:0 I dislike the Starks :0

[Frey Pie]

Thing is everyone knew Tywin couldn't care less about his subjects being killed and tortured. He was a completely heartless scumbag and everyone knew it. He won't rush back to defend his smallfolk even if thousands of them are being tortured. So on a purely pragmatic and strategic level it doesn't make military sense for Robb's army to engage in such a campaign of terror.

Precisely. I made this point earlier. Even the someone in the book makes this point when they say something along the lines of nothings going to make Tywin coke back quicker then taking his gold

As for starting the war. The Lannisters drew first blood with throwing Bran out of a tower and the assassination attempt. Cat made it worse by taking Tyrion. Jaime escalated it by attacking ned. Ned escalated it by ordering the execution of gregor. But true hostilities were started by Tywin

[Annara Snow]

He knew all along about the plot to overthrow Cersei and his grandchildren on the grounds of bastardry.

How?

Tywin never even wanted to admit to himself that Cersei and Jaime were doing it.

[Annara Snow]

You don't actually believe Tywin that he started that war for Tyrion do you?

"For Tyrion"? Of course not. He started it for himself. Nobody kidnaps Tywin Lannister's son, even if he hates said son.

[Chaircat Meow]

How?

Tywin never even wanted to admit to himself that Cersei and Jaime were doing it.

Careful not to confuse the incest with the accusations of bastardy. You can know Jon and Stannis were going to use bastards and book to execute Cersei and grandchildren without knowing who they intended to say was the father. And Cersei was on the verge of telling Tyrion Jon suspected the kids were not hers in CoK before Tyrion brought up Jaime and got slapped. That said, it is just your assumption Tywin did not know about the incest as well, he may have done and not told Kevan. Only telling people what they need to know is very much his MO.

[Chaircat Meow]

"For Tyrion"? Of course not. He started it for himself. Nobody kidnaps Tywin Lannister's son, even if he hates said son.

You know what I meant.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

As an alternative, subjects are even better off when the lord is not starting a war because he's pissed off at someone again for an insult against his family.

Ned commits treason, is arrested, confesses his guilt in front of a public audience and his son raises his banners and goes to war leaving the people of the North defenseless.

You're right, all the smallfolk would be better off if Lords did not react to insults against their families.

[Jslay427]

I have trolled a time or two, and let it be said that my skills nowhere near equal the power of this glorious OP.

[Frey Pie]

Ned commits treason, is arrested, confesses his guilt in front of a public audience and his son raises his banners and goes to war leaving the people of the North defenseless.

You're right, all the smallfolk would be better off if Lords did not react to insults against their families.

Ya the north was incredibly defenseless with the thousands of men up there, along with having all their enemies down south being fought by their Lord

[devilish]

Ya the north was incredibly defenseless with the thousands of men up there, along with having all their enemies down south being fought by their Lord

Not really. Despite their recent mishaps there's still juice left in the North. Stannis knows that and he's trying to build another army there. Robb's plan was stupid in so many ways

a - he moved South too quickly and with relatively few banner men. He could have built a bigger army if he only waited. He should have used the time to lay low, gather the resources he needed and forged some decent alliances.

b - the North have ample human resources and some of the fiercest soldiers around. The problem is that their resources are spread away. Robb should have left someone loyal and capable enough to gather these resources either to defend the North or act as backup if things get messy.

Robb underestimated what the Starks represented

a - loyal and honorable people. Any possible contender to the iron throne would love to have them as allies

b - the leaders of the biggest land in Westeros which include ample human resources and some fierce soldiers

c - unlike all other contenders they don't give a frek about the iron throne.

I won't be surprised if Tywin Lannister would have gladly sent Sansa back and have Joffrey dethroned (lets face it the boy was trouble for everyone including the Lannister's legacy) if Robb offered to bend the knee and offer support. If he would have been foolish enough to refuse then he would have had no chance on earth to overwhelm a joint army of Tyrells-Starks-Tullys (under Renly).

[Frey Pie]

Not really. Despite their recent mishaps there's still juice left in the North. Stannis knows that and he's trying to build another army there. Robb's plan was stupid in so many ways

a - he moved South too quickly and with relatively few banner men. He could have built a bigger army if he only waited. He should have used the time to lay low, gather the resources he needed and forged some decent alliances.

b - the North have ample human resources and some of the fiercest soldiers around. The problem is that their resources are spread away. Robb should have left someone loyal and capable enough to gather these resources either to defend the North or act as backup if things get messy.

Robb underestimated what the Starks represented

a - loyal and honorable people. Any possible contender to the iron throne would love to have them as allies

b - the leaders of the biggest land in Westeros which include ample human resources and some fierce soldiers

c - unlike all other contenders they don't give a frek about the iron throne.

I won't be surprised if Tywin Lannister would have gladly sent Sansa back and have Joffrey dethroned (lets face it the boy was trouble for everyone including the Lannister's legacy) if Robb offered to bend the knee and offer support. If he would have been foolish enough to refuse then he would have had no chance on earth to overwhelm a joint army of Tyrells-Starks-Tullys (under Renly).

I don't think you got the tone of my post...which was sarcastic

Robb could have gathered a much larger army but he didn't have the luxury of time. Ned was rotting in a dungeon. The riverlands was under siege. Had he waited riverrun may have already been taken, with edmure slapped up in chains in the bowels of Casterly Rock

And Rodrick was as loyal as you could want. He's just not all that bright and the writing for the ironborn invasion is as contrived as could be. The idiot ball was carried far in thay section of the books

And robb did look to Renly as an ally. Renly had no right to rule the north or riverlands, under any law. Robb would have bent to Stannis had stannis declared himself a contender

[SeanF]

Thing is everyone knew Tywin couldn't care less about his subjects being killed and tortured. He was a completely heartless scumbag and everyone knew it. He won't rush back to defend his smallfolk even if thousands of them are being tortured. So on a purely pragmatic and strategic level it doesn't make military sense for Robb's army to engage in such a campaign of terror.

Tywin's subjects grow the food, pay the taxes, and provide the foot-soldiers that Tywin needs, so there would be a reason, from a military point of view, for brutalising them.

Nevertheless, what we know of Robb's character suggests that he would refrain from inflicting the worst barbarities on them. Robb punished the murderers of the Lannister squires; he spared Osha's life, in circumstances where no one would have condemned him for killing her. I imagine his campaign in the Westerlands was like Sherman's march through Georgia, which involved torching everything in the path of his army, but didn't involve mass murder and rape.

[Mikkel]

I imagine his campaign in the Westerlands was like Sherman's march through Georgia, which involved torching everything in the path of his army, but didn't involve mass murder and rape.

I didn't know about that, interesting. And yes, that seems very much like I'd imagine Robb's campaign - including the fostering of a fair deal of antipathy in those who was subjected to it.

[Chaircat Meow]

Tywin's subjects grow the food, pay the taxes, and provide the foot-soldiers that Tywin needs, so there would be a reason, from a military point of view, for brutalising them.

Nevertheless, what we know of Robb's character suggests that he would refrain from inflicting the worst barbarities on them. Robb punished the murderers of the Lannister squires; he spared Osha's life, in circumstances where no one would have condemned him for killing her. I imagine his campaign in the Westerlands was like Sherman's march through Georgia, which involved torching everything in the path of his army, but didn't involve mass murder and rape.

A poor example given those boys were nobles under Robb's protection.

Personally I think Robb's men put the smallfolk of the west to the sword. In CoK Tyrion said that was the way of war. He only sniffed out Gregor's handiwork when he heard a nobleman's wife had been raped.

[SeanF]

A poor example given those boys were nobles under Robb's protection.

.

Why spare Osha, then? Had he agreed to Theon's suggestion, and let his direwolves rip her apart, no one would have condemned him.

[Chaircat Meow]

Why spare Osha, then? Had he agreed to Theon's suggestion, and let his direwolves rip her apart, no one would have condemned him.

Huh. He was showing her mercy.

There's just a lot of evidence that 'putting the smallfolk to the sword' is SOP in westeros.

[Maid So Fair]

Huh. He was showing her mercy.

There's just a lot of evidence that 'putting the smallfolk to the sword' is SOP in westeros.

Sure, but unless you're Tywin you don't go out of your way to do so or elevate it to your primary strategy.

[Chaircat Meow]

Sure, but unless you're Tywin you don't go out of your way to do so or elevate it to your primary strategy.

Really, I thought most readers denied this?

[Maid So Fair]

Really, I thought most readers denied this?

Pretty much every single person arguing in this thread has stated repeatedly that they don't believe that Robb went to the Westerlands to hand out milk and cookies. Of course people die in wars. ETA: That doesn't mean Robb is in the same league as Tywin. Not even close.

[Chaircat Meow]

Pretty much every single person arguing in this thread has stated repeatedly that they don't believe that Robb went to the Westerlands to hand out milk and cookies. Of course people die in wars. ETA: That doesn't mean Robb is in the same league as Tywin. Not even close.

Putting the smallfolk to the sword means killing them when you attack their villages. In other words, not a Sherman march through Dixieland.

[Maid So Fair]

Putting the smallfolk to the sword means killing them when you attack their villages. In other words, not a Sherman march through Dixieland.

I'm no expert on American history, but what do you think happened to those who didn't appreciate having their homes and fields burned to the ground?