El Guapo Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I think some people have a Sansa like naiveté when it comes to Robb's campaign in the Westerlands. Did we not forget that Jamie and Brienne came across an atrocity commitetd by Stark men in the Riverlands? Why do you think GRRM included that scene in the book? What tdo people really think paying Tywin back in kind for the devastation he caued really means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I think some people have a Sansa like naiveté when it comes to Robb's campaign in the Westerlands. Did we not forget that Jamie and Brienne came across an atrocity commitetd by Stark men in the Riverlands? Why do you think GRRM included that scene in the book? What tdo people really think paying Tywin back in kind for the devastation he caued really means? Yea, it is a bizarre thing to say unless the devastation is somewhat comparable. And that means burning villages and fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I don't think Robb's men behaved as badly as Tywin's. It is very much Ned Stark's philosophy that you do not consort with, or wink at, evil men. So Ned would not tolerate the Gregors/Crasters of the world serving him. He would take ice to go and deal with them. However, I do not think that means Starks and Tullys are above torching villages and putting the inhabitants to the sword. We know Hoster Tully did that in Robert's Rebellion and there's no sign Ned despises Hoster.Agree completely with thisTo el guapo, yes northmen did rape in the riverlands but it seems pretty clear to me that it was men under Roose's command who did so. Robb has no reason to command men to do this, nor any need. And yes the northmen did attack the west but not to the same level. Nowhere near. Robb attacked castles, mines and livestock. Only Karstark is said to be doing damage to what could be construed as peasants. And yes this was awful and bad on Robb's part.But not equal or anywhere close to Tywin or his death squads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Because that is what we are told in the books. So you are basing all this on an interpretation of an extremely vague phrase while dismissing everything else we know to the contrary. Paying back in kind in this context can mean anything from attacking Westerlands and moving the fight to the enemy to going full Tywin. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Robb went full Tywin and it's exceedingly unlikely. We know what Robb's goal was - to destroy Lannister military strength and draw Tywin away from he Riverlands, and what he's actually done. Everything we know about Robb points to the lower part of the spectrum. Robb wasn't in the Westerlands to kill as many civilians as possible and torch every field while avoiding battle - Tywin was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 So you are basing all this on an interpretation of an extremely vague phrase while dismissing everything else we know to the contrary. Paying back in kind in this context can mean anything from attacking Westerlands and moving the fight to the enemy to going full Tywin. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Robb went full Tywin and it's exceedingly unlikely. We know what Robb's goal was - to destroy Lannister military strength and draw Tywin away from he Riverlands, and what he's actually done. Everything we know about Robb points to the lower part of the spectrum. Robb wasn't in the Westerlands to kill as many civilians as possible and torch every field while avoiding battle - Tywin was.Somebody even says laughingly that there's no quicker way to get Tywin moving then to put his gold in danger ie this is what they're targeting. Robb targets the mines and castles of the west as this will draw tywins eye quicker them a few peasant deaths. When has Tywin ever cared for peasants? Never. So why target them? Answer:you don'tWhy did Tywin target the riverlands peasants? Because he knew that would draw ned and edmure out. And because it makes senseBut ya...stop being so biased everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I think some people have a Sansa like naiveté when it comes to Robb's campaign in the Westerlands. Did we not forget that Jamie and Brienne came across an atrocity commitetd by Stark men in the Riverlands? Why do you think GRRM included that scene in the book? What tdo people really think paying Tywin back in kind for the devastation he caued really means? The Stark men who hung the tavern wenches for sleeping with Lannisters were Bolton men. Robb Stark never knew about it, nor did he order it. Had he known about it, I suspect he would have had the men who commited the actions hung. I think paying Tywin back for devastation means burning and running off cattle. I interpret it this way because it does not fit into the character of Robb Stark to order rape and murder of innocent people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I do think rickard Stark did a fair bit of damage to the common folk though and robb should have reigned him in. Still nothing compared to the bloody mummers and Lorch and cleganes men....how anyone can even think that is beyond me after all the descriptions we get of then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I do think rickard Stark did a fair bit of damage to the common folk though and robb should have reigned him in. Still nothing compared to the bloody mummers and Lorch and cleganes men....how anyone can even think that is beyond me after all the descriptions we get of then Did you mean Karstark or did Robb resurrect his zombie grandfather to take revenge on the Lannisters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I do think rickard Stark did a fair bit of damage to the common folk though and robb should have reigned him in. Still nothing compared to the bloody mummers and Lorch and cleganes men....how anyone can even think that is beyond me after all the descriptions we get of then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Did you mean Karstark or did Robb resurrect his zombie grandfather to take revenge on the Lannisters?Lol KarstarkAlthough now that you mention it...Robb could have been using blood magic. He fed his wolf a heart, and word on the street is he turned into a wolf and attacked the Freys...maybe it was all to get in grand dad back? #somepeopleslogic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 The Stark men who hung the tavern wenches for sleeping with Lannisters were Bolton men. Robb Stark never knew about it, nor did he order it. Had he known about it, I suspect he would have had the men who commited the actions hung. I think paying Tywin back for devastation means burning and running off cattle. I interpret it this way because it does not fit into the character of Robb Stark to order rape and murder of innocent people. Robb wanted to let loose the IB on the West, what do you think that would have entailed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Robb wanted to let loose the IB on the West, what do you think that would have entailed? The insinuation there is that Ironborn ALWAYS rape and murder. I think it's been made clear that is not necessarily the case. I don't recall the forces under Theon and Asha doing a great deal of that. Nevertheless, the point can be made that "taking salt wives" amounts to kidnapping and rape. I suspect that Robb Stark may not have understood just who he was trying to get into bed with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Robb wanted to let loose the IB on the West, what do you think that would have entailed? Taking Lannisport and Casterly Rock if Theon's plan is anything to go by. ETA: The whole plan seems to rely on a surprise attack and basically mortally crippling the Lannisters before they knew what hit them. I doubt happy rape and pillage would be a major part of it as that requires a longer term commitment to be effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Yea, it is a bizarre thing to say unless the devastation is somewhat comparable. And that means burning villages and fields. Burning castles, villages and fields for certain. Pillaging, and carrying off goods and livestock, or else, destroying the ones that couldn't be carried off. Killing anyone who offered resistance. I don't know if they went as far as mass murder, torture, rape, and enslavement, although it would seem out of character for Robb to order these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Robb wanted to let loose the IB on the West, what do you think that would have entailed?Does Robb strike you as the guy in the know about the ironborn, balon greyjoy, and the old way? Robb imagined ironborn allies. The fall of lannisport and occupation of the west. The fall of the Lannisters. Not widespread rape and murder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Burning castles, villages and fields for certain. Pillaging, and carrying off goods and livestock, or else, destroying the ones that couldn't be carried off. Killing anyone who offered resistance. No castles or villages were burnt. Pillaging, certainly. Killing those who offered resistance, probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Taking Lannisport and Casterly Rock if Theon's plan is anything to go by.ETA: The whole plan seems to rely on a surprise attack and basically mortally crippling the Lannisters before they knew what hit them. I doubt happy rape and pillage would be a major part of it as that requires a longer term commitment to be effective. It has to be remembered, as well, that at the time Robb sent Theon to Balon, the Ironborn had been forced to stop living by the old ways. No more salt wives. No more iron price. It was Balon and his brothers who were obsessed with bringing back the old ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 On the Ironborn, Robb needed their help and Ned did too when he was alive. You can't do anything about their habits in that situation. If they sacked Lannisport and/or towns/villages in the west there would be rapes, slavery and murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Burning castles, villages and fields for certain. Pillaging, and carrying off goods and livestock, or else, destroying the ones that couldn't be carried off. Killing anyone who offered resistance. I don't know if they went as far as mass murder, torture, rape, and enslavement, although it would seem out of character for Robb to order these.There doesn't seem to have been any burnt castles. And any resistance was met with force but not all of the resisting soldiers were killed. Look at the Crag. It was stormed. Robb was injured. And it was left unburnt and it's people unmolested I imagine fields and villages were burnt by Karstark alone. The Greatjon was concentrating on gold mines, robb on castles. And the livestock was on Mormont so I would say most was taken, and military supplies were taken or burnt.There doesn't seem to be a concerted focus on the civilian population. Once again ill say I believe because tywin wouldn't care for them and them dying isn't going to get him moving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 No castles or villages were burnt. Pillaging, certainly. Killing those who offered resistance, probably. based on what? Certainly nothing in the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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