't they have come clean when Rickard challenged Rhaegar? Was his pride that important to him? He isn't presented that way.

I can't see the Starks as the sort that would be prideful enough to start a war for Lyanna's honor when she was the one who cast is aside as much as Rhaegar. Robert possibly would, but the Riverlands and Vale suddenly wouldn't have much of a stake in this matter either.

Rhaegar probably figured that once Lyanna had the baby he needed he could smooth everything else over . He was probably being naive about that but if Brandon does not go to Kings Landing then he may have had time to have the child and then return to Kings Landing and sort things out . If Lyanna sends a note to her father saying it was consensual then he probably does not go to war and Robert would be pissed but he cannot do anything on his own.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

My own view is that relations between Aerys and Rhaegar were so bad at this point, that without Brandon demanding that Rhaegar come out and die, Aerys would probably have arrested his son over this, maybe even executed him.

:agree: We can't give any TWOIAF spoilers here, but this is absolutely correct.

Mostly Targeryan fans say "how could they know things would go this bad?" but if anyone could predict the future it would be Rhaegar and Lyanna.Lyanna knew his family, she knew they wouldn't take kindly to this, Rhaegar must have known Robert would go full rage, I mean their motto is "Ours is the fury" if that didn't warn Rhaegar a little then he was a bigger retard then I suspected.

Not with the new information revealed. Doubt GRRM is just going to confirm the first impression we had of these events from AGoT, and yet, that's what so many of these threads are doing. Let the author finish telling the story.

It's less awesome that he set up the realm for massive instability, though.

A united kingdom fielding a massive army against the others is probably better than a lone prince, promised or not.

On the TWOIAF threads, I have written several posts about why I think the realm would've had a civil war in the 280s no matter what Rhaegar and/or Lyanna did. In fact, it can be argued that a divided crown/dance without dragons would have been worse than the royalists vs. rebels scenario of RR. Be careful thinking AUs hold better potential outcomes.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Lyanna was sixteen or seventeen, fourteen sounds very very creepy.

Yes, she was fourteen, fifteen at most. Lyanna died when she was barely sixteen. Yes, it is creepy. Your point?

[SeanF]

On the TWOIAF threads, I have written several posts about why I think the realm would've had a civil war in the 280s no matter what Rhaegar and/or Lyanna did. In fact, it can be argued that a divided crown/dance without dragons would have been worse than the royalists vs. rebels scenario of RR. Be careful thinking AUs hold better potential outcomes.

Could you elaborate, please?

[SeanF]

Yes, she was fourteen, fifteen at most. Lyanna died when she was barely sixteen. Yes, it is creepy. Your point?

She was 15 when they eloped/she was kidnapped.

[Elm Tree]

Yes, she was fourteen, fifteen at most. Lyanna died when she was barely sixteen. Yes, it is creepy. Your point?

Interpreted wiki information wrong. Point? I thought people were wrong, guess not.